Shawn S

I’m taking about the old fashioned TRUCK-BASED SUV’s not the CAR-BASED ones like the MDX & LX300.
Most are RWD when 4WD isn’t engaged.

I’m not counting Full-Time AWD or those with systems that automatically send power where’s it’s needed.
All the big MONSTERS from Cadillac, Ford, Chevy & Dodge are RWD most of the time.

The smaller car-based “cute-utes” like the RAV4, CRV & Outlander are FWD most of the time.

Shawn S

Scrib

I did not know that...



:bubbarubb I learned something today!!!

rozello_RENAMED

I did drive a recent 330i in the snow with snow tires. It handled horribly. It also had a very harsh ride. One of my good friends owns a body shop that specializes in BMW's. He drives them all the time and his opinion is that they handle poorly in the snow and wet weather. Traction control is supposed to get you out of trouble, not compensate for a car that handles poorly. By the way my friend drives an accord. On another point, Consumer reports no longer reccomends the 3 series. It has worse than average reliability. This was confirmed by several mechanics I talked to when I was looking for a replacement for my legend. The BMW's had significant electrical problems among other things.

Crazy Bimmer

tru, but im talking about higher end cars, not economy cars

most
benz
bmw
infiniti

are all RWD.

Shawn S

The Cadillac Escalade is just a Chevy Tahoe with 30-grand worth of leather & Chrome added to it.
The Tahoe is built on a Pickup truck ladder frame.
And the “Hummer” H2 is just a Suburban under the fancy sheet metal.

The profit margin must be unbelievable on these suckers since people are paying 50-grand or MORE for them.

Shawn S

Shawn S

I passed lots of “high end” RWD Merc’s & Bimmers stuck on hills in the snow & ice this past winter.
All their fancy traction control was doing for them was keeping the rear wheels from spinning too fast.

Shawn S

Crazy Bimmer

then why do they still sell like hotcakes if they are such horrible cars to drive in winter?

rozello_RENAMED

When the car wheels spin in the snow because of traction control, you are supposed to turn it off for better traction. That's the instructions given at the acura dealer. Looks like tcs won't help those "high end" cars. I had the same experience as you last winter Shawn.

Shawn S

For the same reason people buy 4WD Navigator’s & Escalades in California and Florida ???

Crazy Bimmer

but SUVs arent horrble in cali and florida conditions..people buy them there for safty and replacment of minivans. So you cant use that as an example with this issue.

So why do people still buy RWD cars if they are HORRBILE in snow?

AcuraFan

Because some people want luxury over safety. Others buy them knowing RWD is not ideal for winter and therefore get other vehicles as well. Every single person I know that owns a RWD car also owns a FWD or AWD for the winter.

Crazy Bimmer

there is no point to argue with this... nothing i say will change your guys view on this.

No biggie to me.. i know first hand that my RWD is better than VSA thats in my fathers RL while driving in snow. And thats a fact from my experiences. So let it be.

hemants

"i know first hand that my RWD is better than VSA thats in my fathers RL while driving in snow. And thats a fact from my experiences."

Me thinks you confuse the usage of the word fact with opinion.

Crazy Bimmer

good point. My bad.

GreenMonster

Because some people have small penises

They're just trying to compensate with a large vehicle for other... ahhh... shortcomings they have

Maximized

Because its been driven into peoples heads for the last 20+ years. The people who think that modern rwd cars suck in the snow/rain are misinformed. IMO IF you know how to drive a RWD vehicle, it is superior to a FWD car in the snow. I have driven my moms 330i with Yoko ES100's in a couple of inches and had no problems.

Also, you guys are forgetting the most important factor.....TIRES. Most FWD cars are equipped with A/S M&S tires, where as RWD cars are most often equipped with a more summer orriented tire.

rozello_RENAMED

Maximized,

All my cars over the years whether front or wheel drive were equipped with A/S tires. Consistently the fwd cars handled better in bad weather. And I do know how to drive in the snow! The worst car by far is the BMW we just unloaded

1SICKLEX

Notice that list of FWD cars are cars that are appliances. They are like shoes, you need em.

If RWD WERE SO BAD in THE SNOW, BMW, Benz, JAG would have have FWD instead of RWD cause it snows HELLA LOT in Europe. The FWD snow argument is LAME.

The REASON for FWD was the OIL CRISIS in the 70s, car makers went to make cheaper, more fuel efficient, smaller cars. THAT is the reason, not cause of no dang snow.

Snow=TIRES and DRIVE SLOW. I've seen all sorts of accidents in FWD, 4x4 SUVs cause they drove too fast or had no snow tires, just as much as RWD wrecks.Dudes, most Naviators sold are RWD, rarely are any 4x4 and all Esclades are AWD. There is a HUGE difference in AWD and 4-WD.CorrectAlmost, it's a stretched Tahoe frame.

Dude, they make 30k off each H2 sold!

If you have not owned both FWD and RWD and if you haven't driven them in the snow, you have no idea of how silly some of this sounds.I'd much rather be stuck in the snow in a high-end car then driving by in a poser. VSC, TCS, etc, you have to take off in the snow if your stuck. The car won't move cause as soon as it spins it cuts the power and you won't move.

Worse come to worse put sandbags in your RWD car.

cusdaddy

All I can say is that my Acura CL wasn't a great car in the snow at all. It got stuck twice last winter. Yes, my tires were getting old, and Blizzak's would have made a world of difference, but stock, it wasn't great at all.

I wasn't going to get a car I won't enjoy as much just for the fact that a few days out of the year I won't be able to drive very well.

I'm driving my Z in the winter here. I live 100 feet from a major interstate and my job is 100 feet off an exit a few miles away. With Blizzak's and sandbags, I'll be fine.

BTW, in the wet, my Z is absolutely fine. I once fishtailed by being stupid (with Lou in the car), but driving normally and with TCS on, the car is a rock. I easily can drive to about 80% of the car's limits in the rain with no problems whatsoever. I actually spun my tires more in my CL from accelerating.

Wires

What I find (especially with the CL), is the front tires spin, and then you can't steer. Same thing happens on a RWD if you brake on ice, and lock up the front tires.

With the 6 speed and HLSD, I can have the same thing happen on wet roads too.

But, to each their own.

Shawn S

These are pretty FUNNY. You guys got any more ???


Shawn S

Maximized

Why do you find it funny? Learn how to drive a RWD car and its perfectly fine. My dad always tells me that his 66' Mustang with a 4:11 and Bias-ply tires was fine in Chicago winters.

Again, I find a RWD safer because you can steer the vehicle with the throttle and you can steer when traction is lost on the drive wheels. Try doing that in a FWD car and tell me what happens

Crazy Bimmer

dont mind Shawn, he thinks no one else has driven in snow besides him. :P

Shawn S

I give up – UNCLE – You guys are right – The entire FWD industry has been a giant conspiracy since the late 70’s.
And I guess all those RWD cars I’ve seen in the ditches all had bald tires and incompetent drivers.

In the words of Cosmo Kramer………. I’M OUT !!!

Shawn S

PS… Maybe if I Double Clutch ???

AcuraFan

Of course I've driven delivery in the worst of Minnesota winters in both types of cars so I wouldn't know...I've got a guy in Atlanta telling me RWD is just as good in the snow so I guess it must be true...
Of course the Minnesota state highway patrol records more accidents involving RWD in the winter...but that's ok. RWD is just as safe...

It just seems like the guys who support RWD as being just as safe have RWD-esteem issues. They can't handle it if someone bad mouthing their drive configuration of choice. So they romanticize RWD to the point of absurdity. I guess I'll have get some statistics for you. Would that help? Or are you just gonna feed me more of that "none of them know how to drive" drivel?

Here's the gist of it for me. I like RWD just fine...they're fun cars on the occasion that you push it to the limit. Just in the winter, I (along with a vast majority of Minnesotans) will steer clear of RWD...or steer around them when they get stuck in a snowbank.

Sdog2012

fellow minnesotan here, i agree with everything you said, RWD is horrible, my neghibor gets his sc300 stuck on his flat driveway all the time in the winter, every winter you can go to the bimmer and benz dealerships on any day and see tons and tons of crashed cars

mr. big

YAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!

AcuraFan

Hey Sdog, I tried PMing you quite some time ago but your box was full.

hemants

"The people who think that modern rwd cars suck in the snow/rain are misinformed. IMO IF you know how to drive a RWD vehicle, it is superior to a FWD car in the snow."

Absolutely, categorically 100% false.

"I have driven my moms 330i with Yoko ES100's in a couple of inches and had no problems. "

This may be true but the conclusion above does not follow.

Once again for those who missed it.

1. RWD without traction control and without winter tires = sux big time
2. RWD w traction control and winter tires = good enough for most situations
3. FWD w traction control and all seasons = may be adequate but not as good as 2.
4. FWD w traction control and winter tires = good
5. AWD w all seasons = may be adequate but not as good as 4
6. AWD w snow tires = fun!!!!!

Listen to me. Everyone has their own experience just like everyone has their own butt dyno that tells them how fast their car is. But the fact remains that ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL :

AWD is better than FWD is better than RWD in snow.

gto2050

You guys are not even mentioning experience. If I had grown up in the north and had been driving on snow all the time, I would probably have the same opinion. However, I have not. I have bee in NJ for 7 years after living in CA for 23 years. I don't have the experience that some of you have. FWD is a better vehcile for someone who is not experienced. But..... my Explorer is RWD except when in 4WD and I did not have to put it in 4WD but twice last winter.

When I lived in my house before the divorce, there were 3 hills. The roads were never plowed until the last possible moment. Only 4WD worked. Not FWD, not RWD.

Tom2

I only wanted to comment on this part of your post.

Your statement (#1) is too vague to be true or false.

It depends on:

1) the car. different RWD cars may have different traction characteristics. Not to mention differnet front/rear weight biases.

2) the tires. You say "winter" tires. By that do you mean real snow tires? Because I've had RWD cars with all season tires that were 100% acceptable in the snow.

3) Like GTO said-- a lot of people with RWD-based 4x4s find very little need to use their 4 wheel drive. That would tell you that the RWD portion of their drivetrain works pretty well in snow, wouldn't it?

AcuraFan

And when the first snow storm hit last year I saw numerous trucks within a short distance of each other on the freeway spinning out, losing control or fishtaling...at 20 mph...while my FWD had traction as pure as the driven snow.

It's all about what you experience. If you own a RWD and it's worked out well for you then that's great. A good deal of us just don't think it's enough. Sorry.

hemants

"2) the tires. You say "winter" tires. By that do you mean real snow tires? Because I've had RWD cars with all season tires that were 100% acceptable in the snow."

100% acceptable is a subjective term - I have no doubt that it is "good enough" but on dry pavement, the handling of a Suzuki swift is "good enough".

"3) Like GTO said-- a lot of people with RWD-based 4x4s find very little need to use their 4 wheel drive. That would tell you that the RWD portion of their drivetrain works pretty well in snow, wouldn't it?"

Again, "pretty well" is similar to "good enough". But some have drawn the conclusion that RWD is superior to FWD which is simply not true.

1SICKLEX

The day I read a magazine article where Car and Driver, Road and Track, EVO, etc states that they pick a FWD car as the best sports sedan cause of the way it drives in the snow is the day I move to Tibet and buy a FWD car to drive in the snow.

I have NEVER read an article stating that the car is an awesome car BUT watch out for snow months. So Car and Driver should have a 10 BEST list for "Cars that rule in the snow".

Get real.

If I lived in Minnesota and the snow was that bad, I'd be driving a AWD Audi or some AWD. If the snow is that bad, to hell with RWD AND FWD. Duh.

Tom2

Now YOU are being subjective. It would be foolish to say that EVERY FWD car is better than EVERY RWD car in snow. Don't you think it's entirely possible that there are RWD cars that would have better traction characteristics (in snow) than some FWD cars?

I wonder how everyone managed to get around in the snow before FWD was invented? Must've rode the horse or something....

AcuraFan

hemants

"The day I read a magazine article where Car and Driver, Road and Track, EVO, etc states that they pick a FWD car as the best sports sedan cause of the way it drives in the snow is the day I move to Tibet and buy a FWD car to drive in the snow."

That is pretty funny actually hehe.

I won't argue that RWD is superior to FWD in a sports sedan on dry pavement ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL.

But life is full of compromises and we are not all dedicated track drivers living in Florida :-) Nor are we Tibetan sherpa's driving up and down Mt. Everest.

So we have to face the music. The CLS and the 330 are not sports cars, they are sports sedans, the very design of which represents compromise. If you don't like compromise, buy two cars.

hemants

"Well, I hate to break it to you and all those who thing AWD is safer...it's not. "

AWD is without a doubt safer than FWD in snow (all else being equal) because it is more likely to be able to move in the direction you point it when you hit the gas. More forward traction = more safety, not just from a stop but also when you are moving.

But even AWD is a compromise. There is extra weight which you pay for in lost accelleration and lower gas mileage.

Tradeoffs gentlemen, tradeoffs.

Zapata

here we go again :shakehd:

AcuraFan

I'm sure some RWD cars can handle well in the snow. If they are balanced right and have good tires...sure, I can see them being decent.

But the issue here isn't about getting good traction so you can accelerate in the snow. The issue (for me anyway) is path control. A FWD car can pull it's way through a turn. A RWD can only push its way (and in some cases that boils down to "plowing" their way) through a turn. It doesn't matter how well a car is balanced...if the turning tires in a RWD car lose traction, you CANNOT turn. However, if a FWD loses traction on a turn, if you know how to apply the break and then accelerator at the proper times, you can usually pull through the turn. It is something impossible to do in a RWD car no matter how good your tires are or how well balanced your car is. But it's something that happens all the time in rural MN.

Oh, and about that "I wonder how everyone managed to get around in the snow before FWD was invented?" comment...all I can say is, as technology advances, so does safety.