hello friends... posted thread in aligment section but did not get much feedback. I'm getting an awful tire wear on the inside. Aligment shop says everything is within tolerances (their computer loads same vehicle with all specs). I can see the camber a bit off (place construction level on wheel side and shows some inclination). Top of wheel leaning slightly inwards (towards engine). I have heard of people adjusting (correcting) by adding some washers as spacers??? could really use some help here... sounds very ghetto but all comments are welcome (I do not have many options here to get a propper camber kit). Thanks in advance for the help

 

Does it look feathered or is it sharp?

 

I have some marginal wear on the inside edge of my front driver side as well. The alignment people say it is not a concern. I had some degenerate SOB speeding through a school zone hit-and-run me back in 2004 and that side has never been the same.

? civicdrivr, logic tells me that the addition/removal of the radius rod washers on either side of the radius rod bushings would affect/adjust the positive/negative caster position of the wheel.

Not to thread jack; but, does anyone know what type of problems would present themselves if these (pos/neg caster) specs were out of wack??

 

Caster effects steering. Positive camber = straight line stability. Negative camber = favorable for cornering.

As long as both sides were the same, you shouldnt notice anthing. If they are different, the car could pull to one side.

Caster does change depending on the situation though, the number isnt always static. If you lower a car, you are gaining negative camber (the radius rod is moving up but isnt getting shorter).

I doubt caster is what is causing that bit of wear. Thats either camber or toe that is causing it.

 

If the pos/neg camber were "wack" or out of spec you would have uneven tire wear on the wheel. This would also throw off your steering alignment.

Misread that and thought you meant camber.. as for caster... im sure that would cause a problem if both front wheels had different caster specs. For the cl i believe caster is +2 degrees 48', (+ or -) 1 degree I can get the specs for our cars in a bit and post them up here.

 

i just got the ingalls camber kit adjustable control arms with +1- +5 degrees of adjustment. i plan on lowering the car a good 1-5 inches, maybe 2 so these will be able to get the car back to zero for the camber.

I hate slanted wheels on our cars it looks stupid. IMHO

i'm going to be lowering my car in a week or so and i'm just gonna throw them on, on +1 degrees and that should bring it right near spec before I go get an alignment.

i'd get the adjustable control arms if ur out of spec more than you feel you should be. i know it's expensive but if you just get the adjustable ball joint u can bottom it out and it will hit the bottom of ur strut mount.

 

When I get a set of new tires shortly, I will cough up the additional $180 and go to Firestone for their lifetime alignment service. The manager of the one I have in mind stated that if my lowered car (CT springs) can get on the rack they will provide the service. Their website states that they will perform alignments every 6K miles for as long as I own the car.

 

Hello again, sorry for not updating in my theread, was away for a while. The wear I see in tire is in the edge, just where the wall meets the "flat" side where the threads are... by the excelent images posted by civicdrvr I can guess my problem might be Toe related. Would appreciate if someone can post the specs (maybe S6SMike? would be so kind as he offered to do so...) Really appreciatee the help, happy that I can allways learn a lot here. All the best!

 

go in for an alignment every 6K??

lol are they that bad it goes out of wack that fast?

an alignment should never go out of wack unless something comes loose or changes are made to the tires/suspension.

i've never had or seen a car that just "lost" its alignment, accept for a my work truck that gets used and abused all the time

 

Why the f*ck not? If you pay a premium for a set of high end tires, an unlimited alignment service and rotate every 5K, where's the harm?

I don't know how shitty your roads are up in Canada; but, the roads in my area blow.

 

Werd thats the deal i have with my local firestone shop, But I paid for the unlimited alignment service when it first came out which was 129.99, but it was well worth the money as an normal alignment cost anywhere from 89.99 and up depending on where you go.

And they always rotate my tires.

It was money well spent.

 

some are bad some are great.. all depends on where i'm driving, but if it's badd i go slow.

i just am not fond of going in to places and having ppl work on my car. and u gotta wait to get it done obv. that's if they aren't too busy to begin with..

everyone's different, that's just how i see it at least

 

I hear you, and it's all good. I however have the added extra weight of a S/C 'er in front of my axles and that thing is heavy. This has an affect.

I'm the same way, believe me. When service people get an eyeball on guages in the car, this peaks their interest, and a crowd gathers. However, when work like an alignment is performed, I write on the work order that 'the car is not to leave the lot for test drives without the owner being present.' Which in turn is conveyed to the Manager on the premises by yours truly. Is that anal or what; however, it prevents the car from being abused by any 'want-a-bes' that perform a service. This has never failed me.

 

That's an excellent price! The best I'll be able to do is down to about $169.99 and that's with a coupon from the weekend paper. lol

 

there is definitelly something wrong with my car's aligment, seems to be TOE related but aligment shop sais it is OK... shocks are fairly new (stock KYB)... car cas 100K miles, could this issue be related to the upper and lower arms?

 

when you go in for an alignment, they have a computer print out for you with spec ranges and where you are. Take a look at that. If everything is in check then you might just have a faulty tire.

 

tires are new (front RH worn excesivelly on edge)... the print out i have from last aligment is in spanish but goes something like: Total Convergence (toe) +1.20º then sais "semi-convergence" left +1.00º right +0.20º. Angulo de caida (camber) left +0.20º, right -0.60º. Angulo de incidecia (caster) left +1.80º, right +1.90º. Inclinacion de manguetas (king pin angle) LH +14.50º, RH +11.10. Angulo incluido (Including angle (I/A) = sleeving axis inclination (SAI) angle + camber) LH +14.70º, RH +10.50.
How does these numbers look like... for me it seems out of specs... shouldn't the TOE be like 0º on both sides? other values don't seem so bad... TOE is my main concern. All help is very welcome!

 

Id have to dig into my files to see what the stock specs for toe are, but IIRC it should not be 0*. Your print out should show what the allowable range is though.

 

print out sais for the "total toe" 0.00º with -0.20º and +0.20 tolerance and then sais on the "semi-toe" LH +0.00º / RH +0.00º with -/+ 0.10º tolerance each side. Had not paid much attention to this detail until now (not sure why the people at the shop said it was O.K. and well inside tolerance). Will really appreciate all comments.

 

Front Camber 0* =/- 1*
Rear Camber -0*30" +/- 1*
Front Total Toe 0" +/- 1/16"
Rear Total Toe 1/16" +/- 1/16"
Caster 2*48" +/- 1*

Is your car lowered? When the car is lowered the toe changes more than the camber. Hitting a pothole or curb will throw also off the alignment.

Total toe = Toe convergence
1.2* = 1/2" That's way out of spec. 8X out of spec. The only adjustment is the toe and it looks like they screwed that up. I'd ask or my money back.

Camber looks really bad too. Even though it's within spec, you should always have some negative camber unless you make turns at 5mph, then you should have 0* but never positive camber. Another thing, the camber should be as close as possible from side to side unless you racing Nascar and only turning one way.

Caster looks good and the other numbers are affected by the caster camber and toe.

I don't see any spec for the rear. Did they do a 4 wheel alignment? Most alignment shops align the front to the rear, Thrust Alignment and charge for a four wheel alignment. On a Thrust, if your rear is misaligned. they'll misalign the front to compensate.

IMO Every car needs a camber kit. The reason why Acura allows +/- 1* is because it's not adjustable. 1*=.44" Compare that to the toe tolerance, total +/- 1/16". That's .03" for each side.

 

Thanks RooEng for all the info. Vehicle is not lowered (stock). Did not want to overload post with the rear readings but they are: Total Toe +0.40 Camber -.6 (LH) and -.7 (RH)... seems just a bit off. So far I asume that the main issue is adjusting the Toe (will try a different shop, not going to mess with these guys anymore even though they are supposed to be one of the best here)
Is there another way to adjust camber besides the camber kit (i have heard many stories of honda guys adjusting it by adding some washers or spacers... is that too ghetto? camber kit is not easy to find here)... which camber kit can you reccommend (good value price/quality). Again, thanks to everybody, love my CL-S and this site rules!

 

The toe doesn't have to be exactly even. If you slightly nudge the steering wheel the other way the numbers will even out. The main concern is the amount of total toe. You could check this by using a string, you could adjust the toe yourself and come closer than the specs you posted.

I can understand people paying $180 for lifetime alignments because it's like PFM pure f... magic to most people and you need a 1/2 million dollar machine to do it right. Wrong. Even if you use a computerized machine and an ace tech, if the machine is out of calibration it not going to be accurate. Have you seen a Nascar race where they hold a bar up to the wheels to check the toe after an accident and adjust it in the pit stall in a few seconds? These guys need everything exact down to the 1/2lb of pressure in the tires.

All you need is a piece of string, tie it to one of the rear wheel spokes and hold it tight up to the front tire. Now move the string in so it barely touches the sidewall of the front tire. It should touch the rear part of the tire and have a 1/16 gap between the string and the sidewall of the front of the tire. That's 1/16" toe in. Now do that to the other side and add the numbers together assuming that the tires are both pointed inward.

Here's the same method, you might have to use this if the string hits the fender before it touches the tire. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1093484

I didn't read the whole thing but you need to do this on level ground and you need to drive forward in a straight line for about 15'. Alignment racks have plates that let the tires move around, some people use a bunch of layered wax paper or plastic bags with oil in or on them. When I do this, I just adjust it drive to get something to eat, then check again. I don't even jack the car up. It take me about 15 minutes to check and adjust.

There is no other way to adjust the camber unless you oval the mounting holes for the control arms. You need a camber kit. A good alignment shop should add that and the labor to install to the alignment instead of just trying to adjust the toe. You could buy camber kits almost anywhere but they'll most likely have to order them for you or anywhere on the internet.

 

Hello, thanks for the lesson. Question: the string should first be touching both walls of the rear tire right (should tie it from inside of rear wheel so it comes around?) - seems to me string will not be aligned if it only touches one side of the rear tire wall. Next question: can I also measure the disstance side to side between inner edge of rim (or tire wall) in the front of the wheel and in the back of the wheel (front wheels) - the distance in front should be around 1/16" shorter than in the back?

 

Technically, you should use the method in the link but for example, if the rear toe is exactly 0*, it won't matter. If it's toed in 1/16" you'll be referencing off of something that's 1/16" off BUT 1/16" over a distance of 100" is almost nothing. Also if the camber isn't even in the rear from side to side, the wheel will stick out more on one side but again, the amount is negligible.

Try it. Hold the string against one side, then both on the rear and see if it makes a difference in the front. If you do use the jackstands, make sure you place them far enough in front of and to the rear of the car, you don't want to pull the string to get it tight and the stand fall onto your car or trip over the string and knock over both.

Measuring the the front and back of the front wheel is the most accurate way. You just can't use it for the rear toe. In fact before the computerized alignment, it was the only way. Cars back then didn't have the same width front compared to the back, and since most cars were rwd, it was very common to stagger the rim and tires when using custom rims.

The only problem is it's harder to do, you have to measure at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions. In the old days, you would spin the tire and scribe a line in the tire with something sharp, then measure the front and back of the tires using the scribe lines. Now the cars are so low you need to use something like this http://www.ogracing.com/catalog/4-Ga...E-TOE-IN-GAUGE

People are now using toe plates, 2 pieces of sheetmetal, 2 tape measures. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LNG-79500
Or DIY http://crxcommunity.com/viewtopic.ph...t=7123&start=0

 

Civic is 100% right. Some good info on here! Glad to hear that people are going to their local Firestone for alignments, haha, that's where I work! Lifetime is where its at!