joeandcarol2

I have test driven both cars and do not own either. I think I am unbiased.. I found the CL-S to be a smoother operating and more refined feeling car. Now before all you BMW guys laugh..

1. CL-S has much better tranny ergonomically. Shorter throws, lighter effort and it feels like a small sports car.

2. The 330i clutch feels like a truck clutch. Very heavy, made my leg tired. There is no need for this. The CL-S is again lighter with a better feel (somewhat subjective).

3. The 330i engine felt very non-linear in its torque output. The CL-S on the other hand seems to have a broader flatter torque band.

4. although the 330i handles better, the 03 manual CL-S is much improved over 01, 02. Not sure what was done besides the HLSD but it really worked.

5. The 330i in top gears revs too high for my taste at over 75 mph. The 6 speed CL-S uses the extra gear to its advantage.

All in all the CL-S feels more like a sports car at least for the powertrain. Its not clear at all to me that the 330i is a clear winner.

Maximized

Somebody needs to kill this thread

Chief F1 Fan

It's called gearing. I've got a cl-s and a 330, and the article is spot on.

cnatra

Actually look at the final drive & the ratios on 1st-4th,

There are minor differences on the final drive & 1st but
2nd-4th (all that's required for the 1/4 & 0-100) are virtually
identical.

cnatra

Actually it's probably more the RWD chassis & weight transfer on launch.
FWD has problems with traction on a hard launch do to unloading of the front end.
One reason a 911 excels at standing starts.

The entire 330ci vs. CL-S comparo is entertaining.

If a FWD CL-S based on the Accord platform can nip at the heels
of the benchmark German sports sedan
for 25-30% less money I think that's quite an accomplishment.
I'd take a modded 6spd CL-S over a 330ci anyday of the week.
An M3 is another story BUT that's $50k

BNut

The 30-50 and 50-70 tests would have been very interested if they had used 5th gear for the CL-S

Tom2

To get the overall gear ratios, you have to multiply the final drive ratio by the actual trans gear ratios. If you do that, you'll see that the BMW has a huge advantage. Just because the tranny ratios are close (in 2nd, 3rd, 4th) doesn't mean anything. It's the overall that matters.

Tom2

No, we were not discussing a standing start launch. The discussion was the 5-60 mph times. If you read the article, you'll see that the CL-S was quicker in this test. The reason is MOSTLY because CL-S engine makes more torque.

If you want to talk RWD and weight transfer, then you can explain why the BMW beats the CL-S from 0-60 mph. In the 5-60 mph test, that stuff is not really a determining factor.

cnatra

ahhh... I missed that part, I though you guys where discussing the 1/4 times or 0-60 times.
I agree, one would think the better torque/displacement of the Acura would make the difference.

cnatra

I agree

cnatra

yeah your right, {I hate math:sqnteek:}
but I'm surprised at the difference with the Acura's shorter (3.29)
final drive vs. the BMW's taller (2.93) final drive that the difference in 2nd-4th is that significant


Acura is 1st-12.93 2nd-8.16 3rd-5.59 4th-4.11 5th-3.22 6th-2.53


BMW is 1st-12.33 2nd-7.30 3rd-4.86 4th-3.63 5th-2.97

So really the Acura has shorter gearing across the board. Heck look at how short 1st is for the Acura.

Shouldn't the BMW's taller overall ratios put it at a disadvantage??

Where's PullT or EricL ??

Tom2

My mistake..... I mixed up the final drive ratios. I though that the BMW had the 3.29 rear.

I guess the Acura has the gearing advantage after all.....

Gabo3k

Most everyone on this board could afford a 330ci. I personally think it would be a little idiotic to pay an extra 10K for a name.

CL-S and 330ci are pretty well matched in every field.

Have you driven a CL-S. I did drive a 330ci and it did not do much for me.

joeandcarol2

I think everyone is forgetting that the final gear is the diameter of the tire. Its not just the product of transmission gear and final drive. Its the revs per MPH that is important for each gear and that will depend on the diameter of tire (I think the CL-S has larger diameter tire, but not sure) as well as the product of the two gear ratios. You should be comparing mph/rev in each gear. Note that higher MPH/Rev is a taller "gear"

cnatra

tire size calculator

215/50/17 = 25.46/diam 12.73/radius 80.0 circumference


245/45/17 = 24.72/diam 12.36/radius 77.65 circumference

so the BMW is about 3% smaller in circumference
effectivley shortening the final drive ratio

you ould calculate the complete gearing here
www.sgmotorsports.com/mph.htm

Tom2

As it has already been pointed out, the difference is tire diameter is negligible.

The Acura definitely has a gearing advantage. I guess those German horses ARE just stronger......

Gabo3k

No, not stronger German horses, the Japanesse powerplant is stronger (as indicated by the horsepower ratings). The 3 series has had over 50 years of development/evoltionization. They would have to be doing something right to last this long. I hear rumors that Acura will start developing all its cars under a rear wheel drive format. This, along with Acura's exceptional racing technology should see the performace gap close even more. I would not be surprised to see Acura ahead of BMW within say 10 years!

Zapata

Wow. RWD Acura's???? I'd be very suprised but if Acura does want to be the competative and affordable alternative to BMW/Mercedes then they will have to go RWD but i don't think that would happen until they implemented IMA.

Tom2

No shit, sherlock.

Did you notice the " " at the end of the sentence? That was indicating that I was joking. We all know that the "Japanesse powerplant is stronger (as indicated by the horsepower ratings)"

I was implying (jokingly) that each one of the 225 GERMAN horses (HP) must be stronger than each one of the 260 JAPANESE horses (HP).

scalbert

Unfortunately there were no slalom numbers in this test, just and emergency lane change speed value. Had there been a full slalom run I would expect the margin difference to be even greater than the one shown for emergency lane change. But regardless, the nearly 3.5 MPH difference is significant. I would expect 4 - 5 MPH in a full slalom run which is very significant and not closely matched.

Although the skid pad numbers were close, this doesn't show the true dynamics of a car on a track (or on the back roads). Transitioning the weight of the car in a controlled fashion has always been a key point in a BMW and is shown when slalom numbers are run. Putting sways and springs on the CL-S will diminish this margin but not remove it all at the sacrifice of around-town driving, creating a harsher ride.

Oh yea, and I just got out of my CL-S so I have driven one... As for driving a 3 series, you won't be able to get a feel for it unless in the right conditions; unfortunately many people do buy the car for the badge, but there are others who do buy it for the thrill of driving. In a drag race I would expect the CL-S to do well. But when pushed, the BMW has a much higher threshold and does not get as squirrelly as quick as the CL-S. The BMW just inspires more confidence and rewards you with it.

In my case, I drive my wife's '99 E46 328i and know it is slower in a drag race, I know the 330i has more power but mine does weigh in about 150 lbs less than the current 330i. (I do wish Dinan would come out with a blower for it). Particularly now with the parts on the CL-S; but it takes more careful driving and better lines in the CL-S in order to hang with the 328i when the turns get tight.

CrazyHorse

Just my 2 cents.

When I first looked at buying a car in 2000, the CLS just came out and the 330Ci didn't exist. So, I test drove the CLS and the 323Ci, NOT the 328Ci, because the 323Ci, with similar features to the CLS, was CLOSE to the price of the CLS. It was still MORE money, but close. The 328Ci was COMPLETELY out of my price range similarly equipped.

When I stepped on the gas of the 323Ci, I almost laughed. I told the dealer right away that there was no chance in me ever buying that car, hence I owned an 01' CLS. Since then I have traded up to the 03' manual and couldn't be happier. (Finally got rid of 2 things that were bothering me, no navi and shitty auto)

Here are 2 scenarios that I propse, and offer my opinion:

1) 330Ci and 03' CLS Manual with Navi side by side, for free, which do you choose?
My Opinion: BMW

2) 330Ci and 03' CLS Manual side by side with 8k on passengers seat of CLS, which do you choose?
My Opinion: CLS because 8k is worth more to me then what BMW has over CLS

Money plays big role since we all are not millionaires.

Tom2

If you were to take the BMW, you'd have that $8K "in the car", just not the cash in hand. And since both cars would depreciate, you'd eventually get that $8K back when it is time to sell/trade-in. Actually, the BMW would have a better resale value, so you would probably even do better.

After a year and a half, I sold my E36 M3 for less than a $2K loss. Not too bad, huh?

F=ma_RENAMED

If that's the case, I'll buy a FRONT WHEEL DRIVE Mazda MP3 and destroy M5's, 911's, Supra's, and Viper's in the twisties, right?

DJF

Why might it take 10 years for Acura to surpass BMW when the two cars are so damn close now?

Styling? My 2 cents: I think the 3-Series needs a total re-do. It's had the same basic design since the mid-90's. The new A4, to me, so out designs the BMW it's not even funny.

Someone should send all our post responses to the clowns at C&D.

Maximized

Maybe on an autocross course....What kinda numbers does the MP3 do on the slalom?

scalbert

The bad part here is that many people will not pick up on the part humor to this. They'll fail to realize that the MP3 lacks power but handles exceptionally well negating this comparison.

Point being, slalom numbers alone won't tell the overall capability. But if both cars accellerate nearly the same but one running the slalom significantly faster, the one through the cones at a higher speed will dominate at the track (equal driver intended).

cnatra

Your handling assumption is a safe one but the key is equal HP.
I used to see(more than a few years ago) Miata's & Civics kick ass at the auto-X but a Z28 or properly set up 302 Mustank would kill them at the track.

I bet Z3's do well at the auto-x these days.

I bet the new 350Z will do well at both.
I'd like to see an M3 at an auot-X too.

I think I like the E36 M's better though.

F=ma_RENAMED

I don't have the exact number on me, but I believe its right at 70 mph. The only FWD car that can come close to touching that is an ITR. Most RWD sports cars don't even come close. It really is a fluke of nature.