Crazy Bimmer

1SICKLEX, why PM me when your mailbox is full :o

Gabo3k

If anything, the new A-Spec will compare more to the 5 series.

I don't know about the rest of you, but if I were to pay upwards of $50K for a well equiped 5 series that could get walked on by a $30K Acura, I would be furious...

If I had 50K, I would invest in a pre-owned Porsche Turbo, and not even consider the 5 series BMW.

For now, I am a happy owner of a 2001 CL-S that would probably walk on any BMW this side of a M3, M5, 540, etc.

pimpscls

value wise yea, but looks, and overall car qaulity bmw, no doubt

heyitsme

I don't see how they can be compared, like has been said already the price and options list are too different. If Acura package everything the 530 has into the TL then sure. Also some of the premium price comes from BMW designing a platform from the ground up for one model, where Acura as we know is still using versions of the accord platform.

Mr Hyde

The 5 series is the benchmark for sportiness in its class, for luxury Id say Audi or Lexus, but face it most of the people here at this site would take sport over luxury any day.

The TL is a better value for whats it got, but th e 530 is the better car of course. At a significant price premium, it very well should be.

Having said that though, in all honesty, I would never get a 530. A car that big and heavy needs more power IMO, so it would have to be at least a 540/5 at least to keep me happy. Being used to the power and acceleration in the TL-S, I couldnt go with anything less and still be happy.

SilverCL225hp

Actually I don't think I can elaborate, but I will try. First, the exterior look of the new TL is better than the new 5's, but this is only my opinion and very subjective. Second, the new 5's interior is way too simple and looks like a much cheaper car's interior. All I can see is a big screen and three buttons underneath the long strip of ugly wood, and then a big silver circular control knob right behind the transmission stick. In contrary, the new TL's interior is very modern and all the buttons are well organized. Third, I still don't see why BMW give up the traditional control format that one button does one job, instead, switch to that i-drive system. You don't need to play with a computer in your car, right? No matter how user-friendly that system is, not as stright forward as the traditional way. Fourth, the new TL is four inches shorter than the new 5, that length difference helps the parking manueuverability. Even though the rwd layout of the new 5 make the car more nimple, that advantage would only show when the driver push the car to very high speed, almost to the limit. Then to most people this advantage is not really a practical or tangible advantage. On paper the Acura has 270hp, while the 530i has only 225hp, which one you like more? To be frank, I trust Acura's reliablity more than BMW's. Those are the stuff we can see or feel, so they are very important to me. Outside look, inside look and use, speed, reliablity, TL wins. Handling, BMW wins but it is not that obvious, so I ignore this advantage that the BMW has. Also, the base TL already has all the features, but what does the base 530i come with? So you need to enlarge the price difference even more. To be honest, if you give me a 530i as a prize or something, I would sell it and buy a new TL(or TSX hehe) and save the rest of the money.

AcuraFan

A lot of people use this as an arguement. The 5 series is the benchmark. And I agree whole hartedly. But, the problem is, saying it's the "benchmark" doesn't automatically unbeatable. First off, the benchmark was set by previous generations of the 5 series...not the current gen. Second, if another car company sets their sights above said benchmark, there's a chance they can surpass it. So just saying "it's the benchmark" doesn't mean it's beyond reproach.

I'm still seeing the same things from the pro-5 series croud.
It's better because it's a 5 series and therefore better.
It's better because it handles better.
etc...
So far, the pro-TL croud seems to have more evidence in their favor (though it's mostly personal preference stuff on either side).

Sarlacc

Bottom line is BMW is truly the ultimate driving machine. Almost anyone that has actually owned/driven a 5 series in any form or fashion with will agree with me here. Those car are worth every penny.

I honestly think what a lot of this is coming down to it looks.

The new 5 looks like ass, the interior is even worse. very non functional (very non bmw)

Where as the new TL looks awesome in and out, and in a 6spd probably has the edge on a 530 for pure speed.

Acuras are great, I love them, but they dont drive like bimmers.

with all that said, because of what bimmer did with its desgn I choose Acura.

TL does have some other advatages ( Nav, and soundsystem) but i wouldnt sneeze at bimmers systems either.

Now as i said earlier, Id reconsider if we were talking about a 545, M5. Looks aside those cars have pure power to match bimmers amazing ride.

SO its pretty subjective but to me the TL>530. Why, mainly design.

lou_RENAMED

what if we spoke about safety, re-sale value, climate control, braking...etc. etc.

there is much more than just 0-60 speed.

are both same interior space ?? what about rear seat

heyitsme

How do you put forth evidence in a comparison like this. To compare each car at the top of their game you're looking at a 60k car and a 37k car, already rediculous. Then you bring in the options, logic7 13 speaker sound system from the 7-series, 6-speed automatic/6-speed smg, 20 way power seats (driver and passenger) with 4way paower lumbar, heads up diplay, adaptive cruise, etc etc.

Same can be said about the Tl argument, ohh its faster in a straightline, looks better. A 6-speed TL is going to be faster than the new Lexus Gs300 too, some will say the tl looks better , whats Acura going to better than Lexus also?

Sarlacc

Well,

I am aware there is more then pure speed and I have given road handling and driving to the bimmer, twice already, it is the ultimate driving machine form a drivers POV.

Both vehicles are very safe. I would put at about even. Yes bimmer does incorporate "newer" safety stuff. But after wrecking to other hondas and walking, well They are both VERY safe vehicles.

Resale value, about the same, bimmer will be higher cause it costs more, but really holds teh same or maybe 1-2% higher.

Both have atuo climate control, both dual, I wouldnt sit here and say Bimmer has better climate.

Interior space, both are pretty roomy, the back seats in 5s are nothing to write home about either. Both utilize space very well. And i will give this one to Acura, actually. Acuras interior is very very very FUNCTIONAL. as makes great use of storage.

Bangle destroyed bimmers driver oriented interior for some piece of shit NON-functional design, even the interiors of the doors suck.

So like i said, because of design TL > 528/530

Crazy Bimmer

do you guys forget the type of technolgy that went into the new 5series? It far beyond the TL, acura is always playing catch up with the germans.


Does the TL have

iDrive system with on-board computer and controller

Engine-speed-sensitive, variable-assist, vaiable-ratio power steering

6-speed Sequential Manual Gearbox (SMG)

Head-up Display(HUD)

Active Cruise Control (ACC)

Xenon Adaptive Headlights

Park Distance Control (front and rear) with graphic display

Heated steering wheel

Active Roll Stabilization(ARS)

Active Steering with Servotronic power assist

bunch of others also. When it comes to gadets, the acura is plan and simple, they dont take any risks.

This is why the 5-sieres is the benchmark for others to follow

Sarlacc

Which is why i said it really comes down to design.

I dont care that bimmer made all these improvement on what is already imo the greatest model of sedan out there. The fact is you have an ugly extrerior and a non-functional interior. A really well thought out and executed interior could have saved my opinion of this car.

This is why i said id only overlook that stuff for a 545/M5

AcuraFan

Some of those things can be considered "hinderences" more than improvements (iDrive for example). And you can go the other way with the TL...
Does the 530 have Bluetooth and DVD-A, etc?

But now you and Sarlacc are giving some data to back up the "ultimate driving machine" claim...that's what I was looking for...I was getting tired of the "it's the best because it's the best" arguement I was hearing so much.

Next question (and this is reserved for those who actually have experience with the subject)...
How do the transmissions compare? Stick to stick, auto to auto? (don't bring SMG into this because that is obviously not part of the question.)

Sarlacc

Well when I had a 5 i had an auto

But my friend has a 02 540 6spd. And the 5 manuals are different then the other bimmer manuals (save the M5.) The cluth kind of sucks actually.

It has this weird feeling, if you press it to the floor and start to release it has this "pop" half way up, then continues to engage, Its hard to get used make smooth transistions.

One of the few mods my friend got was to have the bearing in the clutch drilled therefore making the clutch very smooth.
He also put in a short throw shifter cause it was not a close ratio shifter by any means.

Now of course i dont know how this has changed to the new gen.

So, out of the box, im inclined to give the manual tranny in the TL top dog. But like i said bimmer might have rethought this and made it more like their 3 series manulas (smooth clutch, no "pop")

PS: i forgot to mention earlier, i think idrive has pretty much been a flop.

Crazy Bimmer

But see thats all the TL has over the 5series, is the bluetooth and dvd-audio. But even thats not really advanced over the 5-series since the 530 still can come with

Logic7 sound system with 13 speakers, Surround Sound, Digital Sound Processing (including two subwoofers)

And im sure BMW has a intergrated phone like they have always offered.

Crazy Bimmer

I wish i could comment on the manual vs manual, but i never driven the 6-speed TL yet. They only had the auto that i drove.

Sarlacc

You just have to drive one and you'll understand. It has a road presence and feel thats unexplainable.

I owned an 85 5, my father had a 90 5, and my uncle had a 97, and my friend an 02.

3 gens of 5s, each one trumping the other and the one thing. They all felt and drove the same but more and more refined with each new gen. The amazingness of a 5 series just takes the words out my mouth. Its truly awesome.

Its a shame the 5th gens are so fucking ugly.

Sarlacc

Bmw sound systems are pretty fucking amazing in their own right no doubt. its just if you reall need to care about 5.1 or not. its a nice touch though.

But acura is the only company with blue tooth. bmws intergrated phone is some service you have to get to use it. More user friendly for that goes to acura.

Plus the new TL dash is functional and ergonomic, really well thought out. The new 5, well its dash is a waste, period.

Crazy Bimmer

honestly, you cant even test drive one to understand. You really need to own one, theres just somthing about a bmw thats makes me giddy.

Crazy Bimmer

agreed.

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

Why would an enthusiast buy a 530?

Crazy Bimmer

Slap on a supercharger and you are putting down more than 300hp to the rear wheels. Thats the only thing of the car that is lacking for car enthusiasts.

njzprettyboy

i used to think that 525 was a waste of money...till i drove it...that thing is way smoother than any TL will ever be...I did miss all the rattles from my TL though....its very quiet inside...it also handles way better....but its also a more expensive car...so its like comparing a Benz CLK500 to a infiniti G35c...which one would you pick>>>

soopa

wow. this is retarded... first off. i'll touch on many of the points where this statement is wrong below.

but... most of the components you mention and many you dont ARE available on Hondas elsewhere. they arent offered her for marketing/cost reasons... has nothing to do with playing catchup.

Acura was the FIRST with a Navigation system, the FIRST with DVD based system, the FIRST to integrate climate controls and navi.

Everything else on "iDrive" isnt much of an innovation. Glorified trip computer.

Acura has been offering Torque and Speed sensitive steering standard since at least 1998. No it is not as ADVANCED as BMW's NEW SYSTEM. But they had it BEFORE BMW. NOT PLAYING CATCH UP. BMW had to catch up and out do.

Not available. BUT... Acura was the first with a shiftable automatic... ahead of BMW. A major step towards the acceptence of SMG.


Regardless... this is about TL vs 530...


To get SMG in a 530 requires a $4800 package! Bringing MSRP OVER 50 GRAND!!!


I'm sorry... but you are no longer comparing Apples to Apples at mid-30s vs 50's.



WOW... BIG DEAL. Pontiac had HUD over a decade ago. Cadillac has been employing it readily for years in their newer cars.

You can get `HUD` units for $20 from fuking Pep Boys.

The BMW system is cool. But again... part of a $2800 package requiring navi. Again bringing 530 w/ Leather OVER 50K!!!


BMW did not invent this. Lexus and Mercedes have been using it for far longer than BMW.

Not available in Acura no.

$2200 package in 530.

Acura offered Xenon in the US before BMW. STANDARD. $800 option on 530... but yes you get a couple more gimmicks.

Nope. Not available by Acura here. Offered first by Honda in Japan/Europe ahead of BMW tho.

But yea... Acura of North America will be playing catch up to BMW on this.

Not Availble with Acura. But this is not a `technology` factor. This is simply cost cutting. $750 package on 530.

BMW wins.

I think we already touched on this.


Hmm... Surround Sound DVD Audio, 8" navi, etc etc etc... including a whole shitload of STANDARD components that are part of several thousand dollar packages on a 530.

Not true at all. The 5-series fell far behind, and is just now playing catch up to many competitors who have had much of whats NEW on the 5 available for many years.

soopa

BTW i love the 5 series. I would rather have a fully equipped 530 than a 2004 TL.


But lets all be realistic here. Jesal you went way out of bounds.

Bluto

A 5 series is a better car. But it cost more.

If a 525 was 33k, I'd take it over the TL.

greyjhu

They are two totally different cars, and people who want to compare them, stating "which car" is better, have some numb nuts.

Reliability, maintenance, handling, overall cabin/exterior styling, and price/cost are all very different between the two. Apples to Oranges.

Jaydef03

i think the new 5 looks a hell of a lot better than the Acura inside and esp outside. have you seen a 530 in nice rims and tints? its jaw dropping. cant really say teh same ab the TL. Of course the TL is a better bang for the buck, but you are comparing a Honda to a BMW.

Crazy Bimmer

Adam, my 1998 sebring had sport shift auto in it......

sensitive bastard

Gabo3k

Come on man, are you really sold on that "Ultimate driving machine" marketing talk?

Do you also believe that Lexus' goal is achieving perfection, as they state on their commercials?

Have you ever driven a Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus?

BMW should state "ultimate driving machine in our class".

Shawn S

Soopa makes some great comparisons in his post, but don’t forget if you buy the BMW you instantly have that “I got a bigger dick then you” attitude thing going for you.

AcuraFan

I've seen the new 5 series in person and you're right...it is jaw dropping. And once I regain control of my jaw all I can say is "wtf?" followed by "I can't believe they destroyed such a beautiful car". And then a couple of these...:sqnteek:

(admittedly, I haven't seen it with rims and tints...but nothing can save this monstrocity)

GreenMonster

That reminds me...

What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW...



on the porcupine, the pricks are on the outside

That being said, I'd even take a 330 over the new TL. The price difference btween them is less then it was last year and the new TL's looks just don't do anything for me.

soopa

if it was a near fully equipped 525...... I would too.


my point was simply that... to get similar technology of the TL in a 525.... you are going to be paying more than 55,000 MSRP plus taxes and LUXURY tax (not due on TL) for a what... 180hp car.



hardly a comparison if you ask me.




but if money was no object................. and looks/interior werent subjective......... based on badges and gadgets alone...... i think id pick the bimmer. oh.... and if the bimmer had compareable power.

soopa

yup. wasnt saying in that post that either is better than the other....

was simply disputing Jesal's DISinformation. he does that alot when he thinks everyones got his back...

dunno why we cant just stick to the facts.

Sarlacc

As previously stated, I owned a 5 series, and have driven several other bimmers. Yes i believe that statment when i say. It is the perfect blend of sport, comfort and luxury.

Since my parents have owned 3 Lexus over the years and checking out every new model since then, yes, i believe their goal is to try and acheive perfection, they arent far from it.

Yes I have driven a Lotus. Those last three are all pure sports cars. A BMW is a sports car, a luxury car, and a practical everyday car all in one. I stand by the statement of ultimate driving machine.

Sarlacc

I never took this as a who is better arguement. We all know who is better (coughbimmercough)

I took this thread as for cost and options and looks which would you rather own, if you had a choice.

And over a 530 I still say a TL.

Crazy Bimmer

you know me so well lover :-*

Gabo3k

Based on what you said, then you too realize that BMW is just the ultimate driving machine in its class, and not just the ulimate driving machine, right!

Also, you do realize that perfection is humanly impossible, right! And even if perfection was attainable, Lexus would not be the company to achieve it...