7500 RPM redline...
08-06-2007, 11:47 PM
#42
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Okay I was in fact wrong about the VTEC on the J32A1 motors. It is 4,400. So I stand corrected. The FAQ link is wrong. However, if the VTEC engagement was affected by your gauges you wouldn't "hear" it until 4,800 RPM.
08-06-2007, 11:47 PM
#43
Originally Posted by YeuEmMaiMai
first off.......
To the morons whom think chaning the guage cluster changes redline...I got a bridge in brooklyn to sell you
Second........
To the morons whom think raising the redline to 7.5K plus....
Honda builds the engine based upon several factors
a. they hold back power or under rate on purpose so they can increase it if needed to compete with other manufacturers.
b. They will without a doubt choose engine longevity over a higher redline even if it means that they have to sacrafice some ponies to keep it that way.
c. It is by FAR cheaper to use cast/stamped parts than it is to use custom made parts such as light weight pullies or tubular exhaust manifolds.
The J series motors are nearly indistructable if properly maintained and their power output is very good or better compared to engines of similar displacement.
back to the first point.......
Redline is controlled by the ECU and not the guage cluster. Guage clusters are not very accurate. hook your engine scanning software into the data port and see what the ECU says the engine RPM is. ECU has to know exact RPM in order to properly run the engine.
To the morons whom think chaning the guage cluster changes redline...I got a bridge in brooklyn to sell you
Second........
To the morons whom think raising the redline to 7.5K plus....
Honda builds the engine based upon several factors
a. they hold back power or under rate on purpose so they can increase it if needed to compete with other manufacturers.
b. They will without a doubt choose engine longevity over a higher redline even if it means that they have to sacrafice some ponies to keep it that way.
c. It is by FAR cheaper to use cast/stamped parts than it is to use custom made parts such as light weight pullies or tubular exhaust manifolds.
The J series motors are nearly indistructable if properly maintained and their power output is very good or better compared to engines of similar displacement.
back to the first point.......
Redline is controlled by the ECU and not the guage cluster. Guage clusters are not very accurate. hook your engine scanning software into the data port and see what the ECU says the engine RPM is. ECU has to know exact RPM in order to properly run the engine.
...twice
08-06-2007, 11:49 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by YeuEmMaiMai
first off.......
To the morons whom think chaning the guage cluster changes redline...I got a bridge in brooklyn to sell you
Second........
To the morons whom think raising the redline to 7.5K plus....
Honda builds the engine based upon several factors
a. they hold back power or under rate on purpose so they can increase it if needed to compete with other manufacturers.
b. They will without a doubt choose engine longevity over a higher redline even if it means that they have to sacrafice some ponies to keep it that way.
c. It is by FAR cheaper to use cast/stamped parts than it is to use custom made parts such as light weight pullies or tubular exhaust manifolds.
The J series motors are nearly indistructable if properly maintained and their power output is very good or better compared to engines of similar displacement.
back to the first point.......
Redline is controlled by the ECU and not the guage cluster. Guage clusters are not very accurate. hook your engine scanning software into the data port and see what the ECU says the engine RPM is. ECU has to know exact RPM in order to properly run the engine.
To the morons whom think chaning the guage cluster changes redline...I got a bridge in brooklyn to sell you
Second........
To the morons whom think raising the redline to 7.5K plus....
Honda builds the engine based upon several factors
a. they hold back power or under rate on purpose so they can increase it if needed to compete with other manufacturers.
b. They will without a doubt choose engine longevity over a higher redline even if it means that they have to sacrafice some ponies to keep it that way.
c. It is by FAR cheaper to use cast/stamped parts than it is to use custom made parts such as light weight pullies or tubular exhaust manifolds.
The J series motors are nearly indistructable if properly maintained and their power output is very good or better compared to engines of similar displacement.
back to the first point.......
Redline is controlled by the ECU and not the guage cluster. Guage clusters are not very accurate. hook your engine scanning software into the data port and see what the ECU says the engine RPM is. ECU has to know exact RPM in order to properly run the engine.
Yes I agree. But there is the potential for an increase in power with an increase in the redline; especially with a forced induction setup. Some custom pulleys would be needed to ensure you don't overspin the accessories or the blower.
08-06-2007, 11:50 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by nbennettksu
You realize you just called typeR a moron ...twice
...twiceNo one here is infallible. Hell, people think I'm a know it all and I just admitted to a mistake 3 minutes ago.
It was a pretty ridiculous idea to think that a change in the gauge display would affect the engine output.
08-06-2007, 11:54 PM
#47
Originally Posted by mrsteve
It was a pretty ridiculous idea to think that a change in the gauge display would affect the engine output.
...and I've seen you admit to things in the past...
08-06-2007, 11:54 PM
#48
THE J35A2...
Originally Posted by YeuEmMaiMai
first off.......
To the morons whom think chaning the guage cluster changes redline...I got a bridge in brooklyn to sell you
Second........
To the morons whom think raising the redline to 7.5K plus....
Honda builds the engine based upon several factors
a. they hold back power or under rate on purpose so they can increase it if needed to compete with other manufacturers.
b. They will without a doubt choose engine longevity over a higher redline even if it means that they have to sacrafice some ponies to keep it that way.
c. It is by FAR cheaper to use cast/stamped parts than it is to use custom made parts such as light weight pullies or tubular exhaust manifolds.
The J series motors are nearly indistructable if properly maintained and their power output is very good or better compared to engines of similar displacement.
back to the first point.......
Redline is controlled by the ECU and not the guage cluster. Guage clusters are not very accurate. hook your engine scanning software into the data port and see what the ECU says the engine RPM is. ECU has to know exact RPM in order to properly run the engine.
To the morons whom think chaning the guage cluster changes redline...I got a bridge in brooklyn to sell you
Second........
To the morons whom think raising the redline to 7.5K plus....
Honda builds the engine based upon several factors
a. they hold back power or under rate on purpose so they can increase it if needed to compete with other manufacturers.
b. They will without a doubt choose engine longevity over a higher redline even if it means that they have to sacrafice some ponies to keep it that way.
c. It is by FAR cheaper to use cast/stamped parts than it is to use custom made parts such as light weight pullies or tubular exhaust manifolds.
The J series motors are nearly indistructable if properly maintained and their power output is very good or better compared to engines of similar displacement.
back to the first point.......
Redline is controlled by the ECU and not the guage cluster. Guage clusters are not very accurate. hook your engine scanning software into the data port and see what the ECU says the engine RPM is. ECU has to know exact RPM in order to properly run the engine.
08-06-2007, 11:54 PM
#49
08-07-2007, 12:16 AM
#51
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The same engine was in the TL and TL-S.
There was no need to increase the power from '01-'03 because there was no competition that was blowing the doors off the CL/TL at that time. The G35 came around in '03 and the updated, more powerful '04 TL was introduced a few months later. The BMW and the G got more power so the TL-S was introduced.
08-07-2007, 12:39 AM
#52
Blown is Best
Originally Posted by mrsteve
Yes I agree. But there is the potential for an increase in power with an increase in the redline; especially with a forced induction setup. Some custom pulleys would be needed to ensure you don't overspin the accessories or the blower.
08-07-2007, 12:41 AM
#53
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Well since we'd need something like e-Manage to tune the car anyways beyond the original settings we could monitor injector duty cycle and compensate accordingly. S2000 injectors might be required. Although at redline with the blower I recall my car running pig rich. I'm sure there was enough fuel for a few hundred more RPM.
08-07-2007, 12:58 AM
#54
Moderator Alumnus
Originally Posted by nbennettksu
just telling you guys what I'm seeing... 
my 7000rpm smack: http://videos.streetfire.net/video/7...830005ee4e.htm
my 7000rpm smack: http://videos.streetfire.net/video/7...830005ee4e.htm
08-07-2007, 01:06 AM
#55
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Looking at my dyno graph I gained about 15-20whp every 500 RPM and the power didn't even begin to drop where the dyno stops.
Unfortunately this debate is probably fruitless because I don't think we'll be able to adjust the fuel cut.
Unfortunately this debate is probably fruitless because I don't think we'll be able to adjust the fuel cut.
08-07-2007, 01:36 AM
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I'm sure people have noticed that even though the "redline" on the CLs is 6900, rev limiter is not until 7200. Tomorrow I will use the VTEC controller and compare tach rpms to ecu signal (or whatever the component is) rpms. My speedo needle jumps awkwardly at times instead of a smooth sweep, almost like it hesitates then has to catch up. Maybe VSS starting to go downhill. The tach and speedo have been known to act goofy sometimes...
To answer the question
the gauge does not control engine redline. I am sure if someone were to put a CL tach in a CLs, this myth would be busted as the engine would pull 1k+ past supposed redline.
And
with just headers the HP is still gaining (or at worst peaking) at redline on every CLs dyno I have seen. A higher rpm could be beneficial for HP, with hopes the TQ would do more plateau-ing instead of dipping.
To answer the question
the gauge does not control engine redline. I am sure if someone were to put a CL tach in a CLs, this myth would be busted as the engine would pull 1k+ past supposed redline. And
with just headers the HP is still gaining (or at worst peaking) at redline on every CLs dyno I have seen. A higher rpm could be beneficial for HP, with hopes the TQ would do more plateau-ing instead of dipping.
08-07-2007, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by NightRider
I'm sure people have noticed that even though the "redline" on the CLs is 6900, rev limiter is not until 7200. Tomorrow I will use the VTEC controller and compare tach rpms to ecu signal (or whatever the component is) rpms. My speedo needle jumps awkwardly at times instead of a smooth sweep, almost like it hesitates then has to catch up. Maybe VSS starting to go downhill. The tach and speedo have been known to act goofy sometimes...
To answer the question the gauge does not control engine redline. I am sure if someone were to put a CL tach in a CLs, this myth would be busted as the engine would pull 1k+ past supposed redline.
And with just headers the HP is still gaining (or at worst peaking) at redline on every CLs dyno I have seen. A higher rpm could be beneficial for HP, with hopes the TQ would do more plateau-ing instead of dipping.
To answer the question
the gauge does not control engine redline. I am sure if someone were to put a CL tach in a CLs, this myth would be busted as the engine would pull 1k+ past supposed redline. And
with just headers the HP is still gaining (or at worst peaking) at redline on every CLs dyno I have seen. A higher rpm could be beneficial for HP, with hopes the TQ would do more plateau-ing instead of dipping.
08-07-2007, 02:05 AM
#59
Originally Posted by Allout
My recent dyno supports what you're saying Steve. I too believe that there's potential HP with an increase in redline. Not sure where fuel runs out though.
Your HP is going up but thats only because torque isn't dropping fast enough, yet. Past 7000 I bet it will, maybe not as bad as NA but thats my
08-07-2007, 02:06 AM
#60
Well...it's kinda fast...
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Originally Posted by mrsteve
The same engine was in the TL and TL-S.
There was no need to increase the power from '01-'03 because there was no competition that was blowing the doors off the CL/TL at that time. The G35 came around in '03 and the updated, more powerful '04 TL was introduced a few months later. The BMW and the G got more power so the TL-S was introduced.
I completely agree that at the time there was no real competition for the CL-S. I also feel that it is because of our cars specifically that helped start this entire "HP War" that we've been seeing for the past 4-5years now between Lexus, Infiniti, BMW and Acura. Too bad we're losing.
08-07-2007, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 2CLean
Actually, isn't the TL-S engine a modified RL engine and not a J32A2 stroked to 3.5?
The J-Series motors all share the same technology and development.
08-07-2007, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Accord_V6_400m
I'm one of those that would like to increase my rev limit, but looking at your dyno your torque is already going downhill and will only fall faster, unless you get some valvetrain mods.
Your HP is going up but thats only because torque isn't dropping fast enough, yet. Past 7000 I bet it will, maybe not as bad as NA but thats my
Your HP is going up but thats only because torque isn't dropping fast enough, yet. Past 7000 I bet it will, maybe not as bad as NA but thats my
08-07-2007, 02:13 AM
#63
Well...it's kinda fast...
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Originally Posted by mrsteve
The J-Series motors all share the same technology and development.
But I do see your point.
08-07-2007, 02:17 AM
#64
Originally Posted by mrsteve
His graph is extremely narrow. If you were to stretch out the plot on to a more traditional graph the drop obviously wouldn't look so sharp. Looking at my graph I only lose 8 ft-lbs from 6500-7000 RPM. Only 20 ft-lbs is lost from 4,800 RPM (peak) to 7,000 RPM. So even if we were to lose an additional 10-12 ft-lbs from 7,000-7,500 RPM I think the increase of 15-20 hp would make it worthwhile.
Just tell me how much torque you expect to have at 6500, 7000 and 7500.
Looking back at his dynapack dyno and looking at the numbers themselves I see your point, FI has the potential to make more power up to 7500, its definitely worthb a try, how about using a HKS fuel cut defencer?
08-07-2007, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 2CLean
I realize that, but they're not the same engine. It's like saying the 3.2 in the last NSX is the same engine, which we all know is not the case. Similar technology, yes, but not the same engine
But I do see your point.
But I do see your point.
No. It wouldn't be like saying the NSX is the same engine. The NSX is a C-Series motor with DOHC. The J-Series motor in the CL, CL-S, TL's, MDX, RL, Accord, etc are all J-Series motors. They are all adaptations of each other. They share similar technology and many of the same parts.
The topic was raised because someone said Acura didn't improve upon the J32A2 to increase horsepower. That's simply false. They did with the J32A3 for the new TL. Just like the improved upon the J30A1 for the 2nd Gen CL/TL. The adapted the J-Series platform many times to include the J35A3 found in the RL and the TL-S.
08-07-2007, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Accord_V6_400m
Whats up with the cross over points on the graph they cross each other at different points and neither is 5252.
Just tell me how much torque you expect to have at 6500, 7000 and 7500.
Just tell me how much torque you expect to have at 6500, 7000 and 7500.
Notice there are two different scales. On the left for HP and on the right for TQ. Thus the cross over is not 5252.
08-07-2007, 02:21 AM
#67
Originally Posted by mrsteve
Notice there are two different scales. On the left for HP and on the right for TQ. Thus the cross over is not 5252.
08-07-2007, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Accord_V6_400m
Just tell me how much torque you expect to have at 6500, 7000 and 7500.
Looks like I was making 226 ft-lbs at 6500... 218 ft-lbs at 7000... I'd guess 205 ft-lbs at 7500.
08-07-2007, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Accord_V6_400m
Yeah I noticed that its set for 6.3K but still des that only apply to one of the graphs on that sheet? They should still crossover at the same point if they are both using the same scale, or would they?
You have to use the same scale along the Y-Axis for the mathematics to work out so that both plots cross at 5252.
Or so I have been led to believe.
08-07-2007, 02:25 AM
#72
Originally Posted by mrsteve
You have to use the same scale along the Y-Axis for the mathematics to work out so that both plots cross at 5252.
Or so I have been led to believe.
Or so I have been led to believe.
08-07-2007, 02:32 AM
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Well now that I look at it I'm not sure it would drop all the way to 205. I only lose 16 ft-lbs from 5500 to 7000. So a drop of 13 ft-lbs from 7000 to 7500 might be over estimating it a bit.
I would bet with some tuning (that dyno is from a car tuned only with a rising rate FPR and MAP voltage clamp) and 500 more RPM I could pick up 15-20 whp.
I would bet with some tuning (that dyno is from a car tuned only with a rising rate FPR and MAP voltage clamp) and 500 more RPM I could pick up 15-20 whp.
08-07-2007, 02:36 AM
#76
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Originally Posted by mrsteve
No. It wouldn't be like saying the NSX is the same engine. The NSX is a C-Series motor with DOHC. The J-Series motor in the CL, CL-S, TL's, MDX, RL, Accord, etc are all J-Series motors. They are all adaptations of each other. They share similar technology and many of the same parts.
The topic was raised because someone said Acura didn't improve upon the J32A2 to increase horsepower. That's simply false. They did with the J32A3 for the new TL. Just like the improved upon the J30A1 for the 2nd Gen CL/TL. The adapted the J-Series platform many times to include the J35A3 found in the RL and the TL-S.
The topic was raised because someone said Acura didn't improve upon the J32A2 to increase horsepower. That's simply false. They did with the J32A3 for the new TL. Just like the improved upon the J30A1 for the 2nd Gen CL/TL. The adapted the J-Series platform many times to include the J35A3 found in the RL and the TL-S.
08-07-2007, 02:37 AM
#77
Originally Posted by mrsteve
Well now that I look at it I'm not sure it would drop all the way to 205. I only lose 16 ft-lbs from 5500 to 7000. So a drop of 13 ft-lbs from 7000 to 7500 might be over estimating it a bit.
I would bet with some tuning (that dyno is from a car tuned only with a rising rate FPR and MAP voltage clamp) and 500 more RPM I could pick up 15-20 whp.
I would bet with some tuning (that dyno is from a car tuned only with a rising rate FPR and MAP voltage clamp) and 500 more RPM I could pick up 15-20 whp.
Still when you look at it, you still get you use your gearing advantage for longer so it that sense, you have more torque and why not extend it if the torque curve keeps going a tad bit.
This discussion here is partially why im dissapointed with the stroker 3.5s running 3.2 cams. What happened with those cams CleanCL was making or had made?
08-07-2007, 02:42 AM
#78
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I think 9,000 RPM may be a little overkill on these platforms 
At that RPM on this motor the mean piston speed would be (slightly) greater than that found on a Honda F1 motor and faster than a Honda S2000 motor.
At that RPM on this motor the mean piston speed would be (slightly) greater than that found on a Honda F1 motor and faster than a Honda S2000 motor.
08-07-2007, 02:44 AM
#79
Originally Posted by mrsteve
I think 9,000 RPM may be a little overkill on these platforms
At that RPM on this motor the mean piston speed would be (slightly) greater than that found on a Honda F1 motor and faster than a Honda S2000 motor.
At that RPM on this motor the mean piston speed would be (slightly) greater than that found on a Honda F1 motor and faster than a Honda S2000 motor.
On a SOHC V6 no less 