Getting on the Parkway yesterday morning and there is a 2000 Mitsubishi 3000GT in front of me w/ temp tags in the windshield (Guy must have bought it used). Anyways, I get in the left lane and get on it. He sees me and gets on it too. Were at 85mph and I go to downshift into 3rd as he gets a 1/4 car in front FAWK!!! Blinking Shift Light NOOOOOOOOO!!! He pulls ahead and now he thinks he got me good NOOOOOOOO!!!

I better buy that STICK SHIFT 350Z cuz I can't take this ANYMORE

I know I know I should have let off the gas and if the RPM's lowered I could shift in but I just hate having to drive a certain way because of the touchy Sport Shift

Ok, I'm done ranting..............

 

should have just thrown it into NON sportshift mode 3rd gear (ie...normal 3rd gear)

that's what i always do

 

Was that the VR-4 or SL model? Sounds more like the SL.

It sounds like you could use a "real manual" driving experience. Good choice in the Z.

 

SPORT-SHIFT



Shawn S

 

A: I don't use SportShift hardly ever if at all. It's more trouble that it's worth.

B: I don't race my car at such high speeds (unless it's the end of a race that started from a stop or a slow roll) because the upper gears on the CL-S just aren't right for that.

You got the wrong car if you want to toy with high-end speed. :-\

Btw, I assume it was the twinturbo one right? An N/A 3000GT is a weak-ass 4cyl or maybe now it's a v6?

 

Nah it's a V-6, and I actually believe our cars could hang wit an already movin GTO. They have a ton of weight, and drivetrain loss.

 

Ok, somebody help me understand. The car won't downshift to 3rd gear. But if it were the 6-sp manual, you would be able to jam the stick shift into 3rd gear anyway. Knowing that no one has driven the 6-sp, am I understanding this correctly or what?

 

3rd gear tops out at 110. He was going 85. It should have dropped to 3rd but it refused. The car overruled him for no good reason. That's why I prefer manuals. No computer to veto me.

 

Yep, V6. SL's I believe are in the 220's hp wise. My old Stealth is an RT and its 222hp. Slow as mud. Heavy, heavy, heavy. The CLS can more than hang. It'll go right by.

 

Impossible. That's just anti-SS rhetoric. Who has the real reason? And who can tell me that the same computer won't overrule you for no good reason in the 6-sp?

 

I think the manual 6-Speed will let you go into ANY gear you damn well please.
Usually FIRST and REVERSE are the only ones that have any kind of mechanical lockout.
That’s the way my 91 Legend Coupe was.

Just ask some of the RSX Type-S owners who have had “EXPLOSIVE” results downshifting into lower gears with too many revs.

Shawn S

 

Ken, I really wish someone could explain this to me. I would have been nice if there had been some notes regarding the SS downshift operation in the manual to at least make the "owner" feel better about the decision being made to kill the SS downshift from 4th to 3rd to around 85 or so (I had the same dilemma an a turn-out one day with a Stealth and had to touch the brake briefly to get it to drop into 3rd).

I certainly understand the how shifting down at 113 MPH + would probably over-rev and trash the engine, but other than durability (or other yet-to-be revealed issues [tranny reliability???]) who the heck knows. Of course, you know that there will be some moron that takes out the new 6-speed manual CLS and drops it into 3rd at some obscene speed and then complains that their car should never blow-up, since it has a rev limiter

 

How can a computer override a mechanical shifter any more than it can prevent someone from putting the wrong gas in the tank? The sport shift lever is fly-by-wire. We flip the lever but the computer gets the final say whether anything happens. Don't tell me that the computer overriding the driver's shift command is impossible. Many people have reported that it won't downshift into 3rd around 85. At that speed, you've got another 25 mph left before redline. A manual would let you shift. My old Integra never kept me from shifting. Its happened to me many times in the CL. If I hit the lever to shift from 2 to 3 while letting off the gas quickly, it will NOT upshift. Its always been that way. I must be confusing the computer and it decides I really didn't mean to shift.

 

I can't believe I never made that correlation...my car does this too, butI never ralized it was a wuick loft on the throttle that caused it...
thanks Mike!

 

I knew you were going to do that. I know this happens. It used to happen to me too, until I practiced enough with SS and have learned how to pretty much prevent it or get around it.

What I was objecting to was the "refused" as though it had a choice but decided not to or that is does it sometimes and other times it doesn't. And the "overrule" as though there's a choice in the matter and the computer decided what was best instead of listening to the driver who thought he knew best. That's not it at all. And then you said for "no good reason" but I'm sure there is an excellent reason for this; we just don't know it, apparently.

Don't make it sound like the SS is flawed, doing something other than what is was actually designed for. That's why I call it anti-SS rhetoric. I could have sworn in my old Integra that you just couldn't but the shifter in any gear you got ready to whenever you wanted. To me that's not like putting gasoline in the car, nothing even close to that. There's something mechanical going on with a lockout or something. Not a computer override, but something prevents you from putting the car in gear.

Anyway I'll post this, you make what you want of it; but it appears to be Acura's official tech specs.

Source: "SEQUENTIAL SPORTSHIFT SYSTEM

Both the 3.2 CL and the Type S are equipped with a Sequential SportShift system, similar to the one originally introduced in the NSX sports car. The CL's SportShift transmission operates as an automatic or puts gear selection in the hands of the driver, much like a manual transmission. By moving the console-mounted transmission selector handle to the left of the "Drive" position into a special SportShift gate, upshifts and downshifts can be commanded with a quick fore or aft motion. Gear selection is indicated by an LED display located in the tachometer face.

To foster the immediate feel of a manual transmission, in SportShift mode, the transmission logic commands firmer shifts that are approximately 10 percent quicker than in automatic mode. Additionally, the system is engineered to deliver an unusually quick response time to shift commands as compared to other semi-manual automatic transmissions.

Typically, the CL's transmission responds to a shift command in just 0.35 second, with the total shift completed in just over 0.9 second from the initial lever movement. These figures are quicker than those of semi-manual automatic transmissions of sports cars costing twice as much as the CL.

The Sequential SportShift system parallels the operation of a manual gearbox, but with built-in safety override features. The logic will not allow a downshift that would cause the engine to over-rev in the driver-selected lower gear. The transmission will stay in the selected gear until the vehicle approaches a complete stop and then will shift into first automatically. During acceleration, except for shifting between 1st and 2nd, the transmission will not up-shift automatically in SportShift Mode; however, should the driver fail to command an upshift in time, the engine ECU's will cut off the fuel flow to prevent the engine from over revving."

 

Since you seem to have the SS's logic down, explain the rule that makes it refuse my 2-3 shift. I'm not overreving it. So why won't it shift? And why won't it downshift from 4 to 3 at 80 while with the throttle open? Again, its not an overrev situation. You seem to get obsessed with language. I say it overrules my shift command and refuses to shift. Acura uses the word override in the 4th paragraph. That's the same thing to me. If I tell it to shift, and it doesn't, something killed the shift. I understand and like the overrev prevention. Its the other times it won't shift that pisses me off.

 

well, it's an american car, made for american roads, and american drivers. optimal response at 85 mph isn't on any of the design parameters. yes, it's annoying, but it's not to surprising, either.

 

Kinda makes me wonder if Ernie's post would read "Blasted Blown Engine Fawk!" if he had been driving a manual.

 

He was trying to downshift within the rev limits, so no blown engine. 2nd gear would have been a problem though.

 

Btw it sounds like ken interpretted your post in a different way than the rest of us did. He took "refuse" to mean that, given an identical situation, sometimes it will and sometimes it won't let you make that shift.

We understood "refuse" to just mean "it wouldn't let me do it" period, not that you were insinuating something was faulty only part of the time, but EVERY TIME.

And third gear is definitely good for at least 107-110mph, cuz when I raced that 5.0 and 4th gear kicked in and dogged me, I looked down a couple seconds after the shift and i was only at ~114mph.

 

I've found the SS's override fairly consistent but illogical. It almost always refuses my 2-3 shift when I let off the gas fast. I say almost because I'm sure I sometimes vary the timing a little without knowing. Then it will shift sometimes.

 

Perhaps I can shed some light on this behavior (I don't have the "official" rule book or source code, but let me take a poke). I believe the programming has “conflicts” that (on occasion) cannot be resolved with the current firmware. I believe that there is a case of the transmission control logic being “to smart” for its own good (grade logic, etc). It is also a multitasking system, and it is hard to know if the SS input is polled or is interrupt driven (and if interrupt driven, what priority is given to it). That one box is running the engine and transmission and there are a lot of different operations going on that need higher priority inputs.


When you lift off too long, the electronics is "thinking" that you are going to "lift-off" (slow down). You will off-course say, "this is nonsense as the CLS will not allow a shift into 1st" (and you would be quite correct). However, in the other gears, a brake tap or delay can allow or hint that you are preparing for a downshift. When I give fast predictable up-shifts to the "slushbox", it will upshift without any problems. It is only when I have an occasional mind lock (like trying to double pump the up or down stroke (due to impatience) or hit the rev-limiter that funny stuff happens. The electronics is getting various signals and trying to make decisions and I think a few of them are not "on spot". Since our particular PCM (Powertrain Control Module) AKA PGM-F1 is not reprogrammable (do correct me if someone car prove me wrong), there isn't an easy way to update/upgrade the shift logic. (If someone mentions the upcoming shift/control add-on unit from Level-10, do be sure to mention that status of all of the law suites surrounding them too).

Example, when I'm waiting on a downshift, a quick pop on the brake pedal helps "coax" the tranny down a gear; it isn't magic, but it does seem to help.

I have an opinion, and it sure isn't proof, but sometimes I think people who build computer systems try to outthink the operator. I can think of some GUI designs of a similar nature, but will spare everyone...

IF you find the holder of the source code and you can apply enough thumbscrew pressure or inducements to get them to "talk", I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of people interested (I'll pay for the phone book and thumbscrews, you pay for the remote location (as a family/club project) (j/k))


$0.02

 

Exactly. No computer can know what I'm planning on doing three steps ahead. It can only react to what I've already done. That's where a lot of my frustration comes from. It don't really fault the SS's programming. Its only a computer and its not psychic. Damn annoying though.

 

it will be very interesting to see how the SMG gearbox from BMW will behave under similar situations...

 

I wonder why you need to "lift off" and then upshifting.

The SS on my CLS never failed to upshift under steady or or WOT.
to downshift, "lift-off" down shift and no problem...

I found that downshifting with WOT does not work well.

 

Here's the situation I'm referring to: I'm making a right turn into traffic. I need to get up to say 50mph as quickly as possible but then stop accelerating. So I make the turn, get the wheels straight, and go WOT. 1-2 autoshift at redline. At 50 I'd back off the gas hard and shift into 3rd. At least that's how it works in a stick. But with SS, doing that results in the 2-3 shift being ignored and leaving me crusing at 50 mph in 2nd gear which is over 5k rpm. So the choice is between a) Keep my foot in it until the shift has completed and wind up doing 60+ by then or b) Shifting before 50 (losing acceleration) and then backing off the gas. Try to do both at once and it just ignores the shift lever.

 

Ahh..... I had to do this most of the time when I join a freaeking 2 lane HW posted at 50. The Entry to this HW is fron a stop and no acceleration lane. It is the freaking Rt-1 in Saugass, MA.

Usually, I do the option b) Shift into 3rd and lift off to slow down...

Works great for me...

 

Yeah I interpreted it differently alright. All the refusing and overruling sounded like a spoiled child that didn't want to cooperate and didn't want to do the right thing; being hard-headed. Now that's just being anti-SS.

We all know the SS encounters 10,000 situations and it can only handle 9,000 of those properly and the manual shift would probably handle 9,800 of those. So what. Of course there are some situations the SS doesn't handle perfectly. Like the one above, where you can't do 50 mph. Gheez, for a second there I thought you were going to say the SS concept is flawed because it can't handle that situation above.

Here's how you deal with that. You learn which situation the SS will handle, evaluate it as a suitable substitute, then utilize it and live with it. It's just a car.

In the end, put it in auto, and you'll be fine. Or maybe there's something wrong with auto, too?

 

I'll say it again...........Sport-Shift BLOWS !!!!!
It's for Lazy-ass people who like to pretend they are driving a manual.
SPORT-SHIFT



Shawn S

 

Except for overrev protection, I don't understand why the SS won't ALWAYS do what its told. The steering system will let you turn into a guard rail. Why won't the transmission just follow orders? The concept of SS is good. I just think there's too many little rules to deal with. They should advertise it as "SportShift allows the driver to shift the car as in a manual*"

*Well, you have no 1-2 or 2-1 control
*It will still downshift from 5 or 4 to 4 or 3 when you go aroud a corner but unless you watch the LED you won't know what gear you're in when you come out of the turn
*Not if you WOT at 80 and try to go from 4 to 3
*Not if you back of the gas and upshfit at the same time

I think they should have made SS more manual. If someone doesn't want to shift they're free to use D5, D4, or D3.

 

Ok I can agree with this. But in defense of SS (since that's all we have right now), I can honestly say that if you have practiced with it and learned how it operates and what some of the quarks are, by now most of these little annoyances would have been overcome and would simply be a "non-issue". Why not just practice with it until you are comfortable with what is does and doesn't do and adapt to your new "SS" driving style (which is arguably no less superior to a manual-shift style)?

 

From the early reviews, it looks rather nice. The addition of various sport mode settings does a good job of making a "wide audience" of users happy. They had that report/review on it in C&D or R/T (forgot which)...


(Don't leave the dealer without one...)