mattg

the nameplate goes to the rear of the engine

SCTL-SS

Very impressive gains on just some basic mods. Good to see that there is perhaps real alternative to the Comptechs. You guys have fun at the track and post those results as well.

UNCTYPE-S

the results look good, now hopefully these last, dont crack or anything like that.

blader

Did anyone notice the air\fuel ratio on his dyno ......... ?

A PERFECT 13.0 straight to 5500 RPM. Then dips to 12.0 til 6200, then jumps back up to about 13.1 or 13.2 ..........

this is much leaner than any other CL ever dynoed that I've seen .. most of the guys on the west coast that got the unichip were dynoing at 11.0:1 air fuel ratio's. And alot of us that were having problems running lean were dynoing 12.0:1 .... and with a properly tuned unichip, we should see the optimum air fuel ratio for our car, which is 13.0-13.2. It appears as if he is reaching this A\F on the stock ECU .... unless you didnt mention that you have a unichip. Very weird?

I see that your in portland oregon .. I think thats close to unichip .. you should stop by there and have them dyno your car, maybe that could give them a clue as to why some of the CL's are baseline dynoing different than others.

bigguyonbike

i do not have unichip. was looking into it until all the issues came up. 13.0:1 is normal i believe. i'll ask a tech when i go into the dealer on thurs to get my oil jet install if that air/fuel ratio is normal.

wouldn't i make more power if i can keep the 13.0:1 across the whole rpm range or will the ecu back the timing off? can someone explain this to me.

blader

Well, 13.0 is the optimum A\F for our cars, but NO ONE has dynoed to that stock as of yet. Your not really supposed to. I don't get why you did?

All stock CLS's were dynoing either 11.0:1 or 12.0:1

rezurex

got a question... did you guys leave the stock cover for the headers on? i think its called the heat shield. i have mine off.... is that a bad thing?

mattg

no, it should be off

furious

You can not use it once you put the headers on.

bigguyonbike

could it be from the hyperground wires & voltage system?

Joe5.0

12.5:1 is the theoretical "perfect" a:f ratio for an NA car like the CL-S. 13:1 is not really that lean, not dangerously anyways. If he had a SC then yeah that'd be too lean. I find it odd that people with the Unichip had a/f's in the 12.0's because usually aftermarket chips make most of their power by leaning out the rich factory a/f ratio.

blader

You completely mis-read everything I said, and your information is off. I didnt say people with the unichip were dynoing 12.0's. I said on BASE mapping (stock ecu) people were dynoing somewhere between 11.0 and 12.0. Unichip still does not know why some CL's dyno richer than others but it is happening. The original cars tested by Unichip were ALL 11.0. So they leaned the mixture to 13.2. After much testing, the car produced the best power on 13.2. This is considered the optimal A\F to be at for an NA CLS. After the chips went out, people were dynoing 12.0 stock and their A\F after chip was reaching low 14s, some even mid to high 14s.

This guy however is dynoing 13.1ish stock which is where it should be for the best performance .. my question is how did he get there on base mapping. I dont think it could be from the hyper ground kit but then again I guess no one ever tested for that!?

furious

I am hearing alot of bad things about the unichip. I will wait until very thing gets fixed with there problems.

bigguyonbike

i'll remove the hyperground system and do some testing this weekend. maybe we have another mod to consider if it's responsible for the A/F results.

berny

If anyone can get me a good price on AW headers, I'll buy them.

Amoeba

Looking at that dyno, it seems as if the power drops off at 6700rpm, and then after it drops below the normal power. So with intake and alpha werks headers is it safe to say that it is better to shift at 6700rpm when racing on the track to get better established times.

furious

I was looking at the dyno also and it was done on SAE, and i have seen in the past that most people do it on STD. Which one is better? Which one shows the most power?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Take it to the redline each time, otherwise you will fall out of Vtec on the shifts.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

It is SAE corrected.

STD's require you to see a doctor

Amoeba

but mrsteve, what about that power loss after 6700rpm as the dyno shows, wouldnt that hurt you more than anything

Red-CL

Red-CL

He could've just let off knowing he was past the peak of the curve. He had to otherwise that drop doesn't make any sense.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

That's just how the CL-S dyno's:

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Hondas with vtec seem to like it right around 13.5:1.

bigguyonbike

to answer the question of why my A/F ratio is 13.0:1 is simple. OEM setting is 12.5:1 and the car is actually doing what it's suppose to do. on the dyno, measuring A/F is often inaccurate because the car is not moving and cl-s are very sensitive to temperture changes. the car ecu will adjust A/F mixtures accordingly depending on the intake air temperture (IAT) and at the dyno the fan for cooling the car is inadequate. while the car spins to 105mph the fan is only blowing at 10 to 15mph which result in a hotter IAT. as you know hot or warm air is less dense in air molecule then cold air. the car will automaticly lean the mixture to compensate for thinking there is less air molecule when your on the dyno because the IAT never drops. this is the reason why my A/F ratio is at 13.0:1.
but when your driving it's a different story. the IAT will drop and cause the ecu to richen the mixture for the stock A/F of 12.5:1. so when doing any type on A/F adjustments it is very important to do it while you drive because on the dyno, depending on temperture it will always read .5 pts higher or lower.
this should answer the questions for 14.0:1 reading on car with unichip. that's why people were feeling the power and not seeing it on their dyno graph. when many of the members here dyno with this high A/F i'm guessing it was around 70 to 80 degree temperture. so technically with unichip the car is performing at the optimal A/F of 13.5.1.

pimpinTL02

so these alpha werks headers are better than OBX headers as far as fitment issues, cracking issues.. ??????????

Amoeba

yes fitment they went on perfectly according to the shop, i dont know about cracking, but i hear the welds are a lot better, we will see over time.

pimpinTL02

and how much hp and tq these headers offer?

pimpinTL02

well for TL-S.... dont know if that makes a difference from CL

UNCTYPE-S

this will take some time for people to build up their trust with this company, and buy these. sure they seem great right now, but what about 1-2 yrs or more how they will handle. thats why im waiting.

not saying these are bad headers, but something seems a little fishy when ur buying them for like 400 bucks and people say they fit, perform, and hold up like the comptech ones.......but the comptechs seem to be 3x's as much as these.

Amoeba

you mean paying $285 for a new set

Red-CL

Comptech is the only company that has known quality headers. They can charge what they want people are still going to buy. When were given an quality alternative (so far), Comptech no longer has a monopoly over the headers for the CL/TL. Prices could possibly drop.

Even with all the R&D, I'm sure it only cost Comptech no more than $100 to make a set of headers.

rezurex

buying ct parts is also buying the ct name brand. 1100 = big profit for ct per header sale

UNCTYPE-S

like i said, only time will tell the quality of the alpha werks

blader

Says who? Where are you getting your information from? plenty of CLS's dynoed before\after the unichip, I have NEVER heard of anyone dynoing a 13.0:1 on base mapping besides yourself. The "OEM Setting" is not 12.5:1, infact, EVERY CLS that unichip dynoed themselves came up at 11.0:1 on base mapping. Others have dynoed 12.0:1 including myself. It is hard to guage whether or not the car is "doing what its suppose to do" because its been found that not every CLS seems to do the same thing.

Unichip not only dyno tuned the first set of chips but they also street tuned them. They hooked up the lambda meter to watch the A\F and took the car for a ride. It read roughly the same A\F. So I guess your theory is a little off.

And IAT alone does not determine what your AFR will be. In open loop mode its been found that your water temperature also plays a role in determining AFR

Unichip tuned on the dyno as well as a street tune, with little negligible changes to the AFR. They certainly did not read ".5 pts higher or lower". I have no idea where your getting your information from.

Not to mention, your information is way off and backwards. Fuel cools down the combustion chamber. Thats why cars burn up the motor when they lean out, too much air not enough fuel. If your IAT and water temp is too hot, it will richen the mixture to cool down the combustion chamber. If your IAT and water temp is colder, if will let more air in because it feels that it is safe to do so. This is the reason why half of the stock CLS's were dynoing 11.0:1 and the others were around 12.0:1.

The car will not try to maintain 12.5:1 in all conditions during open loop mode like your are saying. The only time the car tries to maintain a steady AFR is during closed loop operations, when the government mandates that the car must run at 14.7:1 for emissions regulations. The AFR during open loop is dependent on other factors. The water temp and IAT have a big impact on this, and both can change it accordingly, humidity also plays a part in it; but the car will not always try to keep it at 12.5:1 like your saying. Infact its very rare it even goes that lean on base mapping. Like I said, most stock CLS's have been found to be in the 11.0:1-12.0:1 range.

No, it doesnt answer the question. Jack at Unichip is an EXTREMELY smart guy. Anyone who's had a conversation with him on the phone knows what I'm talking about. Sometimes he just starts talking and you can't even follow what the hell he's saying. Do you really think if the answer was as simple as your making it seem, that he would've let all those chips out knowing they would be ".5 pts higher or lower"? They are not new at this. They've made thousands of chips and I'm sure they have tuned hundreds of cars. And I'm sure just as they did the CLS chip, they street tuned all their chips if they had the car available to do so.

Did you even read the unichip thread? Its not as simple as saying "feeling the power". Its WHERE you feel the power that was the problem. The chips biggest claim to fame is the area "under the curve". Power that isnt really shown on the dyno. Just about everyone that got the chip agreed that throttle response much improved, and low to midrange torque greatly improved, I can vouch for that myself. But it was the top end that caused a problem. Everyone felt as if the car ran out of steam from 4500 to redline.

No, technically its not. Your ".5 pts" rule really has no basis .. I've never read any information concerning that your AFR will always be .5 pts off due to temp. And according to the countless phone conversations I had with Jack, the car runs best from 13.0 to 13.2, not 13.5.

Red-CL

^^^^^^Ouch.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

bigguyonbike

blader,
i've been working with jack at unichip for the past week to find a solution for all the problems we are having. his answer is what i posted. you can call him yourself if you think i'm lying. for you to say that know one has a 13.0:1 A/F ratio is not true. PDX3.2TL dyno his stock TL this weekend and was just as lean as i was. your also wrong about water temperture determining AFR. it doesn't, the only thing it determines is timing.
and yes, i have read every unichip thread. that is what led me to call jack.

bigguyonbike

why are you trying to be funny. you didn't even know there is a flywheel in auto cl-s.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

It was an hoenst mistake... you don't usually hear horsepower rated at the flywheel... usually at the wheels or at the crank.