codehead

In another thread, we got off topic and onto a discussion about the cost difference in cost between a 330ci and the CL-S. I don't want to start a flame war, but just wanted to recap the price realities now that I've actually purchased.

The 330ci no doubt benefits from a strong resale value, certainly within the first couple of years at least. But I'm just addressing purchase price.

I did test drive the 330ci equiped as I'd buy it except that it had an automatic tranny instead of the manual I'd want (the dealer didn't have manuals--I'd have to order and wait 2.5 months to even take one for a spin). Lest anyone think I have something against the BMW, let me say that I've always wanted one--it's my favorite manufacturer. I went to buy a '89 325i back when I got my Legend, but the dealer was filled with jerks who were hard pressed to even point me towards one when they found out I was after only a 3-series--their own fault I got the Legend and I've never regretted it. Plus, I drove the 2002 330ci and it didn't let me down one bit. An awesome vehicle. It just felt great. But again this is about the realities of the price.

I bought a CL-S 6MT, with the only options being splash guards and wheel locks, which the dealer threw in. The 330ci I'd buy is the basic model with manual tranny, metallic paint, sport package, premium package, cold weather package, and HID lights. This puts it basically even with the CL-S on features (add $600 to the 330 for a 6-CD changer, but since the 330 has subwoofers I'll call it a wash, plus I didn't want to eat trunk or glovebox space for the added changer).

The 2003 CL-S 6MT cost me $12,300 less than the 2002 330ci would cost me. JerryG got a great deal on his, being in Texas with four nearby dealers (cost + $1k); if I could get that deal, it would only be $10k more than the CL cost me. If I was an automatic driver, the CL would have cost even less (manuals being scarce and not heavily discounted), and $1275 + tax would be added to the 330ci to widen the gap.

Most people I know who have shopped the CL and the 330 say there's about a $10k-12k difference, and that what I came up with in my situation--$10k if you take my best price and Jerry's best price, or $12k if I have to buy from my nearest dealer and not shop.

Again, I love the 330ci, so please don't flame me--If they were both the same price, or not far, I'd have the 330ci in my garage right now. If $12k means nothing to you, I'm happy for you, but for me it's a new kitchen (and I need one). I'm just putting this up to help anyone in the same shopping position, particularly since some people were saying the difference was only about $7k and the mags always quote the base price of the 330ci and tell you there's $4k difference. (To compare prices for any configuration, check http://www.bmwusa.com and http://www.acura.com, choose "build your own".)

Red Nj-s

I agree with you, but i think Bimmer buyers pay the extra buck for the look. It is no doubt a hotter and more respected ride. The Cl is still the better value to most people. We already know all this.

JZ

Yep, my thoughts exactly. Car mags should quote comparable prices not base prices since it is quite obvious that the Japanese throw in a lot with their base cars while the Germans make you pay for every stinking option.

Having driven the 6MT and the 330 manual I would no doubt have made the same decision as you!

One thing that the Bimmer will never have is that VTEC rush that is so friggin addictive I don't know if I'll ever be satisfied again once iVTEC takes over.


Enjoy.

ItalianStallion

this thread kinda reminds me of a phrase, a great phrase in fact. i believe it goes, BEEN THERE DONE THAT or in this case SAID THAT.

this topic has been discussed numerous times at great length, im glad you got the CL but as i said, old news.

cakennedy

Once again, allow me to take the other side.

While it's probably possible to get a $12,000 price difference between a CL-P and a 330ci, doing so would require you to check off every box on the BMW option sheet except navigation (and then we're comparing apples to lemons ).

I realize you're probably talking actual price, not MSRP, and you're right to do so. A CL is easier to buy than a BMW, in no small part to asshole BMW dealers. But I can't speak to everyone's individual situation, so I'll just recount mine:

My 330ci, specced equivalent to a CL, was about $5000 more than I could have bought as CL-S for. Quite a premium, but not quite the $10k+ margin so often quoted. And worth every penny.

PS - I'm actually a really nice guy in real life

PPS - BMW has steplessly variable intake and exhaust timing. Quite nice when you can't afford to look down to see how close you are to "the VTEC kicking in".

SiGGy

Cool you did that. I think most of us have.

But the bimmer has quite a few more things going for it with all of the options you put on it. Not a far comparison to the CLS. If you'd like I can list what the CLS is missing that the BMW will have with your chosen options... It's quite a few things. (missing and or improved/better on the bimmer)

(keep in mind I am putting your options into this)

The Acura cuts a few corners here and there.... Seats,Seat warmers, headrests, seat controls (both seats!),auto windows... leather...wood...moon roof... 50/50 balance, brakes .... these are all big improvements comapred to the CLS ... I can keep going... and or compare them directly using the Manufacturers words...

codehead

OK, I'm talking premium, cold, and sport packages, metallic paint, and HID. No other options, manual transmission. I could live without the cold package, since it's just for skiing, so subtract about $760 including tax off the $12.3k I said (my quoted 330ci price, which was MSRP + tax & license). That's my baseline--don't want the ci without those minimal options.

Spec it out for me baby. Just curious--no axe to grind here. auto? manual? what options? gotta have leather of course... If someone would have given me the 330ci for invoice, it would still be about +$8.4k (erring on the low side). Of course, that would never happen, so add another $k for even a great deal, but you see why I wonder how it was only $5k for you.

heyhey--I'm sure you are--and you're a lucky guy too

cob3683

As far as the Auto CLS vs. Auto 330CI goes, the difference is actually $10,885 with the BMW getting Premium, Cold, Sport, Navi, Auto, and HK for a total of $44,085. The Acura Type S auto/navi with nothing on it because they had none of the options that come on the BMW or because they were already standard. This price is MSRP, not what you can get it for.

codehead

I hear ya SiGGy--believe me, the German engineering and attention to detail was not lost on me. The handling, the turning radius, the smoothness of the engine, the split rear seats, the smart rain-sensing wipers, where you sit, the fat key with all the buttons in it That car is beautiful and has true harmony going for it. Lots of cars are great on certain things and you wonder what they were thinking on other things (um, G35? oh, it would be easy to come up with worse).

I'm not sure what you mean by some of your comparisons though: "auto windows"--you mean auto up/down on both front windows versus the CL's driver-only auto (and the ci has powered rear flap windows versus the CL's immovable ones), right? "leather"--you mean better leather I assume. "moon roof" not sure what you mean--didn't pay attention to what the ci's did versus the CL's. "wood"--yeah yeah, if that sort of thing matters to ya (j/k, it's nice--the G35 that I drove was funny that way--cheese-mo dashboard but a few beautiful dabs of real wood on doors and shifter--LOL).

"brakes"--yeah yeah, I've owned hondas before "Seats,Seat warmers"--I guess you think the ci was better on both counts--don't know. "headrests"--I guess you mean tiltable--yeah, noticed that about the CL first time I sat in it (but better than gf's S60--the fixed headrest had my head tilted *forward*--arg!). I like the split rear seats on the ci, but the rear seats seemed nicer on the CL--neither has the head clearance for me, some I'm just glad I don't have to be back there, and I'm only 6 ft.

Like I said, I love the 330ci. But the cars are in different price categories and my point is that price difference (that is, I'm not saying the Cl's better and costs less, I'm saying the CL costs far less and is dam good. If I wanted to drive *ugly*, I might get a WRX and argue that both the CL and ci cost too much for what you get ). The bimmer dang well better have all that, or it would be a joke at that price.

So, I've heard $7k diff and nor $5k, but I don't see it (I have the papers on my CL with the $, but so far I haven't seen the $5-7k ci that I could have gotten instead). So that's the purpose of this thread. Show me the 330ci that's $37.5k out the door that's not stripped of the features I want and have in the CL. JerryG showed me $10k--I'm waiting to see better. It one thing to say that the extra cost buys you a better car, but tormenting poor deprived CL owners by saying "for just a tiny bit more"--oh, the humanity :P

Your points about things being better, option for option, is totally valid. But for my comparision it was the minimal CL that I wanted versus the minimal ci I wanted, and that meant equivalent basic features. Can I say, "well, the ci has rain sensing wipers and better brakes, so I'll give up leather seats to make it even"? Nope. I really like the auto-up/down on both car's driver window, but I don't care at all that the ci also does it on the drivers side--not gonna pay for it. Wood is a nice touch, but it does nothing for me, performance or feature-wise--nice if it comes on board, but I'm not going to buy a car because of it. The 6-CD in dash changer does something for me--worth more than wood. The powered rear flap windows make me smile, but it doesn't keep me from buying the CL. That sort of thing.

But we're just yackin'

SiGGy

On the moon roof I was meaning its auto, and opens fully

(we are missing a bunch of other tid-bit options)

Don't forget the windows that open and close automatically from the remote ;-) (one of my favorite options)

The 330ci is more expensive, but it's a nicer car. I see you obviously know that, hehe. BMW's are completely drivers cars, 100% designed for a driver to road connection. I guess thats why most don't mind shelling out the extra $ for them. You really pay for the engineering differences. Not just sheer options.

I think Acura is trying to hit a different market. By saving some $ on the materials, and lack of certain features they can offer their vehicles at the lower cost. And still make them very appealing with features most everyone wants in a vehicle.

On a personal note I don't like the way Acura attaches the interior door skins with the door handles. They are very loose. (pull on a CLS door handle from the inside when the door is closed, or just roll the window up and down and watch that puppy bend!) And same with the rear "ohh shit" handles for the back seat passengers. It's little things like that which the germans seem to have down. So ya, I agree with you on the "German engineering and attention to detail". This being only one of many examples someone might be able to differ between the two vehicles.

So... I don't know if I missed something, but you purchsed a CLS I assume?

I still believe in the long run the 330Ci is going to give you the extra money spent back in resale. But that just my speculation. I'll check the values again in another year. I really hope my CLS doens't take any more of a hit than it has! Reminds me of a Lincoln Mark VIII

cakennedy

A few more details...

My 330ci was I think around $37,750 (give or take 100 -- I'll look it up when I get home) on a list price of $39,1XX. I got the premium package, Harmon Kardon stereo, CD player, and xenons.

I say specced comparably to a CL because it's got basically everything a CL has, except CD changer, but it does have real wood, so there's some tradeoff. When I was looking around, I think I could have gotten a CL-S for $32,XXX but I don't really know as I didn't get to the actual "best price" stage.

So there's your $5,000 difference. Of course, you can inflate that pretty easily...metallic paint, sport package, cold weather package, auto trans, a dealer who won't deal, and now you've got a $10,000 difference.

Edit: I just went and looked it up...don't know why I thought MSRP on the CL-S was over $32k. So I guess mine was more of a $6,000 difference than $5,000.

2Sxy4YoMama

Is that walk out price? If not, you might also for get all the tax, title and lic. Also, lux. tax too. You can get a CL-S out the door for about $32,xxx and cheaper for auto.

codehead

OK, I guess you're talking 2001 model year, since the stereo now is now standard (but the changer is an option)--the 2002 MSRP is $39,830 with only the options you mention. Even so, taking your $37,750 and adding tax and license for where I live, that's about $8,700 difference. Even if I don't bump it for the 2002 costs and add the options I want, that $8.7k leaves you off $5k by 74%. That's the thing I'm talking about--someone says $7k, it's really $10-11k using their numbers. You have a pretty decent setup--add metallic paint and I could live with it--still about $10k diff for me using your discount and 2002 prices.

codehead

Agreed--I think the TL/CL lines fro Acura are meant to be Accords on steroids. A little beffier, a little nicer styling, more power and better handling, loaded with stuff. That's their market.

These CL/ci discussions, though, from the Cl prospective, tend go like this:

START:
Joe: You should have bought a BMW, it's a better car
LOOP:
Moe: But that car is $10-12k more--too much for me
Joe: No, it's only $5k--here's what I paid...
Moe: Using your numbers, it's $10k
Joe: But it's a better car.
GO TO LOOP

Which is why I said up front I'm only talking about price. If people want to say it better, it's worth it, fine--that's opinion. But the *fact* is , you're talking $10-12k. Yeah, you can squeeze it down to $9k by skipping metallic paint and a few less important options, but you can just as easily pop it up to $14k diff if you're talking automatic. And this is true whether you're talking aggressive discounts on each or MSRP on each, but you have to include tax & license because we're talking about what it costs.

Hey, do I update my profile so guys like you can not bother to read that little bit at the bottom of the post?

http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...threadid=66001

I'll be sorry to sell the Legend--I just know somehwere in my old age when the CL has long been scrapped, I'll see someone drive that old coupe by me on the freeway--LOL

SiGGy

Your code works, except its running in Winblows. So it blue screens occasionally. And has to be restarted. Which is why you keep hearing "You should have bought a BMW" every once in awhile.

J/K

Time to take those UNIX courses (SGI,SUN, HP) and do some C++/PERL/PHP programming then go get Mr. BMW with the extra $$

** note my avatar ** hehe

Smitty02CLs

I have a 2002 Cls/Navi, my g-friend has a 2001, 330i. Everytime I ride in her car is feels weird to me, it nothing like my Cls, the car is stiffer and you feel every bump. I think the outside looks better then the Cls, however the interior doesn't. I feel like I got much more for less money

codehead

LOL--I can appreciate that. Actually, I've been doing a little UNIX lately after a long absense (Mac OSX is BSD UNIX underneath--pop into a shell and do whatever you want).

BNut

This is what killed the CL-S 6MT for me, its FWD. I already own a FWD V6 Accord, and for my next car I wanted a RWD stick.

I don't want a domestic so scratch those off the list.

That leaves me with IS300 (exterior and interior does not suit my tastes) and the 330Ci.

I guess you could throw in the 350Z but I'd rather not have to wait until October to get the car.

When it comes to VALUE I don't think you can beat the CL-S. When it comes all around QUALITY, I don't think the 330 can be beat. When it comes to something in b/w, then the IS300 is king.

Kkranghkar

This could so easily be settled if people just put down all the info in a simple table so there's no stupid arguments, and used MSRP for both cars instead of out-the-door price for the CL and invoice for the BMW, etc.


So, here you go Siggy, just so you know how DAMN POINTLESS these arguments are, in WHATEVER language:

C++
UNIX shell
I'd do Perl but it looks almost exactly like C++

BNut

Oh man, endl's are so outdated!

What about \n to end a line?

SiGGy

LMAO

It was a joke dude! against MS! if you would have taken the time to READ!!!!

obviously you didn't get it. And might want to brush up on those programming skills. hehe j/k as you didn't write them correctly... (and no I don't mean the method of writing to the screen you choose,a dn your carriage returns. your loops are incorrect)

The main print "You should have bought a BMW, it's a better car" was outside of the infinite loop. Which is why I put the MS joke in. It meant every once in awhile WINBLOWS crashses and you have to restart. HENCE hear the stupid line "Joe: You should have bought a BMW, it's a better car" everyone once in awhile when it does crash and you restart.... otherwise you would only get this over and over...

"Moe: But that car is $10-12k more--too much for me
Joe: No, it's only $5k--here's what I paid...
Moe: Using your numbers, it's $10k
Joe: But it's a better car."


so uhhh...

anyway here's some corrections to your code....


and ...



it was a joke. not an attack at him.... geeze... however I did make fun of MS! But who &#@*(&(#@ cares!

and im sure you would have noticed the changes I made if you had probably spent more time reading his code. I just assume you skimmed over it and decided to rant/rave at me Hope you relieved some stress and feel better. But go back and looky again .... you'll mabye see what was trying to say...

ugh...

peace,

codehead

I hear ya BNut--a reasonably fair assessment (though I didn't drive the IS300 so can't say much there). The bottom line is that I could afford the 330ci no problem. I only drive about 8k miles a year though, mostly local streets, so spending that much didn't make much sense to me unless unless the object was to impress someone. The CL gave me what I wanted at a good value--at least once they came out with a manual tranny.

FWIW, I thought the limited slip differential of the 6MT did help to bridge at least some of the gap between FWD and RWD--a noticeable improvement. I've owned both, and know the appeal of RWD. I don't miss RWD much mainly because I'm rarely in a situation where I can have fun with it, but for those who need it I understand, just like I need a stick.

BNut

I guess in all fairness I should test drive an S2000 since it is RWD, but I just don't see it as being a "practical" daily driver. :\

LuxSport

What about this coupe



So Sexy