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New member here...been doing some reading and plan on reading alot more but I thought I would ask a couple of questions if anyone might have some quick bits of advice.
putting this car together for endurance racing (mainly Chumpcar), previous few years I have campaigned a b series swapped eg civic...rules are changing and need more ponies and a larger fuel capacity so it has lead me to the cls6....just picked one up and was wondering...
can you think of any 'quick mods' that are a must for this car for reliability?...for example...'don't use factory fill trans fluid' or 'make sure you check the rear track arm bushings" or anything like that....I will be going over the car completely but and areas to look at that are prone to failure?
also, any reasonable mods?...not big $$ fancy looking stuff...just stuff that makes sense...already ordered underdrive crank pulley to keep the alt/p/s pump speeds down as the car will see most of its time above 4000rpm...alt relocation kit is on order to delete the a/c and strip it right out for the cage...butterfly delete? can this car be driven without p/s or is it almost impossible with this steering rack?
thanks in advance...I know these questions will be answered in the threads I just don't want to miss something obvious
It sounds like you're already headed in the right direction with weight reduction. These cars need every bit of help they can get in that category. That alone will help with what I feel to be very undersized brakes for this car.
The "Type-S" CLs and TLs of this generation did receive a quicker-ratio steering rack. Not one that I would trust to be sufficient with the weight of the car stock, but if you shaved enough weight off of the car, I don't see an issue.
And if you really want a quick way to add power, purchase a set of headers. The claim on these cars is generally in the neighborhood of 15whp with others claiming much higher than that. I haven't installed my set and taken them to the dyno, but it seems a unanimous sentiment.
If you cannot find suspension items for this car, look to the aftermarket for the 6th generation ('98-'02) Accord. I purchased my H&R Race Springs and Koni yellows (Sports) from AutoAnything.com for around $$680, shipped. Add another $300 for OEM front suspension components to replace the upper control arms, outer tie rod ends and lower ball joints (factory Honda price is too cheap to pass up here) and you've got a nice performer on your hands!
Anything else is likely just general knowledge you already have from your previous experience. Good pads, good brake fluid and a set of stainless lines for the brakes. A sticky set of tires and lightweight wheels for the rollers.
trouble in paradise....stripping car out over the weekend and now no start....sentry key symbol is flashing....plugged everything back in short of re-i
nstalling the airbag system and still no go,....anyone have any experience with the sentry systems in these things?
Have had ppl come up to me during events and said seeing my car made them research into buying used 6 speed cls.
Can you give anymore info on what you did that caused car to not start? I am no expert, but have some experience and the electrical troubleshooting manual.
The SRS will not keep car from starting.
Weak part of CL is brakes. I'd upgrade atleast pads, rotors, lines, and fluid. Bbk, RL calipers, or legend calipers help. Single piston CL calipers tend to warp rotors.
Weight reduction. Could get car down to 2400 lbs if go all out.
Intake and exhaust mods.
Lightweight wheels and tires
Delete clutch damper and check valve in slave cylinder
Have had ppl come up to me during events and said seeing my car made them research into buying used 6 speed cls.
Can you give anymore info on what you did that caused car to not start? I am no expert, but have some experience and the electrical troubleshooting manual.
The SRS will not keep car from starting.
Weak part of CL is brakes. I'd upgrade atleast pads, rotors, lines, and fluid. Bbk, RL calipers, or legend calipers help. Single piston CL calipers tend to warp rotors.
Weight reduction. Could get car down to 2400 lbs if go all out.
Intake and exhaust mods.
Lightweight wheels and tires
Delete clutch damper and check valve in slave cylinder
electrical demon solved...1 wire from from immobilizer connection was pushed back from connector so can-cus signal was not completing....what a joke...going to send ecu out to have this feature removed.
brakes- we have been using raybestos st-43 compound on our civic with great success...hawk dtc wore to quickly and ate rotors...will mdx calipers bolt up?...they are dual piston and the rotors are the same as the cl.
going to do the butterfly delete, underdrive crank pulley is on order...might do the headers...see how the budget fares...reliability will be the big one...cant win a race if you are in the pits.
Most honda/acura calipers should bolt up. I am running tsx/3rd Gen tl kit.
One thing is some cars have caliper mounted to front of rotor like on our cl, where other cars have them mounted to rear which flips orientation and where bleed valve is. Could swap sides, just then the Pistons will be backwards (not sure if that affects it much) like the Legend calipers or calipers for s2k.
Reliability is great. None of my mods affected reliability. Just check oil lvl and top up. Then just the brakes and tires mainly.
For endurance racing you might want to add oil cooler and power steering cooler. I know doing multiple autocross runs back to back can overheat power steering, did that at tire rack. Might not be necessary for track.
Would be nice to add an accusump or oil pan baffle.
Oil pressure, oil temp, and water temp gauges are nice to have.
I only have experience with EBC red & yellow, and Carbotech XP8 pads. XP8 are too aggressive for street, where EBC aren't really aggressive enough for track.
Also for reliability you can check and change out suspension bushings. I would inspect axles for corrosion, etc. One of my axles snapped after 10 years from corrosion with salt, water, etc. Getting under the vibration damper. Having spare set on hand is never a bad idea.
Last edited by brian6speed; Dec 23, 2015 at 01:03 PM.
...will mdx calipers bolt up?...they are dual piston and the rotors are the same as the cl.
You know, that is a great question.
As you stated, the MDX rotor is the same part# 45251-TA6-A00 for the CL.
If the distance between the mounting holes on the CL knuckle is the same as on the MDX knuckle, for the caliper mounting bracket, then that would help answer the question because the knuckle configuration for an 03 MDX is different from the 03 CL.
I have an mdx set-up sitting on the shelf here...I will try to fit them up over the weekend and let everyone know...trouble will probably be trying to find good pads...might need to go custom
Just for giggles, I found two pictures off rockauto for the '95 Legend caliper and an 03 MDX and it appears that the MDX caliper may be a little 'beefier'; however, it's far from conclusive.
I'll be following this thread closely. I just picked up a CLS6 as a DD and do an occasional auto-x but I have a MK2 Supra that I race in Lemons/Chump/WRL. Building and improving the Supra has been fun using the same process you're doing here - find an enthusiast forum and use all the available information to find the weak spots and bring a strong, reliable car to the track.
I'm on the hunt for better brakes and a suspension setup that will work on the street, auto-x and maybe an occasional track day.
I'll be following this thread closely. I just picked up a CLS6 as a DD and do an occasional auto-x but I have a MK2 Supra that I race in Lemons/Chump/WRL. Building and improving the Supra has been fun using the same process you're doing here - find an enthusiast forum and use all the available information to find the weak spots and bring a strong, reliable car to the track.
I'm on the hunt for better brakes and a suspension setup that will work on the street, auto-x and maybe an occasional track day.
I will try to update as I go....what region are you guys running?...there are a couple supras out west here in the Portland area...stupid fast in a straight line compared to our current civic...they seem veryt tough on brakes and have noticed some fuel pick up issues and overheating at the couple of events I was at when they were there...hoping the cl can give them a run on the straights but with the wishbone suspension hopefully I can get it around the twisty bits faster than most of the big power cars
Someone on azine who knows double wishbone is better than McPherson strut, I am impressed.
Even when I go to events ppl still don't know difference.
no point in owning any honda/acura product that doesn't have it...that is one of the biggest upsides to the marque!...now if I can just figure out this multi link rear....hmmm
I will try to update as I go....what region are you guys running?...there are a couple supras out west here in the Portland area...stupid fast in a straight line compared to our current civic...they seem veryt tough on brakes and have noticed some fuel pick up issues and overheating at the couple of events I was at when they were there...hoping the cl can give them a run on the straights but with the wishbone suspension hopefully I can get it around the twisty bits faster than most of the big power cars
I live in the Atlanta area which is a good place for racing with Road Atlanta, AMP, Barber, NCM, Sebring, CMP all within a 6 hour tow. Last year we ran a Chump 24 at Homestead and a true 24 hour Lemons at Autobahn - long tows but I enjoy full 24s. My Mk2 Supra is not as fast as the Mk3, but handles far better and is fast enough. We were leading a 100 car field at Autobahn 15 hours into the race when the diff exploded (still finished 6th after replacing it), and won the overall at AMP in a WRL 12-hour. Information I gathered from a Mk2 forum helped my eliminate weak points and find cheap upgrades for big brakes, suspension set-up, and used parts.
My cls6 is much faster than the Supra in a straight line, I can't wait to see what you can do with the handling within a Crapcan budget.
no point in owning any honda/acura product that doesn't have it...that is one of the biggest upsides to the marque!...now if I can just figure out this multi link rear....hmmm
I dunno, still might buy new civic type r when it comes out to replace Focus ST, even though it uses mac strut in front. Do prefer older cars though. Maybe DC2 type R integra or CRX instead. Would love CRX for tight autocross courses.
Maybe since yours is a budget build you will get bigger following and more posts than my sad thread where I just talk to myself.
Last edited by brian6speed; Dec 26, 2015 at 11:24 AM.
Maybe since yours is a budget build you will get bigger following and more posts than my sad thread where I just talk to myself.
My Supra build thread is the same as yours, Brian - mostly me putting information out. Yours was the first thread I read when I registered for this forum. Thank you for the detail of your build and for keeping it updated, it's probably helped more people than you know.
My Supra build thread is the same as yours, Brian - mostly me putting information out. Yours was the first thread I read when I registered for this forum. Thank you for the detail of your build and for keeping it updated, it's probably helped more people than you know.
Thanks. Good luck with build, excited to see some results. Think CL is a great choice for what you guys are doing.
cold weather makes for easy sound deadener removal...hammer and a scraper...about 20lb lighter...pulled dash cross-bar...need to cut it down and re-install part of it to hold the steering column in place....heater box coming out to be gutted next....need a motor a core and full defrost only for rainy eventsGut the rest)...the rest goes......Prank parts butterfly delete plate and alternator relocate getting picked up tomorrow....goodbye to a/c and all of the crazy tensioner pulleys....I think I am replacing the steering rack with an accord rack...an extra 1/2 turn lock to lock...should make it a bit easier on the forearms when the p/s goes bye-bye
modified column brace back in.....pulled heater boxes to get sound deadener off firewall...going to weigh it later...I bet it is 50lbs...strung wiring back in temporarily to make sure I didn't make any wiring mishaps...IT RUNS!....now to get that wiring into a more manageble harness
I figured 50lb for sound deadener behind dash...actually 34lb...was quite wet when I pulled it....installed Prank butterfly delete plate...gutted left door and called it a day....in pulling car out I decided togive the throttle a bit of a "twist"...first time since I bought the car....is it normal for a fuel cut at 5500rpm on a 6spd?...heard the autos cut there in park or neutral...hoping it is normal...no cels...car sounds really 'angry' under throttle...can't wait to get this mutha on the track
....is it normal for a fuel cut at 5500rpm on a 6spd?...heard the autos cut there in park or neutral...hoping it is normal...
Per the Helms manual:
'Fuel Cut-off Control
During deceleration with the throttle valve closed, current to the injectors is cut off to improve fuel economy at speeds over 1100rpm. Fuel cut-off action also occurs when engine speed exceeds 6600rpm, regardless of the position of the throttle valve, to protect the engine from over-revving. When the vehicle is stopped, the ECM/PCM cuts the fuel at engine speeds over 5000rpm.'
Per the Helms manual:
'Fuel Cut-off Control
During deceleration with the throttle valve closed, current to the injectors is cut off to improve fuel economy at speeds over 1100rpm. Fuel cut-off action also occurs when engine speed exceeds 6600rpm, regardless of the position of the throttle valve, to protect the engine from over-revving. When the vehicle is stopped, the ECM/PCM cuts the fuel at engine speeds over 5000rpm.'
BTW, were you able to fit those MDX calipers?
so many thing to do...kinda jumping all over the place...mdx calipers are sitting by my toolbox...just kind of tossing crap at the wall and doing bits here and there...got the prank alt relocate to deal with the a/c delete...p/s delete coming plus still removing glass and gutting...will get to it (as the malty beverage decides) don't see much fot mdx brake pad that are decent...night have to contact porterfield to see if raybestos can do a custom...I will try to keep things updated...thanks for the fuel-cut info...I thought that is what it was
I did a basic depower on the Supra by looping the lines at the rack. However, to do this correctly you should take everything apart and remove the piston that separates right and left chambers.
a/c delete-alt relocate done...need a little heat to get crank bolt out...tomorrow...looks like I am going to keep the power steering...grabbed a big tranny cooler froma hemi durango to mreplace the factory loop...should help...
still haven't got to mdx brakes yet Zeta....although there is a wheel off and it is on the hoist so I might try a quick-fit tomorrow
We were P1 at the 15 hour mark when the diff exploded, then drove the wheels off the car for the final 7 hours after the diff swap.
I wasn't convinced that the tires would go that far but my other drivers wanted to try them. I had some used spares (Falken RT615k) ready just in case. Being able to run 255s probably helps - our team MX3s run 205s and can't get more than 12 hours out of them.
well unfortunately mdx calipers DO NOT fit on the cl...mount bracket is too thick to go between the knockle and the rotor ant the caliper will not both into the cl caliper bracket...oh well...keep on trying.
did a bit more stripping...underdrive crank pulley is in place...need to get the right belts now
wow ,dropped some weight off those doors.
Whats the weight of the door glass,motor,and cable?
glass and reg/motor are only 10.35lb...but inner trim panel, all rubber seals, wiring harness, metal run channels chunk of upper frame and inner skin were another 21lbs....so 31lb off each door.
skinned the trunk this afternoon...7lb for the skin plu one for the latch....hinges and springs to come out next...could have taken a bit more but I want a bit of structure still on the lid for when it comes on and off for storage.
also a little find from my friends at MDA Fabrication...had an old set kicking around...just what I needed.
trunk hinges, catch on end panel and all hardware removed and accounted for...another 7.5lb...so in total 15.5 lb out...will be adding approx 2lb back in for pins to keep lid skin in place
