DtEW

After hearing from you guys about how easily your cruiser can be supposedly transformed into an curve demon with just springs and sways...

I challenge the best road racer amongst you to a real race, meaning time trials, controlled environment for repeatable results. This can take place at an autocross or a track day. The track day will play better into your power advantage, headers, intake, whatever, as I have no power mods. But I'm your huckleberry, as they say. The autocross will be more convenient and significantly cheaper to participate in.

Don't backpeddle and tell me the what you guys meant was that the CL only handles like a sports car in a straight line.

I don't care about your level of modification. You can have anything that you think will make your car handle better.

I do not wish to travel excessively nor should you, but we have enough Acura-CL'ers in Southern California to make this happen. So let's do this. Let's put it to rest. Let's work out a date at one fo the scheduled events come early 2003.

Despite the backdrop to this, it will be a friendly event with only the necessary level of rival ribbing.

typeR

we used to have a guy that auto X'd but im only into the straightline thing good luck finding a run...a 6mt with springs sways ,tires ,headers , will probablly be more than you can handle but anything can happen...have fun and keep it safe

Zapata

Foolio won't run anybody in the 1/4 This entire thread war was started by some body claiming to have beaten a CLS in a stop light race. Nobody said anything about race being at Mid-ohio, lime rock etc., etc.,

If you women want to run a 1/4 or stop light race then just race......

DtEW

In an autocross context, I'll even run someone with the Comptech SC.

Let's just leave the speculation at that.

Com'on, let's get this thing going... there's no excuse not to do it. It's safe and the results are much more conclusive than any street play.

I'm not responding to "the entire thread". I'm responding to your claim that springs and sways will turn a boat into corner-carver. Did you notive me saying anytyhing about the street race claims?

Zapata

Take it to the 1/4 track. It doesn't have to be on the street.

DtEW

Are you backing out on the overall speed claims? I think anybody worth anything in automotive circles will define overall speed as being the combination of acceleration, braking, transitioning, and cornering, aka not a 1/4 sttrip but a road course of some sort.

Don't tell me that your driving life is lived a quarter mile at a time. Or is it that the CL can only keep it together in a straight line?

Zapata

My car does behave like sports car in a stright line........you can't even claim that.....

DtEW

That's what an upcoming race between IS300GTE and TheModMole will settle.

I think it would be more precise to say that your car behaves like a musclecar in a straight line. Whether it behaves like a sports car and can keep itself from plowing off the road plowing at the nearest turn is what remains to be seen and what I intend to show with little room for doubt.

Hell, minivans can be made into quarter-mile monsters. That's your peer if that's all the claim you can claim to.

typeR

all depends on the circles my friend...id say it be tuff to make the cl into a real twistie track car...the center is too far off...but with 300 hp to your 225 like i said i really belive a 6mt can pull it off if equiped...i stick to the straights...

Zapata

Sure and i can slap wheels on a 2x4 and make that into go kart that will outhandle a track car. What's your point?

DtEW

Can you? I'd like to see you do it, since it's evident you know all there is to know about automotive handling dynamics and race driving. Hell, I'd settle on seeing you just getting the CL to not embarass itself on a track. That must be an easier proposition given all that you've claimed, no?

I'm hearing a lot of excuses, people. I think most everyone has to admit that I've set up the terms of this challenge to be more than fair, allowing just about all levels of mod on your CL and even giving you guys the advantage of long straights in the case of the track. So what's the holdup? (Besides the obvious, of course.)

In case any A-CL'er in the Florida/Georgia region is interested in this challenge, we've got another representative for the IS300 out there willing to demonstrate this point. Let me know and I'll put you in touch.

Zapata

Excuses being heard right? Hehe shit I wish i would've seen some of your smack talking bitches out at the track. NOT ONE SHOWED UP!!!!!!! NOT ONE! This debate begins and ends with the straight-line challenge. Show me some time slips.
Funny how when you KNOW, let me say again KNOW that you will get your ass handed to you straight-line you change the topic.

Thanks for the evaluation! WIll you send a report card home as well

BTW, the majority of the roads in the U.S. are straight. If you didn't realize. Unless your place of employment is at the start and finish line of laguna seca then i don't want to hear this B.S. about wait till i get in the turns blah blah blah. "Real" world driving is on the highway and roads and streets. TRY and catch me.....

That being said. There are some great drivers in the south who would me more than happy to take your challenge. If you are at all familiar with the Road Atlanta course, then perhaps that can be the proving ground. Hopefully, they'll see this thread.

DtEW

Change the topic? You're on my thread, bub. You're changing my topic because you're too scared to meet my challenge head-on. And if you missed it, we're meeting your straight-line challenge and then some. The meet has been set and one rep from your board and another from my board will settle this in Philly soon. Take some of that Ritalin. Being an impatient little boy and presuming any results is a little unbecoming, I think.

Excuses, excuses... (And an obvious inability to recognize sarcasm...)

By your rationale a worked Chevy Nova is a superior sports machine than an E46 M3. If you can't see the obvious problem, then you're hopeless. Enjoy your delusions.

Let's hope so. So far all I've gotten from you is an entire page of reasons why you're too much of a pu$$y to take a fair, equally-weighted challenge. Let's hope nobody has to endure more pages of this.

KavexTrax

Hi David, how's it going?

Whats that you have under your hood? A TRD supercharger perhaps?

DtEW

Yo Kvit!

Nope. I'm constrained by Solo 2 STX regs. I can't touch the engine. I've never been much of a power junkie anyways, as you know.

Ah, isn't this bring up the nostalgia of the old days?

Zapata

Pussy to run, no. I'm not afriad to run anybody. You must have short memory because i challenged any N/A IS300 to run me MONTHS ago. How many takers? NONE. Isn't that what the original argument was about?? It's an open challenge......see if you can't rustle up some takers....

DtEW

Com'on now... I don't make it point to read everything you post. It's not like you're EricL or something.

And come to think of it, isn't N/A a rather artificial constraint you're trying to impose on an otherwise simple subject? Acceleration is as acceleration does. I do go around challenging CL's "without aftermarket sway bars" to run, or "automatic only." It's a classic sign that you know exactly what will happen if you didn't set the contest up to specifically exclude the people that will wipe you all over the floor.

I mean, does the controlling body for import drag racing (assuming there is one) make exclusions to what you can and can't bring? I didn't think so.

Does the chipped S4 who pulls up next to you at a stoplight give a sh!t if you're naturally-aspirated or not? I didn't think so.

Unlike you, I'm playing it fair. No artificial constraints that would otherwise make irrelevant the race results' applicability to settling the age-old debate about the maximum possible performance of the cars. Bring a manual CL-S if you like. It doesn't matter to me that I'm running an automatic. Bring it with the biggest and baddest sways you can get made. It doesn't matter to me that I'm not running aftermarket sways. Bring 200 extra CC's. It doesn't matter to me because I'm not some pu$$y who imposes pointless constraints into contests to set themselves up to win.

I didn't see your original "challenge," but is it any wonder why nobody took it? I mean, if I challenged you guys to a race with only 3000cc's of N/A displacement (it can be done), would anyone here take it? I didn't think so.

Bring whatever outrageous CL you can build. I will take you on an autocross course or road track. It's as fair as you can get. Except that you're just too scared to even consider a race with braking and turning in addition to acceleration.

Hell, my IS is so badass I can out-decelerate an NSX. That is about as valid to a judgement of the car's total performance as your fixation with just acceleration.

nvpscore

my auto beats a stock IS,

two kids at my school had them, raced them both at the same time, me in the middle. Hands down, they overpaid, less performance, and should just stick to carting people around with their sedan.

Check the other thread for my story with the IS boy and his gf, gf walked out on him. haha

Zapata

NO, it isn't an artificial restraint. It's called racing your peers dumbass. Surely, you must understand the advantages v. disadvantages of NOS, SC, Turbo and allmotor cars. Why would somebody with a stock street car go against somebody that has a worked 454 big block?@# I surely as hell wouldn't because the out come of the race is not is question. Hence, my insistance of a STOCK is300 versus a stock CLS. I'm suprised to see somebody who runs SCCA solo events NOT understand the effects of mods. Seems SCCA wants to catagorize cars so it's an apples to apples comparison. Guess they have it wrong and you have right????
Get a CLUE and then come back.....

Nobody took the challange because you KNOW and i repeat you KNOW you and the rest of your pretty boy crowd will and would lose. Since is300 board is too busy looking pretty and didn't decide to run, I'll post my slips and you post yours. Those are controlled track events, no? Other board members will post their timeslips.

You're brethern posted some B.S. story about toasting a cls by 3.5 car lengths. RIGHT ok. 3.5 car lengths equates to nearly 4+ seconds if you were to compare it to a 1/4 mile race. It's B.S. story and you know it. Apparently, you can't stop from giving each other reach arounds to police your own threads.

The ONLY reason you came to this website to post your challenge was because of that thread, THE ONLY REASON.
So don't attempt to tell me I have some fixation about accelration. When a topic is started...it USUALLY centers around 1 topic.

Zapata

heh, nvpscore, they won't run you. They are going to wait until you get on the curvy road

DtEW

LOL. For someone who seems to draw upon rationale as if he knew something, the simple fact that the CL's have 200cc's of displacement on the IS300 seems to have blown right by your head. The other fact that the CL-S is actually Helmholtz pressure-wave supercharged (what, you think a freer exhaust gave you that 35hp over the CL-P? What did you think the MM was? ) seems to have blown right over your head too.

Consider that 300cc's of displacement is what separates the CL-S from the 350Z.

The fact that the IS and CL-S aren't directly comparable because of these facts is why the only comparable venue is the so-called outlaw class, which is pretty much everything goes. That's as equal as they come.

Keep walking around my challenge. Keep tracing that nice outline that tells everyone that for all the sh!t that gets passed around in these forums about the CL being an overall performer, that nobody dares to run their CL in a venue that actually puts these abilities to the test.

And now you're too pansy to even run against forced-induction cars. :roll: Sad.

I couldn't give a flying sh!t what my "brethern" claim. They're every bit the f*cking idiot that you are, and no less. I took issue with the outrageous claims made within that thread by certain A-CL'ers, about the handling and overall performance claims "with just springs and sways". Is any of this getting through your dense head yet? Or are you that dense as to preclude all tangents from every single discussion?

You're now in my thread, and this one was about something other than just acceleration. But you keep trying to turn it into another drag race.

I mean, the more that you fight me about this, the more you know you're walking around the subject of handling and overall performance as it pertains to a sports vehicle. At least it's going to be stuck in your head.

rustoned

I have a IS300 as well as the 3.2 CL. As a memeber of is3.net I know about IS300GTE. He has a bad mutha%#$#* and will back up his talk. I've seen turbo is300's spank around TT Porsches. Don't underestimate them.

ACLOWnt

a bunch of these CL fanboys live their life

only a "quarter mile at a time"

nate'sCLS

^ :ghey: Troll ^

Bluto

Road race or autocross is more of a driver’s race. It takes a bit more commitment and interest to do well. I don't think anyone who bought a CLS intends to do either competitively. However, most people who buy IS300s never will either.

edit
Well .. maybe one member ..

http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...threadid=76049

Zapata

N/A versus N/A. You are too much a PUSSSSY to run me. Now you are going to bring in the dual intake runners into the argument? What's next, i have a better airbox design??? WHAT AT TOOL. Any excuse not to run......making excuses for why you and almost evey other IS300 will loose and loose badly. Now all of a sudden they aren't compariable??????

Keep waiting for me at the track and i'll just walk you like a dog on the highway......see how reality strikes you then.

Zapata

ONE is300. shit you make it seem like 50% of the is300's out there can make such a claim. 99.99% of the porsche TT's kill nearly every single is300 on the road. One exception is NOT the rule.

moforose3.0

just go race and quit the arguing. The cl is faster on a straightaway and the is300 handles better in their stock formes. that has been established. Now someone get out their in their supercharged 6sp with all the aftermarket suspension goodies and tear him a new asshole- haha

scalbert

I'm in Georgia and very willing. Does it matter which car I drive, the choice would depend on the track selected... We are having a meet at a local Dyno this Saturday and an IS300 owner will be present; but this is meant to be friendly and noncompetitive.

Aside from that I'd be willing to run my stock suspension 6-Speed against an IS300 at a track. Road Atlanta will have some open track days coming up in the spring which, as you mentioned, will allow a CL-S to compete better. There are also local auto-x events which I've been itching to try the CL-S6 on. As opposed to what you have stated about trying not to embarrass themselves in a CL, I would never be embarrassed. I know what the CL is designed for and it does exactly what I purchased it for.

One reason people often talk about acceleration is simply because it is easier to utilize on the street. Most people will never take it past about 75% handling limits on the street which makes it hard to discern the real benefits of RWD over FWD. That last 25% which can be used at a sanctioned event will show the difference in the handling capability. I would also state that most, 90%+, CL and IS300 drivers will never go to a track event to fully utilize the capability. This makes the CL versus IS300 handling ability argument nearly irrelevant. It is only when pushed hard will the greater handling dynamics show for the IS300.

I will say this, although it still isn't on par with my E46 328i with sport suspension, the HLSD in the 6-Speed makes a serious difference and allows the power to be put down sooner and fuller. You can get on it hard mid apex and pull through without the typical push. Obviously there is a limit at which point that front end bias will take over, but it has been raised. Once through that turn and on a straight, there is no question that CL-S6 will pull harder. Mid turn and on the straight is where the CL-S6 would need to shine as it will have to brake earlier and set up for the turn better.

Now what relevance does this have in my life, none. The CL-S takes me to and from work and handles the business trips well taking me down the highway in great comfort. It also provides a certain sport appeal and provides spirited driving when desired.

So yes, I would take up this challenge so direct them my way. Depending on the circumstances and location I would have an idea of the outcome. I am running a stock suspension, the wonderful Michelins, etc...

But if I do loose do I get to redeem myself with a 1320’ blast… :P

CL-S6 over Lexus SC430

DtEW

It's almost funny that just about everyone can see that you're still in my thread and desperately dodging my challenge. If you believe you can deflect attention away from that basic fact and re-cast the situation, keep flailing.

Tell you what, I'll talk to the East Coast Z-Club. I should be able to convince them to humor you and do the drag thing N/A to N/A , no spray with an extra 200-300cc's of displacement advantage against you. You'll surely accept with a few hundred on the line, right? It's only the same situation except in reverse. I'm not talking about hypotheticals, of course. You accept this, you do this. No free rhetorical fodder for you; you can't have your cake and eat it too. :pfawk:

I and everyone else will watch you shoot off on the street like the TFATF-worshipping pre-teen that you obviously still are despite the pretensions of class, maturity, or even seasoned automotive enthusiasm. And one day someone will watch you "walk someone like a dog" on the highway right into an embankment or an innocent motorist. That's perhaps how reality is going to strike you.

moforose3.0, that's precisely what I wish somebody would actually try to do instead of all this pathetic excuse-making and petty attention-deflection that Zapata has stooped to. It was supposed to be a friendly race, as all these things always are when participants don't get to hide behind the Internet.

DtEW

Terrific, scalbert. I'll put you touch with IS_Dude. If this is friendly and non-competitive, it shouldn't matter what car you bring. If this is to be relevent to the spat we have at hand, then the CL-S would probably be more appropriate.

There is no general disagreement with what you're saying, but there needs to be a skew in your stats. It should not be assumed that any relevant party (ie, not a soccer mom) buying either car is an automotive illiterate. I would assume that those who bought the CL-S did in fact appreciate its accelerative power, and those who bought the IS300 did also in fact appreciate its agility. You may not catch the average IS owner on the street demonstrating that ability on a daily basis, but the story will probably a little different if you catch him on a canyon road. You'll see greater than 7.5/10th there, just as you will see some CL-S'ers taking their accelerative ability past 75% at a stoplight. It's all a matter of the environment and circumstances in which you're observing.

Zapata

Scalbert,
I was waiting for you to respond

scalbert

I agree, I was joking about driving the BMW. But IMO, that would be another interesting match-up especially on a tight auto-x. The 193 HP E46 328i would be close to a stick IS300 in acceleration and handling. It would really come down to the driver.

The CL-S6 will be the vehicle in this amicable competition.

As I previously stated, acceleration is easier to notice in a street car. I stand by my point that most IS owners will never use its inherent handling prowess to the extent where it provides a better showing than the CL-S. This is the same for BMW; most don't drive the car to its ability. A 3-series is not about drag racing, it is about an overall vehicle experience which most never realize or use. Sure they might get on it now and then leaving a light but never use the throttle to steer the car. This is the same for the IS300.

Obviously there are exceptions to the rule and a small percentage will drive the car as intended which I respect regardless of brand or model.

CLS2001_97124

Scalbert,

Good luck, I know that you can prove your point that when it comes AutoX, it more a driver's race (80% Driver, and 20% car)that will determine ones lap time.

DtEW,

I am not trying to argue the fact that one car is better than the other. But I do know that you made your challenge here, is because (like you said) CL is an overall bigger/heavier car, therefore most CL owners don't use the car for the purpose of racing at autoX, therefore, have a great disadvantage when running against some such as yourself (I'm assuming that this is something you've done at least a few times).

IMO, I think you can proof you point even better if (somehow) there was a professional driver who is not bias towards either car, and let him/her take each car for a few laps and compare the times. Because only by doing so, I believe you can get the convincing results you are looking for.

DtEW

[You might be surprised, actually. We generally don't have terrible problems with the E46 3-series in any of the normal classes (DS, STS, STX, SP), even with an automatic. Whether that's due to simply bad piloting is up to debate, but both this year and last year's National Championship results really don't show very well for the E46's either. Suprisingly it's the E36's that are more of a threat.

Good deal. I've notified the other party. What/when/Where of the venue is something you guys need to work out. I can act as intermediary if you wish, or you can deal with him directly.

Actually, cornering at even something like 8/10ths, a RWD car feels somewhat different than a FWD car. Whether that difference in feel is enough to justfy the added complexity and cost of RWD is very much dependent on the personal preference of the buyer (which is the true reason why luxobarges such as the LS430, S-class, etc. are RWD; it's certainly not for 10/10ths performance). Some people value that feel over more power. So no, you don't need to take it to the ends of performance to appreciate a RWD car.

I personally am not much of a horsepower junkie beyond what is necessary to throttle steer. If I were asked to explain why this is, I'd ask the inquisitor to hypothetically consider what fun there is to drag race supposing there wasn't an opponent. The answer is that until you get into truly scary fast territory (rails? 10 sec cars?), drag racing is at its core a competitive thrill, and not much beyond that. The same cannot be said about running a mountain. It's a thrill in-and-of-itself, whether you're flinging a Miata or trying to keep a Z06 from killing you. But compared to drag racing, you can also have just as much (if not more) competitive thrills at an autocross. So I prefer to have it both ways: the competitive thrill of trying to one-up your long-standing rival's times, and the independent thrill of chirping the brakes into a switchback, weight transferring perfectly to get the "rail" effect, and getting a little corner exit wag. That's where it is for me.

Fortunately, we're getting more and more people interested in amateur motorsports. We're actually in the process of starting a one-make league and points series in California, organized by SpeedVentures. We're hoping to get it off the ground in late Winter next year.

DtEW

CLS2001_97124, it might surprise you to know that I wasn't trying to prove anything, since I am well-versed enough in automotive theory and SCCA results-based classing to know what the outcome will be, everything else being equal. If you've ever read some of my previous contributions on this website, you would know that I'm not normally one to start sh!t, and have pretty much posted to enrich the technical fluency of this website.

I posted because I'm human, and I was disgusted at the unequivocal statements made by idiots in the flamethread in CarTalk. This thread was intended as a counterpoint which I expected to go unanswered; idiots rarely have the balls to back them up, and people-in-the-know already know what the outcome is going to be.

This whole thread flared up because somebody who knew what the outcome was going to be decided that it would be better to try to distract people away from a valid counterpoint than to let things arrive at the natural "well, this car has certain advantages, but that car has other advantages"-type detente. He wanted to get away with taking all the beans, so to speak.

What ended up happening is that he walked around the point so many times as to trace a clear outline for anybody who didn't otherwise know to see what was happening. So it was a good thing for the perception of the Acura CL that somebody finally took the challenge if just to discontinue his attempts. I don't wish harm to the Acura CL, but I'm not one to back down from a debate.

scalbert

Not too surprising as they do weigh less and were set up differently. Many complained about the new found refinement in the E46 suspension. But when set-up and driven properly the E46 can be superior.

He can contact me directly, no need to act as a go-between.

To a proper RWD vehicle, the FWD feels noticeably different. The turn in on a RWD is always quicker and the ability to invoke oversteer with a little more throttle is nice.

But that difference is feel, although preferred by both you and I, does not signify all out superiority. My BMW feels much more confident in taking turns near my home but I can take the turns at nearly the same speed in my CL-S6. Of interest, I can exit faster in the CL-S6 which is significant and surprising provided I entered the turn correctly. This FWD boat, as many call it, requires more concentration and planning to go fast but it certainly cannot be labeled as insignificant.

I often drive the mountains north of me and have one of the greatest roads to drive within a few hours, Hwy 129, Deal's Gap. I haven’t driven the 6-Speed there yet but plan to soon. It should provide an excitement level above the BMW as it is harder to go fast but can be done. Mistakes aren't as forgiving though.

IMO, you are looking at this from a seasoned racers perspective whereas 98% of the people on the forums do not take part in sanctioned racing. For the majority, even of forum members, the CL-S's limits would be enough. The characteristics are certainly different and not subject to debate. You like the handling dynamics of your IS300 as I do of my E46 328i, both excel in this area. But the CL-S is just behind and it appears that many of the IS300 owners are ignorant of this.

It appears that we agree the CL-S has better straight line pull and the IS300 handles better. Take a CL-S with just springs, sways and better tires on a tight auto-x against an IS300 with the same; the IS300 will be well in front IMO. Take the same two cars on a course like Road Atlanta, of course both will need better brakes, and the tables could turn. The transition advantage the IS300 has is negated in primarily long sweeping turns. Then the long straights would be where the CL-S6 could handily pull away. I would suspect that the outcome might be different.

As it is for me to but most IS300 owners that have come to this board making comments have no clue as to what you are referring to. Drag racing is inexpensive to get into and provides for a quick thrill. Mountain driving or an auto-x provides a different thrill; one that last more than ten to fifteen seconds (something an IS300 owner can't experience, I put it only up to fifteen seconds... JK) for most cars. But the cost is higher, entry fees, wear and tear, etc. There is always enjoyment to be had from all forms of motor sports. Executing a perfect launch is often as rewarding as hitting the perfect line, although it doesn't occur as frequently.

rustoned

Dude, don't be ignorant. I have both cars and enjoy them both. If I'm going to choose 1 of them for performance all around I'm going to pick the is300. With the right mods I'ts scary what the car can do. Unfortunately, there's limitations to the CL. I'm sure you know them.

IS_Dude

Hi scalbert.

Glad to see someone is up for a little friendly track competition. I've been following but have only just registered. If you are familiar with any AutoX schedules in Atlanta I've been looking for an excuse to come up and this will serve as a fun one.

As I've only tracked my car once I'd be less experience at that but would be up for the challenge definately. I've actually raced at the Atlanta Autocross once about 6 or so months ago. Let me know when we can arrange something.

Obviously scheduling this at an AutoX will be a simpler matter but regardless of track or AutoX it will be fun and I'm up for it.

lmk-

scalbert

Good to hear from ya...

One of the local schedules is Here

The local BMW Clubs also have events, missed this one but others are frequent: Missed Auto-x

I know this is short notice and the drive from Savannah is not quick but we are having a meet this Saturday and you are more than welcome to come: Atlanta Meet There is one other IS300 owner coming and this is meant as an auto enthusiast meet.

The Road Atlanta track days are not too frequent and limited unless you have run there numerous times.

Let's try to keep an eye on the auto-x schedules to try and meet on a specific date. Although, and as mentioned, a tight auto-x is not the CL-S's realm, I have wanted to try in this car and some friendly competition would add to the excitement. But if I run a slower time you owe me a quick straight line run so that I might be able to redeem myself a little...