Scooter

here's a breakdown on brand, size, rating, and price based on TireRack's specs...before i begin, my search criteria is focussed on ALL-SEASON high performance tires since i live in snow country, so i guess this is geared more towards those who care about 4-season tires...these tires are either 225 or 235 series and <= 50 sidewall height...WR rated or better...17 inch ONLY...they must fit on stock Type-S wheels...here goes.

Dunlop SP Sport 5000
(http://www.tirerack.com/tires/dunlop/du_s5000.jsp)
235/45/WR17 $130 each

Michelin Pilot Sport A/S
(http://www.tirerack.com/tires/michel...t_sport_as.jsp)
235/45/YR17 $216
235/50/WR17 $212

Pirelli P7000 SuperSport
(http://www.tirerack.com/tires/pirelli/pi_p7000.jsp)
225/45/ZR17 $140
235/45/WR17 $144
235/40/ZR17 $150

Sumitomo HTR+
(http://www.tirerack.com/tires/sumitomo/su_htrplus.jsp)
225/45/WR17 $97
235/40/WR17 $98
235/45/WR17 $101

Yokohama AVS dB
(http://www.tirerack.com/tires/yokohama/yo_avs_db.jsp)
235/45/WR17 $144

Toyo FZ4
(http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines/high_perf/fz4.html)
225/45/ZR17 ~$135

that's bout all i could find at this point...if i missed anything, please feel free to throw yours in...keep in mind that the ECSTA's and Proxies are NOT considered all-season, which is y i didn't include them...this is prob the list from which i will now choose the tires for my baby...im just way too scared to use 3-season tires during the winter.

fbazakos

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...eMake=Michelin

check it ...

fast_daddy_car

Don't forget to take into consideration the tires load rating.

The Mich Pilot Sport A/S in 235/45 has a 93 rating at 51psi, the stock tires are 93-extra load at 35psi. The 235/50 have no problem with the load rating, but due to the tire size your spedo may be off as much as 6%.

The 235 size seems to fit the stock rims, but the bottom will bulge out a bit as you are undersizing the rims by 1/2 inch.

So far I am leaning towards the toyo FZ4 in 225/45. Can handle the weight, will mount fine on stock 7" rims, and spedo will only be off by 1.9%.

Scooter

u might find some good deals on tires here:

the Toyo's are $125

http://www.victoriatire.com/

CLS16

Scooter: Thanks for all the good info. It looks like a lot of us are looking to get new tires soon.

Samer007

What about those Falkens $107/ tire

Or the Nitto 555

Eggplant-EX

Excellent thread.

My concern is wear (obviously), load factor and being as close to tire size as possible (preferably a little over). That way, you odometer will be incorrect in the right sense (it is recording less mileage than actually driven).

my 2 cents

Scooter

and thanks to Fotis and Fast_daddy, u can really get a good perspective on which tire seems to b a standout among the All-seasons...my feeling is that the Toyo FZ4's are top choice, followed by the Dunlops, then the Michelin's and Pirelli's...i just can't see myself spend over $200 a tire on the Michelins, and the Pirelli's i feel a little uneasy about given its ratings and the comparison test Fotis gave out.

EricL

If your are in an area that only gets light snow and ice, the Yoko AVS dBs are great tires. They are a bit "outclassed" in heavy snow areas by the Dunlops, but for some of the people that need "medium" snow duty and a very nice tire in the other 3-seasons, they should at least consider the ABS dBs.

I got them for my wife's car (205/60VR-15) and they replaced tires that were very similar to our OEM Michelins. They are NOT Toyo T1S Proxies, but they are very quiet, the turn-in and steering feel is excellent, wet traction is excellent, they are dead quiet (even on the slick cement of parking garages), and dry traction is very good. They are excellent 4-season tires!

I just wouldn't put them on a car that was in "Blizzard Central"...

AztecRol

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for all your hard work Scooter!!! I was gonna join in on it like we did on the lights, but I'll let you ride this one out!!! Maybe I will do performance tires!! LOL

Scooter

i understand everything u said, but do u really think they can perform like the FZ4's?? what i, and prob most other people in this area of the country, want is the peace of mind of an all-season tire with the sportiness of an ultra high-performance of Z-rated summer tires...can the Yoko's fill those shoes???

RidinLow

Dude, LI is hardly snow country! We got what, an inch of snow this year?

I've tried the FZ4's in the snow & they really suck. They also suck in the dry. But then again, I guess that's how all season tires are.

~G
(winter tires for winter, summer tires for summer, R compounds for autox)

Scooter

it's called the blizzard of '96...fact is u can't predict what a winter will hold snow wise...so rather than gamble with summer tires in the winter, i'd rather have the peace of mind

and if the FZ4's suck so bad, i guess im back to the drawing board.

EricL

Are the Yoko AVS dBs are as good as the best 3-season tires? NO!

The tires they replace were Goodyear RS-As (as I said, they are very similar to the Michelins in a lot of ways).

Since I haven't tried the FZ4s, I don't have a clue about those tires. I only mention that the Yokos are tires that I would put on my car if I HAD to run 4-season tires with light snow. They ride great, have great wet and dry traction, they are quiet and the steering is amazing. They are sticky, but there is no way you can compare the stick of these tires to my T1S Proxies. OTOH, they perform so much better than the RS-As they replaced, and they are so quiet and sticky for 4-season tires, I really like what they offer.

(I really hate squealing pig tires, so I really like them for that alone. Now couple in the good wear life and the bonus of handling a light snow and they would do fine for me in areas where I didn't feel like packing dedicated snow tires.)

You would have to run them in a 235/45-17 for the 93 load rating *and* they would be a bit "thick" on the stock rim.

It's only my opinion for a particular situation -- that being a user who wants a tire that is very close to summer-only performance, but will take a bit of snow (A drive on my T1S Proxies in the snow would be deadly!)

If you don't give a $hit about ride quality, steering feel, and noise, take a few points away from them.

JRock

So is the FZ4 the all-season version of the T1-S?

I'm so confused.

I just wish there was "A Tire Company" and it made "235/45 V-rated All-season extra load rating" tires. WTF.

EricL

The FZ4 is an all-season 97XL tire (in the 235/45-17). I just haven't run the tire, so you need to ask the other people that have how it works...


I know that table says that the tire is not reinforced (see www.toyo.com), but it has the 97 rating *and* the Toyo people seem to have real trouble putting the right information in the tech. spec. pages! (They screwed-up the info on my tire in the new table too.)

If you want to double check, call Toyo and ask if the 235/45-17 FZ4 has the reinforced casing (XL equivalent). All the tires that have the reinforced casing have high load ratings. For example, the Toyo T1S Proxy in the 215/50-17 only has a load rating of 91 (and I know that it isn't reinforced). The 97 rating on the FZ4 is the same rating marked on my T1S. (I looked at the sidewall of my tires and checked with more than one Toyo engineer...)


BTW -- the tire is W rated for speeds ABOVE 168 MPH and better than V rated.

JRock

Okay so what's the diff. b/w T1-S and FZ4 then? I'm lost. Is one all-season and one not?

Btw, is everyone comparing how well these tires perform to some "Golden Dream Tire" or to the stock tires?

I want to know if something performs better than stock - that is all i care about. I'm not expecting to pull a G on the skidpad.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

Ok Z4 is an all-season ultra high performace tire. It is better than the stock michelin. If have snow/frezzing rain/ice in your area you only need 1 set of tires, get this one.

Toyo T1-S is a non-snow tire, great performance, does not last too much compared to stock michelin. 10x better than stock in terms of handling. NO SNOW!!!

I have a set of 18" Nittos and 16" Blizzaks MZ-02.... If you can afford $2300 you can get those too.... Best of both worlds.

EricL

AS said -- T1S 3-season... And it doesn't wear out as said. I know, since I have them. They have a very high wear index and stick like epoxy in wet and dry (never snow). I'm going to buying more of them if and when I need them -- they are that good.

The FZ4 -- 4-season... And I don't know how good it is.

BTW -- the comparison of the 235/45-17 T1S proxies is relative to the stock tires (no mods). The difference was: stock tires -- I wondered how I was going to live with the car on smooth/new pavement without dying from understeer. When I put on the Toyos, I could get so much grip that I run out of energy from the G loads on long stretches through some of the longer parks -- OK...
(Most people will ask to stop long before the tires make a peep and (I run them at 40PSI/39PSI (front/rear) AND I got them for road performance, not drag racing.)

RidinLow

Scooter, I meant the FZ4's suck in winter conditions compared to any snow tire out there. And they squeal like pigs in the dry... just like any all season tire. Getting a set of nice aftermarket rims with summer tires and putting winter tires on the stock rims (or putting summer tires on the stock rims and getting steel wheels with snows) is the only way to ensure that you're wearing the proper shoes to the party.

If anybody's ever tried snow tires in the snow, you'll know what I'm talking about. Personally, I refuse to drive a car with snow tires if it's snowing.

But, if you must have just one set of tires, make it the Dunlop SP5000. They're not so bad for light snow duty and they perform better in the wet, dry, & autox than the P7000SS.

Oh, and I'd recommend the AVS dB for all you guys concerned with luxury.

Scooter

very simple question...does this ALSO apply to the 225/45/ZR17?? someone mentioned earlier that the 235 series bulged out just a bit, so i was really bent on the 225 series...in addition, i noticed how the 225 and 235 series varies on the chart with all the other specs...i hope this doesn't raise further issues with the quality of tire u get

i would say no, the FZ4's cannot b compared to the T1-S since it's an apples to oranges comparison...one's sticky as hell since it's a 3-season, and the other is not as sticky since it's a 4-season tire.

im shocked at 2 things...1, Toyo fudges up their specs page on the web...that doesn't give me much comfort in the information im gathering...and 2, that opinions on the FZ4's vary by such a wide margin (i.e. some people like it as an all-season alternative to stock, yet some people absolutely hate them b/c they don't offer the kinds of traction and performance in all-season conditions)...so now im a bit taken back in my decision...even tho the Dunlops don't "look" cool like the FZ4's, if they're gonna offer safer driving, i might just change my mind...but im still slightly leaning on the Toyo's.

Bluto

I've checked around other Forums and people have had bad experiences with all of the tires mentioned (except one). Look at Audi forums. They have been discussing Performance All Season tires for a very long time.

The Michelin A/S has not been around long enough for people to put high miles on. But, many people have switched over from Dunlop and Pirelli to this tire and highly recommend it. If you believe what you read, it is far more advanced than any other high performance all season.


With the Michelin, the only negative is cost. But, if it last twice as long.....

www.tourc.ca

First off, hello everyone... I'm new to the board, and just purchased my CL first of this month... anyways.....

I'm a big tire person, and believe in saftey first, and since the tires on your car are the only thing between you and the road, I feel they are a huge concern.

Let me say, that the ALL SEASON rating by tire manufacturers is sometimes very misleading, and the M+S on the sidewall isn't always Mud and Snow..... sometimes it stands for MUD & SAND which is all that's required for a tire to get an ALL SEASON rating for California. Unfortunatley, the tire company's sell that same tire very much farther NORTH and into canada with the same rating.

I have personally owned a set of Toyo FZ4's on an Eagle Talon (Mitsubishi eclipse i think for US members) As far as All season goes in California or other warm climates and places with VERY LITTLE SNOW!, I'm sure they would fit the bill fine, as they were very nice tires in the rain and summer. I live in Ontario, Canada, and when the snow hit that year with the FZ4's on, I might as well of had the T1-S's... which I had on a Camry Sport at one time. The FZ4's are not going to perform at all very well in any considerable amount of cold weather and snow, not to mention how friggin hard and bumpy they got in the winter when they froze.

Anyways, over the years of all my tire purchases, the few things I've learned is that there's no such thing as an ALL SEASON tire for snow, rain, and performance.... the words snow & summer performance are a contradiction in terms as far as I'm concerned. The only route to go is a dedicated snow tire, which there are plenty of good ones (I've tried the Nokia's both Ice & snow, Bridgestones both ice & snow compound, & the Yoko's). I feel that is the only way to be truly safe, and enjoy your car in all seasons. When summer comes, I throw a good rain/dry tire on, and off to the races......

Just 2 days after purchasing the CL we had a pretty good storm where I live, and I got stuck at the end of my driveway with the all season crap that came with the car. The next day My buddy at a tire shop, swapped them for some Yoko Gaurdex snow tires... not my first choice in snow's, but the only one which would be close to the same circumfrance of the originals..... for the haki's or blizzaks I would have had to purchase a new rim and I wanted to use the stock rims for winter rims. (Yoko Guardex 225/45/r17 Hrated) I now zip by most on bad roads, and rarley even notice that there's snow on the ground.

Anyways... kinda rambling... Main point.... the Toyo FZ4's suck in snow.... (sidenote: the T1-S's are even worse, and nothing short of a death trap....... got caught once offguard and too lazy to change over to snow's.... was lucky to get home alive)

till next time!


Dave-

JRock

Okay so what is an all-season tire (because changing wheels and tires is annoying) that is better than the stock michelins performance-wise, (but obviously not one of those ones that claims to be all hardcore performance because then they have no snow capability)? That's all I want.

Bluto

The stock tire is a Grand Touring All Season tire.

Any Performance or High Performance All Season tire will perform better.

Which one is the best? From what I've read, the Michelin A/S has my vote.

I have not owned any, but the Michelin is the tire I would buy.

Scooter

it seems the Dunlops, Pilot Sports, and Yoko's are the front runners now

FZ4's seem to b fading fast

fast_daddy_car

But how are the FZ4 compared to the stock tires in the snow? Better or worse? The 225 size is close to stock (1.9% difference), can handle the xl, and looks fine on stock 7" tires.


I like the advertizing on the pilot a/s, but the only sizes we can go with (due to weight factors) are:
- 225/50zr17 94w (spedo will be off 3%)
- 235/55zr17 99w (spedo off by 8%)
- 235/50zr17 96w (spedo off by 5.5%)
(the 235/45 has a weight rating too low, 93 @ 51psi, its not xl)


With the dunlop sp5000, our only option is the 235/45zr17 93, but the weight rating is too low, 93 @ 51psi. (Our stock tires are 93@35psi or XL rating)
http://www.dunloptire.com/products/t...=sp_sport_5000


Any other ideas?

Scooter

i'm pretty much tapped out...i can't think of any other company that has all-seasons...makes me wonder...how good are our stocks in snow compared to others...it seems we're busy comparing other tires to stocks, but can anyone offer opinions on our stocks in light snow/moderate snow/rain???

Bluto

According to Michelin:

Plus 0 225/45ZR17 90Y $244 RRBL DIR 35 35 PSI *
Plus 0 225/50ZR17 94W $236 RRBL DIR 32 32 PSI

*Inflation greater than O.E. specification required to meet load requirements.

Members here run tires that do not meet the load index requirement. I think Astro runs Pirelli P7000 SUPERSPORT 235/40ZR18 85W.

The stock speedo is not exact anyway. Mine reads a little high. A 3% diameter increase would make it correct.

www.tourc.ca

The stock tire that come with the CL's are useless in the snow to the point were I got stuck at the end of my driveway for 15 minutes. There is absolutley no aggression in the tread for snow or ice. They're fine if you take it carefull in moderate snow... (ie: it's snowing, but the roads are just wet, or lightly covered) but in an actual snow fall were theres snow covered roads to any depth the tires are garbage. Anybody that has to face snow is much better getting a snow tire combo for the winter, and a rain/performance tire for the summer. It doesn't really cost more this way (only up front) because you only ride on each set for 1/2 as long each year and they last you twice as long... I usually get 3 or even 4 seasons out of my snow tires, and about the same with my summers, but I am an aggressive driver, so that doesn't help. A moderate driver should get even longer out of a good tire.

I don't know a good ALL SEASON tire because I feel the term itself is only a marketing tactic, and not a description of the tires capabilities therefore having never driven on an all season for very long. My stock tires were replaced with snow tires on the stock rims 3 days after buying the car. As far as I'm concerned the stock ALL SEASON tire, and most other ALL SEASON tires are useless, and only hindering mine, and my family's saftey. With only a few square inches of contact on each tire, it's the only thing between the car and the road, and in my opinion is not something that should be compromised.

If anyone would like advise on a good snow tire, I've had many... or even summer/rain tires I've had Bridgestones, Toyo's, Yoko's, Michliens.... etc....

Dave

Nashua_Night_Hawk

Discount tires had an ad for the Guradex 721 in stock size 215/50/17, however, no such tire exist. I wished if I had the chance to get those instead of bying my blizzaks...

But the Blizzaks are great on snow and suck for High Speed and Dry driving.

www.tourc.ca

I've got Yoko Guardex 721's on my stock CL-S rims... I can't remember, but their either 215or225/45/17 H rated and they work great..... I'm actually quite impressed with the tire.

I had favoured the Bridgestone Blizzak Snow tire (not the ice compound one... which sucks IMO) and had not like my last pair of YOKO snow's, but this was the ONLY snow tire that would fit the stock rim, and it's damn good. I'm overly impressed.

Dave

Bluto

Dave,
I agree with you 100%. They should call ALL SEASON tires ALL TEMPERATURE tires. We don't get enough snow here to justify snow tires, unless you HAVE TO drive in the snow. I stay home when it snows.

All Seasons can get by in 1-2" of snow/slush. Anything more is pushing your luck. They don't perform as well as a summer tire, but are a good compromise.

fast_daddy_car

I'll look into local prices on the Mich Pilot A/S in 225/50. Meets all the requirements, and appears that there will be a positive effect on the spedo.

What is the difference between 225/45 and 225/50. Are they so close that you can't tell by looking at them, or is it obvious that one is wider/taller than the other, etc??


for the quality of the stock tires, when I first had them they were fine, gripped well in dry and wet. Snow you did have to take your time. Now they are in their second season, and you have to watch it a bit in the rain, and snow is now iffy. Very easy to spin these tires, and with sways and some effort to slide in them.

EricL

Well, I would agree that a T1-S should never be driven in the snow. I also spent a bunch of time around Reno, in lots of snow and ice with 4-season tires (10” of snow and –30-degrees F). They worked fine in "soft" snow. Any of the 4-season tires I have owned were useless on ice (I hope this isn't news to anybody).

There is a trade-off that most people will make regarding a 4-season tire and I'm not sure how many people will "expect" a 4-season tire to "play" on that new Audi commercial with the Audi (with AWD) leading the snow plow (better be some soft snow).

Funny, you are the first person who really thinks the MXM4s suck (I noticed a bunch of reviews by people who were horrified with the MXV4s on other Acuras in snow conditions and went out of their way to point out how dangerous they are...) (I’m not claiming that they are great, but there are people who like them for all-season [go figure].)

There are people here that claim the MXM4s are ok in the snow... I have to presume that there is a very wide variation in snow conditions, temps, and pavement that contribute to the varied opinions on just how good or bad various all-season tires are. The fact that you are seeing “extreme” conditions and live in Canada, should at least point to your being a “sentinel” for “extreme” conditions. The fact that you don’t give an alternative to the FZ4 sounds like you’re advocating a “snow tire or nothing” approach…

Finally, just so you don't think I'm nutz, I would put 16" or 17" wheels with Blizzacs on in a millisecond if faced with life in snow country (I do value my safety) and there is nothing like compounds that are made to "cut" into the ice/snow to make a tremendous difference.

So, that leaves the problem of what is the best 4-season tire... And the answer is it depends on the conditions and a ton of variables related to the milieu.

Example, for here in So Cal, if I need a quick trip to the snow, I’ll take the YOKO AVS dBs on my wife’s car. (The emphasis being on mostly 3-season use with only occasional/rare use of the medium grade snow properties)

EricL

The 225/45-17s in the T1S have the reinforced casing. I'm guessing, but I believe the FZ4s do to (as I said, call to make sure. I have told the people at Toyo that their old site was screwed-up and they just made it worse; it’s a good thing the tire people are better than their "tech data"/”web content” people.)

The 225s in the T1S are an easier fit than the 235s (45-17 series). The 235s are a tad wide for the 7" rims -- they will work (in the case of the T1S)

I hope you realize that it will be a number of years before tomorrow’s all-season tires are as sticky as today’s 3-season tires. (You have to go with a compound that has to accept broader conditions and considering the types of surfaces and temps in just 3-seasons, you're asking a lot from a tire. The new Pilot A/S use a "mixed-soup" technology, where different parts of the tire have different compounds and siping to accommodate the varying surfaces, textures, and temps -- this is probably the newest tech tire for all-season out there...)

I would "lighten-up" about Toyos poor web-site behavior/habits being a reflection on their tire quality. I knew there were errors on the web site, but I bought the tire (T1S) for the rubber on it, not for the person(s) that "totaled" their web site (for all I know, some 3rd party could have done the job; it is unacceptable, but I wouldn't start drawing unsupported conclusions based on web site design/content!

IMO, buy the tires for their performance first – looks come second (re: Dunlops)


For the record, I don't have the FZ4 (I've mentioned this) and don't care to try the tire (I buy the make not the brand...)

EricL

Well, I would agree that a T1-S should never be driven in the snow. I also spent a bunch of time around Reno, in lots of snow and ice with 4-season tires (10” of snow and –30-degrees F). They worked fine in "soft" snow. Any of the 4-season tires I have owned were useless on ice (I hope this isn't news to anybody).

There is a trade-off that most people will make regarding a 4-season tire and I'm not sure how many people will "expect" a 4-season tire to "play" on that new Audi commercial with the Audi (with AWD) leading the snow plow (better be some soft snow).

Funny, you are the first person who really thinks the MXM4s suck (I noticed a bunch of reviews by people who were horrified with the MXV4s on other Acuras in snow conditions and went out of their way to point out how dangerous they are...) (I’m not claiming that they are great, but there are people who like them for all-season [go figure].)

There are people here that claim the MXM4s are ok in the snow... I have to presume that there is a very wide variation in snow conditions, temps, and pavement that contribute to the varied opinions on just how good or bad various all-season tires are. The fact that you are seeing “extreme” conditions and live in Canada, should at least point to your being a “sentinel” for “extreme” conditions. The fact that you don’t give an alternative to the FZ4 sounds like you’re advocating a “snow tire or nothing” approach…

Finally, just so you don't think I'm nutz, I would put 16" or 17" wheels with Blizzacs on in a millisecond if faced with life in snow country (I do value my safety) and there is nothing like compounds that are made to "cut" into the ice/snow to make a tremendous difference.

So, that leaves the problem of what is the best 4-season tire... And the answer is it depends on the conditions and a ton of variables related to the milieu.

Example, for here in So Cal, if I need a quick trip to the snow, I’ll take the YOKO AVS dBs on my wife’s car. (The emphasis being on mostly 3-season use with only occasional/rare use of the medium grade snow properties)

EricL

For latest and greatest tech and snow -- Michelin A/S

For people who want a great tire with occasional (light) snow -- Yoko AVS dBs (Got these on wife's car and they are excellent for an all-season tire; IMO -- much better than the MXM4s)

Scooter

yeah looks like im now leaning on the Michelin's or Dunlops...altho the Dunlops don't have the most attractive of tread patterns (which is y the Michelin's are in the picture also), what seems to b the ultimate deciding factor is whether or not i can see myself spend the extra $80 or so a tire to get the Michelin's

what bothers me bout the Yoko's is the look of the depth of the tread...it looks so shallow compared to other tires...does the picture do it justice, or is the depth really not as deep as the Dunlops or Michelin's??? real-life pics would help a great deal perspective-wise

RidinLow

Hey Scooter, just had a thought. If you're going to continue autoxing on all season tires, it won't be long before you kill the outer edge of the tread anyway, making them pretty useless in the snow.