i won. nothing really special. i let off the gas before i was even at 60 and i was very much ahead of him, he shoulda bought the M

 

 

haha

 

Nice Kill

 

OK, now come on...I've been challenging Phoenix people to race for a while now and have gotten no replies...I repeat: I'm not interested in drag racing, I want to road race or autocross. Since nobody here has had the Kegelkügeln to take me up on it, I'll just have to assume that the 330ci is the superior machine.

 

Lets not inflate our heads buddy. Some people on here believe differently. You paid 10K more for your car and therefore its a superior machine. Its like comparing Vipers to Ferraris (Vipers are faster than some Ferraris, but Ferraris are still superior only due to the extra money spent)

 

What the hell are you talking about? 10k more? You sound like a CL owner looking for an excuse!

And if you think a Ferrari is superior to a Viper only because it costs more, you've been smoking the filtered end again...

 

Face it, you should have bought the M-3 instead!!

:P :P :P

 

Don't I know it! Shitty thing is, I had a chance to buy a base M3 about a month after I got my car (this March) at MSRP; it would have been about $7k more than I paid forn the 330. I would have taken a bath on the 330, and it would have been a lot more expensive than $7k in the end. Oh well, something to dream about...

 

My sister is in the Air force and will be sent to Italy in two years. She is thinking of going to Germany and buying an M-3 or M-5 there. BWM there are cheap as hell, around 15K to 20K for a M-3. The Air Force will then ship it back here for free.

 

Just look at the logic behind Acura-CLS vs 330ci.
We know that power to weight ratio is the best indication of "whos faster" arguements
BMW 330ci on wheel hp is 225*.87 = 195.75 hp. Acura-CL S on wheel hp is 260*.77 = 200.2hp. BMW only experience the typical 13% power loss because it does not have torque converter.
Power to weight ratio:
BMW: 3200/196 = 16.34lbs/hp
ACURA: 3550/200.2 = 17.73lbs/hp
When looking at this number (ignoring gear ratio, RWD/FWD, aerodynamics which all in favor of BMW 330ci), your win is obviously due to driver's skills. There's no way Acura-CL S can kill a 330ci. Not a chance=)
With a 328, the story might be different. just looking at the logic, no flame please.
And I test drove 330ci ( 5 speed), and it is obviously faster than a stock Acura-CLS. No questions about it. 330ci AT is more in par to CL-S, but I still believe 330ci AT would still win given same launch and driver skills.

 

Good point, although there's an even simpler indicator of which car is faster: the one that crosses the finish line first!

I'm not going to talk any more trash because I still don't know if my car is faster or not. I do know I'm still not a very good driver, but I'm learning. Anybody in Phoenix want to do a shootout?

 

Its all about the driver baby!

Also, by the whole 'Viper vs. Ferrari' thing, I meant in terms of performance in the straight line since thats what everyone here loves to compare: "My car is faster than yours up to 20MPH" or some crazy shit like that.

 

Why did you quit before 60?

 

your "logic" has a few holes...

1. the general convention when comparing weight/power of two vehicles (particularly when they aren't dynoed at the same time) is to use crank horsepower. I understand you want to get to a "real world" power-to-weight figure, but there are so many variables that arbitrarily holding one variable constant (by specifying a dubious at-the-wheel hp figure) won't necessarily gain you any additional insight.

2. your weight figures are off somewhat as well (in favor of the bmw, I might add). per edmunds.com:

2002 330ci has a curb weight (manual) of 3285 lbs.
2002 cl-s (non-navi) has a curb weight of 3510 lbs.

weight/hp ratio:

330ci: 3285/225 = 14.6 lbs/hp
cl-s: 3510/260 = 13.5 lbs/hp

correcting your original analysis for the weight disparity (and using cl-s dyno info available on this website - I have not looked for 330 dynos, so I can't say whether your figure is accurate or not):

330ci: 3285/196 = 16.8 lbs/hp
cl-s: 3510/208 = 16.9 lbs/hp

the difference is not nearly as dramatic as you make it out to be. in fact, the biggest advantage the 330 manual has in straight-line acceleration comes from its shorter gearing, and it is clearly enough of an advantage to overcome the type s' horsepower surplus.

IMO, you are correct that the 330 auto is more on par with the cl-s (and magazine testing seems to back this up) but neither car is so dominant as to be invincible to the other (manual or auto, 330 or cl-s) in straight line performance.

 

I think edmunds.com car editors smoke crack sometimes.

 

'k...

 

If I were to race day in and day out and had money to spare, the choice between the CL-S and a 330 might be closer.

However, considering what most of us purchase a vehiche now days for, this first speculation does not even come to mind.

Sure, I looked at the 330Ci before purchasing my CL-S, as well as the IS300. My conclusion was simple and very well justifyed:

Why would I spend 43K for a 330Ci (fully equiped, and no navi option) where I could get more interior room, most amenities cover under the base price, much more horse power, and the option of having the most sophisticated navigation system on the market for say... 13K less.

I could not believe that BMW would charge for HID lighting, leather, sunroof, etc.

The choice is obvious. To the point where I feel kind of sorry for all those 330Ci owners. "If they only knew"

Oh sure, the BMW brand is legendary, this no one can deny. But then again, how do you place a monetary value on this?

BMW's brand management department must be laughing at BMW owners, as I am sure that at least 20% of the price of the vehicle is justifyed by it's brand.

Even if I had the money to purchase a new 330Ci, I would opt for a used say... 911 Carrera. Now there, I would pay a premium for legendary performance, etc. Not for a 330 that so closely resembles what I already own for about 13K less.

I can't wait for your response!!!

 

 

I agree. I mean, bmws handles great, everyone knows that. But I am sure that at least 90% of BMW owners out there don't drive so hard that they'll need the extra handleing capibility. Give them a CLS or even CLP and they would do just fine, still have about $12k left to buy plasma tv or some nice jewelry. Heck, buy a diamond and mount it in the car, the diamond will surely look better than the bmw logo. I always see 40 year old womans or old guys driving 330s like its a civic. What a waste of money.

 

Well, what can I say the BMW coupe got me at first sight. As a previous Acura owner, I trully enjoyed how my GSR had been so reliable and so fun to drive. Back when I was in college and driving my Acura, I think BMWs and MBs are full of shits. My little 1.8l engine with no mods can equal the performance of the 323. And with little mods, I can equal the performance of a 328. I thought my high revving little 1.8l engine is more advanced than those powerplant that BMW has in their 323 and 328. I thought those BMW owners must be smoking cracks when they purchased their vehicles.
As a matter of fact, BMW was not my first choice. Acura TL was my first choice. Acura TL had me at seeing the specs. I thought damn for 30k u got everything u wanted in a 50k BMW or MBs. Then, I was curious on why BMW could sell. So after test driving Acura TL, I went to a BMW dealership. I saw a 328CI with Sport Package. What can I say, I was awed by the design. It was the most beautiful car that I had ever seen. It had me well before I opened the door. So, I went for a test drive. I opened the door, and window slide down a little bit. I slammed the door, and it gave me that teutonic feeling. The driving dynamics was just unbeatable.
The minute I was in the car, it was like you communicating with your best friend. He knew what you wanted, and gave you exactly what you wanted from steering feel, silky smooth inline six, comfort of the sports seats. I know BMW (the non M) are not built to be fast cars. I believe the power is just sufficient, but the delivery is unbeatble at any price. BMW had me at first test drive vs Acura had me at seeing the specs on paper.
Given I have 32k to spend, I would still get a BMW 325 with SP, Xenon and monroof. I know its slower than CL-S, Altima V6, Maxima. I knew that. I know IS300 5 speed prolly has more power and handling capability. I know that better than you guys. Sure other cars are cheaper, stronger, but they don't have the "soul". IMHO nothing can beat the feeling that BMW gave you.
Well, you guys can laugh whatever ways you want to. We are proud of our BMWs. We believe the $$ that we spent is trully justified. I have never regretted my decision by getting a BMW.
Then you are thinking why people like me hang aroung here at his Acura board? I am really interested in the racing sections. I went around looking for very entertaining stories. Like beating those GS430, 330ci manual, M3, M coupe, 540, E430, etc. These stories are like David vs the giant things=) Nice kills tho (those drivers are sux)
My advice is go test drive one BMW. If you think that's not worth the extra $$, then be it. If you are still confused, DON'T BUY ONE.

 

Hey Tunkz. Sounds like you should be on one of those BMW sites. Anyway, interesting comments on your BMW affection. I did test drive the 330Ci, as well as every other car in this market segment. Sure, I could have purchased a 330Ci for... say 43K (fully loaded). The truth of the matter - after doing a four month analysis on BMW vs. Acura vs. Nissan vs. Lexus, I came to the same conclusion most automobile editors came to in the past. Buck for buck, there is nothing close to an Acura. Sure, I do agree that the front end of the BMW is close to a work of art, then again the back end and rear third quarter view are not really all there. The interior is OK, but not enough room for the average person. In short, the BMW serves up the same as everyone in the class, it just does not deliver in all catagories, and at the levels that the competition, especially value. I read an interesting article a while back on BMW marketed prospective buyers. It turns out that a large percentage of the people who truly commit to analizing the monetary impact of purchasing a new vehicle (in any category) turn away from BMW. Take the Acura CL-S for instance, it's targeted buyers are males making an average salary of $100K, and colege graduates.

My point being, if you sit down do the math, and put logic into the purchase, very few people would end up in BMW's.

My sister, college graduate. Her decision = Lexus GS400 over 540i. My cousin, not much schooling, but very successful in finance, Lexus LS400 vs. BMW 535e. My room-mate owns a 1999 540i, but then again, he makes enough mula to throw away.

On the other hand, I have a 10 year old daughter. She once told me that once she turns 18 she would like a "BMW convertible". Oh, sure I say. Little does she know that once she's done with college and university, and after dad has sat down with her and taught her the pleasure of driving, the mechanicals of an automobile, and the value of money, I am sure her BMW won't be the first on her list...

 

Gabo, I hope you are right that "few people will end up on buying BMW" after understanding the logic. I see at least 2 BMWs per 1 Acura in Austin.
Well, as I said, if you drive one and did not find anything special in BMW, then don't buy it. I agree completely with you, valuewise nothing can beat Acura ( I owned one). About joy of driving, I find mine in a BMW. My buddy find his in a S4. My other friend finds it in a MB C320. You guys in a Acura-CLS. Well, that's subjective, and I am cool with all that.
Acura CL-S is a great car. I don't mind 260hp in my BMW, but I am fine with my 193hp. And I still think 325's 184hp is more than enough for daily use. It's not really about hp wars to me from the start anyhow. I would have gotten myself a Corvette instead of a BMW if I am a hp freak.
About interior rooms, I believe my car is as big as the Acura-CL. And I have seating capacity for 5(crammed).
Driving dynamics is what have brought me to BMW. It altered my emotion whenever I drive it. I guess you can ask m5lite, why he keeps buying BMW too?
That's my honest opinion.

 

There is a HUGE difference in FWD (even though Honda makes some of the best handling FWD cars) and RWD cars PERIOD. The driving feel and experience is totally different. my 2 cents

 

Well, most people here have brought good points to the table. It's kinda like comparing Armani suits=BMW vs. Country Road suits=Acura. The point I'm trying to make here is that both accomplish the same, yet one costs more, but for a reason. It's really a matter of opinion, but I must say that I bought my BMW cuz I felt like the driving characteristics were second to none for me.

On a personal note, I was very shocked to see that a $100K per annum person was targeted for a $30K car...interesting.

 

When I decided to buy my CL-S, I looked at the long-term factors...not just the immediate ones(ie. performance, comfort, etc.). You see, I've previously owned a BMW before my CL-S. Granted, it was a '94 318i, but a BMW nonetheless. All I have to say about BMW is.......after your warranty expires, "parts and labour"...have fun making those large withdrawals at the bank:P

I don't know how it is in the USA, but up here:

BMW labour is approx. $120 CAD per hr($75 USD)
Acura labour is approx. $70 CAD per hr($44 USD)

 

Not another BMW vs. Acura thread! For those of you who think that BMW is the best car built, I've got one thing to say to you:



For those of you who think that BMWs are a waste of money, I've got one thing to say to you:

 

Oh! I totally forgot the maintenance perspective.

My buddy pays between 80 an 120 for his 540i "Dealer" oil changes. Hence why he decided to start going to Jiffy Lube.

I got mine over the weekend for $27 and change, got a free wash too!

Anyone will tell you that the Acura is way superior in mechanical longevity, endurance, dependability. Just look at any consumer report publishings. Japanese = 1st, European =2nd, American = 3rd.

Not only is maintenance required at fewer intervals. Labor and parts cost less.

And for those who talk about handling characteristics. No, BMW is that high on the list. No front engined car would ever have that previledge. That's left to our mid engined powerplant autos, Porsches, Ferraris, and oh yeah NSX made of course by Acura...

I've been asking my buddy to race his 540i vs. mine. I'll probably lose by about a car lengh or so... I can't wait. It'll be fun!

Interesting stuff eh!!!

 

BMW best car ever built? Please...

Have you ever driven a Lanborghini, felt the thrust of a V12? How about taking a turn in a Lotus Esprit, or super 7? Alfa Romeo?

I take nothing away from BMW... They have very little to offer in comparison to the best in the field.

"BMW" and "the best car ever built" should not be used in the same sentence.

What a waste of words...

You deserve a good laugh!

 

You forgot to mention that the 540i requires $80 oil changes every 10K miles vs. Acura every 3000 miles. So let's take $27X3 for 9000 miles, who paid more now?

 

Oh a buck more for a better car.
:P :P :P

 

Actually acura recommends oil changes every 7500 mi. But you'd have to be a f'n idiot to let it go that long. But you would be a world class dumbass to let your bmw go 10k before an oil change. Come on people.

 

I disagree. While I don't follow BMW's 15,000 mile recommendation for my car because I drive it hard, I'm perfectly comfortable with fresh Mobil 1 every 7500 miles. With good synthetic oil and modern engine designe, I think we're past the day of the 3000 mile oil change.

 

First of all, let's accept the fact that some people don't buy cars simply based on logic. If we did, none of us would be driving anything other than a 4 door Accord. Why spend the extra money on an Acura?

Parts for my wife's '94 Maxima (before I sold it) were about the same as my BMW (at least brake parts). You can get BMW parts cheap if you know where to go. For example, I got stock rotors for my M5, a very limited production car, for $55. Not bad eh?

Anyway, I just like to drive what I am familiar with. I know BMW's. I know how they act and behave and where most of the buttons are. I know they will be perfectly balanced and have great brakes. My wife's 323iT sport is a fun car to drive and on a twisty road with no room to use power I could hang with most cars discussed on this board. The power, even with a tip, has surprised me. If you keep it above 4000rpm by using the manual mode the car pulls decently. It has that stiffly sprung feel that no other company offers in stock form and we only paid $31,700 with 6800 miles on the clock. I have a warranty to 55k and extended warranty to 100k.

I have chased a few 330i's on the track in my M5 and although I had them on the straights they were quite impressive in the corners. Would I pay $43k? No way, I could get a s/c E36 M3 or other nice used BMW for way less. You can pick up a nice M5 for under $25k or M6 for even less.

 

Some people just can't get enough of bashing BMW

I changed my oil myself. 7 quarts of Mobile 1 5w30 cost around $32 at Wallmart and an oil filter cost about $10 at BMW dealer. So I still spend $42 doing the job myself. And even tho BMW recommends once every 15k miles, I change mine every 5k miles. On a $27 oil change, they prolly use somekind of cheap oil

I have 25k miles on my 328ci, and 0 problems. The car has been as reliable as my previous Acura Integra. The engine runs better than new after I hit 20k miles. I believe the current BMW 3er ranks number 1 in term of depreciation by consumer reports. Intellichoice ranks Acura CL-S equal to BMW 330 in term of value. Both of these report show how reliable the car has been. After owning a BMW, I would not be afraid to buy a used one.

Honda/Acura product has not been without warranty problem too. My friend accord V6 has been in and out shop because of faulty automatic tranny and air intake flaws. My friend's new TL-S went back to dealer during the 2nd week because the check engine lights were on. To generalize that all european car performs worse in term of reliability than japanese car is ridicilous.

In term of the best car in the world arguement. I believe these arguements that we all had show subjective the topic is. BMW E36 M3 beats Porches, Ferraris, Supras, and yes NSX in term of "best handling car at any price" rated SUBJECTIVELY by car and driver editors.

 

Apparently, you have no knowledge of synthetic oils. The only problem with long oil changes is the filter. BMW has designed a filter that is good for more than 15K, the oil should last much longer. Also, the computer adjusts the service interval based on your driving style.

 

Are you really comparing an M3 to the likes of Porsches and specially Ferrari!

Boy... it's a good thing you aren't saying this in Germany or ITALY!

"You've got to wash that BMW logo off your forehead"

As far as dependability, reliability goes... yes Japanese cars are better than Europeans. Like I said, check out any consumer reports. Hopefully the one that stacks manufacturing nations totals.

Any questions?

 

No, he's right; I've got the issue of Car and Driver where they name the E36 M3 the bestv handling car at any price. It's a subjective opinion, of course, and strong arguments could be made for many other cars, but they found the M3 to be much easier to drive at the limit than the twitchy, rather unpredictable rear- or mid-engine exotics.

And the E46 M3 looks to be even more responsive, precise, communicative, predictable, and natural than the E36. So I think comparison to 911s and 360s is entirely appropriate.

 

I use Mobil 1 and the BMW filter and still change my oil every 5000 miles (max 7000 miles). I just don't like the idea of having oil for more than that period of time. I do approx. 90% highway driving at crusing speeds on the freeway during the morning time of about 20MPH and then in the evening at approx. 80MPH.

I just reset that damn oil service indicator each time I do an oil change. BTW, if you don't know how to do that yourself without the tool, let me know, I'll show ya.

 

I agree, my dad owns a few autoshops and he said ask any autoshop, japanese car are more dependable and reliabe than europeans. Now of course there are cases that both japanese and european cars were just, well bad. He said take a 12 yr old bmw and toyota, the toyota would have had less problem. Plus he said the problems japanese cars have are smaller compaired to the europeans. He did say honda/acura/nissan/mazda have way more problems than toyota/lexus. He said 40% of the cars coming in his shops are american, about 15% european, 10% japanese, rest 35% are like kia and hyundai and stuff. He always recommand people getting toyota/lexus.