3.5L upgrade - just spoke with Doug!
08-06-2001, 04:34 PM
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3.5L upgrade - just spoke with Doug!
Ok, here are the facts.
1) $4800
2) 60 hp at crank, 47 to wheels
3) 35 max torque gain at 6500 and 25 torque across the board
4) Takes 4 days to complete
5) Rick Case Acura is the only dealer who does this...they warranty it and will pay any acura dealer to address issues (if they ever arise)
6) This price and gains are to a BONE STOCK CLS
7) The package includes Comptech headers and a CAI.
8) If you already have CAI, deduct $250 from price
9) If you have headers, deduct $1000 more from price
10) The kit includes port and polishing the heads, tuning the intake runners and some other shit I don't remember.
11) Sad news and I wonder if anyone can confirm this, Doug does not think the Supercharger will be made for automatics as they turbo's 4 cars and blew the tranny on eah... food for thought and reaction. I'd love to hear from some of ya'll on that issue!
PEACE
1) $4800
2) 60 hp at crank, 47 to wheels
3) 35 max torque gain at 6500 and 25 torque across the board
4) Takes 4 days to complete
5) Rick Case Acura is the only dealer who does this...they warranty it and will pay any acura dealer to address issues (if they ever arise)
6) This price and gains are to a BONE STOCK CLS
7) The package includes Comptech headers and a CAI.
8) If you already have CAI, deduct $250 from price
9) If you have headers, deduct $1000 more from price
10) The kit includes port and polishing the heads, tuning the intake runners and some other shit I don't remember.
11) Sad news and I wonder if anyone can confirm this, Doug does not think the Supercharger will be made for automatics as they turbo's 4 cars and blew the tranny on eah... food for thought and reaction. I'd love to hear from some of ya'll on that issue!
PEACE
08-06-2001, 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by BusGradCLS:
<STRONG>Ok, here are the facts.
1) $4800
2) 60 hp at crank, 47 to wheels
3) 35 max torque gain at 6500 and 25 torque across the board
4) Takes 4 days to complete
5) Rick Case Acura is the only dealer who does this...they warranty it and will pay any acura dealer to address issues (if they ever arise)
6) This price and gains are to a BONE STOCK CLS
7) The package includes Comptech headers and a CAI.
8) If you already have CAI, deduct $250 from price
9) If you have headers, deduct $1000 more from price
10) The kit includes port and polishing the heads, tuning the intake runners and some other shit I don't remember.
11) Sad news and I wonder if anyone can confirm this, Doug does not think the Supercharger will be made for automatics as they turbo's 4 cars and blew the tranny on eah... food for thought and reaction. I'd love to hear from some of ya'll on that issue!
PEACE</STRONG>
<STRONG>Ok, here are the facts.
1) $4800
2) 60 hp at crank, 47 to wheels
3) 35 max torque gain at 6500 and 25 torque across the board
4) Takes 4 days to complete
5) Rick Case Acura is the only dealer who does this...they warranty it and will pay any acura dealer to address issues (if they ever arise)
6) This price and gains are to a BONE STOCK CLS
7) The package includes Comptech headers and a CAI.
8) If you already have CAI, deduct $250 from price
9) If you have headers, deduct $1000 more from price
10) The kit includes port and polishing the heads, tuning the intake runners and some other shit I don't remember.
11) Sad news and I wonder if anyone can confirm this, Doug does not think the Supercharger will be made for automatics as they turbo's 4 cars and blew the tranny on eah... food for thought and reaction. I'd love to hear from some of ya'll on that issue!
PEACE</STRONG>
Aren't the headers 30hp to the wheels? If so, then the CAI is probably around 5hp to the wheels which comes out to 35hp. Take the
47hp and subtract the 35 and you get 12hp.
Take the $4800 and subtract the headers+CAI ($1200) equals out to be $3600. $3600 for 12hp to the wheels?!?!?!?
My opinion is taking the headers to be 30hp to the wheels. I'm not sure if thats right or not. But even so, if the headers put 20hp to the wheels, then your paying $3600 for 22hp????? Wow! Get NOS instead for $700!! Instant 50hp!
08-06-2001, 04:49 PM
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I agree with you Damaged, I am not buying the damn thing!! I merely wanted to provide all the information as I found it to be factual and recent. I was very disappointed to hear that headers were an element there. Shit, I could put together a 70 hp package and market it for 5 large, any of us could hahaha Just add up the little things Headers, CAI, exhaust, cam gears, pulleys, denso's yada yada I am sure you can find a shop to polish and port and do the intake runners for umm under 3 grand for under 1500 most likely! 
08-06-2001, 04:49 PM
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In this case the amount of power gained isn't important, its WHERE the power is gained that matters.
Peak gains don't mean shit either... the total area under the HP curve is what counts, and I promise you, that the increase in displacement is going to give you a whole lot more area than a cai and headers will.
Some people here don't seem to understand that you can modify your engine such that the PEAK HP DECREASES but yet you could still run a 1/4 mile time that is a second faster.
Peak gains don't mean shit either... the total area under the HP curve is what counts, and I promise you, that the increase in displacement is going to give you a whole lot more area than a cai and headers will.
Some people here don't seem to understand that you can modify your engine such that the PEAK HP DECREASES but yet you could still run a 1/4 mile time that is a second faster.
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08-06-2001, 04:59 PM
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How much for a "3.5" badge from an RL after this mod is made?
Originally posted by BusGradCLS:
<STRONG>Ok, here are the facts.
1) $4800
2) 60 hp at crank, 47 to wheels
3) 35 max torque gain at 6500 and 25 torque across the board
4) Takes 4 days to complete
5) Rick Case Acura is the only dealer who does this...they warranty it and will pay any acura dealer to address issues (if they ever arise)
6) This price and gains are to a BONE STOCK CLS
7) The package includes Comptech headers and a CAI.
8) If you already have CAI, deduct $250 from price
9) If you have headers, deduct $1000 more from price
10) The kit includes port and polishing the heads, tuning the intake runners and some other shit I don't remember.
11) Sad news and I wonder if anyone can confirm this, Doug does not think the Supercharger will be made for automatics as they turbo's 4 cars and blew the tranny on eah... food for thought and reaction. I'd love to hear from some of ya'll on that issue!
PEACE</STRONG>
<STRONG>Ok, here are the facts.
1) $4800
2) 60 hp at crank, 47 to wheels
3) 35 max torque gain at 6500 and 25 torque across the board
4) Takes 4 days to complete
5) Rick Case Acura is the only dealer who does this...they warranty it and will pay any acura dealer to address issues (if they ever arise)
6) This price and gains are to a BONE STOCK CLS
7) The package includes Comptech headers and a CAI.
8) If you already have CAI, deduct $250 from price
9) If you have headers, deduct $1000 more from price
10) The kit includes port and polishing the heads, tuning the intake runners and some other shit I don't remember.
11) Sad news and I wonder if anyone can confirm this, Doug does not think the Supercharger will be made for automatics as they turbo's 4 cars and blew the tranny on eah... food for thought and reaction. I'd love to hear from some of ya'll on that issue!
PEACE</STRONG>
08-06-2001, 05:16 PM
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Actually Rick Case is acting like a monopoly just like Comptech. But hey thats business and I would do the same. I say you get the list of parts you need to do this from SSMAN, buy them from the Acura dealer or somewhere online. You could even get them from crashed Acuras at a junkyard or off partstrader. Take them to your local performance shop and see how much it would be to get them installed.\\Damaged I dont think it was 30HP to the wheels.
08-06-2001, 05:16 PM
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Actually Rick Case is acting like a monopoly just like Comptech. But hey thats business and I would do the same. I say you get the list of parts you need to do this from SSMAN, buy them from the Acura dealer or somewhere online. You could even get them from crashed Acuras at a junkyard or off partstrader. Take them to your local performance shop and see how much it would be to get them installed.\\Damaged I dont think it was 30HP to the wheels.
08-06-2001, 05:19 PM
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Remember people:
There is no replacement for displacement
Also hp doesn't mean much in some cases, the torque increase is the substantial gain in this upgrade.
If you really want a challenge and a worthy payoff....someone come up with a way to get that 13.6 lb/HP to about 8-10 LB/HP, that right there would be nice or lighten our existing car about 1000 pounds, either way that is how you would get a good payoff and a good 12 second CL if not less 
Later,
Dantes
There is no replacement for displacement
Also hp doesn't mean much in some cases, the torque increase is the substantial gain in this upgrade.
If you really want a challenge and a worthy payoff....someone come up with a way to get that 13.6 lb/HP to about 8-10 LB/HP, that right there would be nice or lighten our existing car about 1000 pounds, either way that is how you would get a good payoff and a good 12 second CL
if not less Later,
Dantes
08-06-2001, 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by BNut:
<STRONG>In this case the amount of power gained isn't important, its WHERE the power is gained that matters.
Peak gains don't mean shit either... the total area under the HP curve is what counts, and I promise you, that the increase in displacement is going to give you a whole lot more area than a cai and headers will.
Some people here don't seem to understand that you can modify your engine such that the PEAK HP DECREASES but yet you could still run a 1/4 mile time that is a second faster.</STRONG>
<STRONG>In this case the amount of power gained isn't important, its WHERE the power is gained that matters.
Peak gains don't mean shit either... the total area under the HP curve is what counts, and I promise you, that the increase in displacement is going to give you a whole lot more area than a cai and headers will.
Some people here don't seem to understand that you can modify your engine such that the PEAK HP DECREASES but yet you could still run a 1/4 mile time that is a second faster.</STRONG>
THANK YOU!!!
Torque turns wheels, horsepower is a fancy-schmancy calculation to make a crappy car look better. Most of us are so tuned to think about horsepower, we forget that torque makes us go.
Food for thought...
Horsepower(@ x-rpm) = Torque (@ x-rpm) * X-RPM * 1.904 e-4 <-- the last part is a conversion factor
If you build a free-breathing engine (fairly easy to do), and manufacture it properly (a little tougher, but not too hard with today's manufacturing techniques) so that it is fairly balanced and able to hold together @ high RPM's, you can achieve crazy high hp/litre ratios. But if you look (take the s2000 as an example), torque numbers suck. If you don't have any torque, it just doesn't matter how much horsepower you have. Torque is the FORCE that twists wheels. Acceleration, which we all love, is equal to force/mass. No torque = no force = no acceleration.
That extra 25 ft*lb of torque across the board is a very interesting proposition. Would definately be a help with our tall gearing.
There is no replacement for displacement.
08-06-2001, 05:36 PM
#18
Happy CL-S Pilot
It was disscussed before here. http://www.acura-cl.com/cgi-bin/ulti...c&f=1&t=004756
however, The dyno plot for 3.5 upgrade is gone
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Nashua_Night_Hawk ]
however, The dyno plot for 3.5 upgrade is gone
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Nashua_Night_Hawk ]
08-06-2001, 06:16 PM
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Rick Case may be the only Acura dealer performing this conversion, but anyone with mechanical experience, tools, and a parts catalog is capable.
I am frequently asked if I consider the 3.5 conversion to be worth the investment. It's a matter of personal preference, and what your performance goals are. The majority of the expense is labor, so if you are capable of doing the work yourself there is a substantial savings. If you're paying for labor and analyzing the performance gain per dollar spent, it doesn't seem like a logical modification.
I recently completed the engine for my 1964 Pontiac GTO, and I have about $6500 invested in it. For my investment I have 1100+ hp (naturally aspirated), and nearly 1700 hp with a 2-stage NOS fogger. Personally, I would rather run 7-second ET's for $6500 than 13's for $4800
I am frequently asked if I consider the 3.5 conversion to be worth the investment. It's a matter of personal preference, and what your performance goals are. The majority of the expense is labor, so if you are capable of doing the work yourself there is a substantial savings. If you're paying for labor and analyzing the performance gain per dollar spent, it doesn't seem like a logical modification.
I recently completed the engine for my 1964 Pontiac GTO, and I have about $6500 invested in it. For my investment I have 1100+ hp (naturally aspirated), and nearly 1700 hp with a 2-stage NOS fogger. Personally, I would rather run 7-second ET's for $6500 than 13's for $4800
08-06-2001, 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by SSMAN:
<STRONG>Rick Case may be the only Acura dealer performing this conversion, but anyone with mechanical experience, tools, and a parts catalog is capable.
I am frequently asked if I consider the 3.5 conversion to be worth the investment. It's a matter of personal preference, and what your performance goals are. The majority of the expense is labor, so if you are capable of doing the work yourself there is a substantial savings. If you're paying for labor and analyzing the performance gain per dollar spent, it doesn't seem like a logical modification.
I recently completed the engine for my 1964 Pontiac GTO, and I have about $6500 invested in it. For my investment I have 1100+ hp (naturally aspirated), and nearly 1700 hp with a 2-stage NOS fogger. Personally, I would rather run 7-second ET's for $6500 than 13's for $4800</STRONG>
<STRONG>Rick Case may be the only Acura dealer performing this conversion, but anyone with mechanical experience, tools, and a parts catalog is capable.
I am frequently asked if I consider the 3.5 conversion to be worth the investment. It's a matter of personal preference, and what your performance goals are. The majority of the expense is labor, so if you are capable of doing the work yourself there is a substantial savings. If you're paying for labor and analyzing the performance gain per dollar spent, it doesn't seem like a logical modification.
I recently completed the engine for my 1964 Pontiac GTO, and I have about $6500 invested in it. For my investment I have 1100+ hp (naturally aspirated), and nearly 1700 hp with a 2-stage NOS fogger. Personally, I would rather run 7-second ET's for $6500 than 13's for $4800
</STRONG>
600 SHOT DO U HAVE A PIC? THIS MAY BE STUPID BUT COULD U OR HAVE YOU TAKEN IT OUT ON THE STREET?
08-06-2001, 06:37 PM
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It also looks like if you do the work yourself...you void your warranty. If you let Acura do it you pay more...but you have a warranty which in my thinking is worth a lot. Especially for 4 yrs 50K miles! If you do it yourself and something craps out in the engine...Acura will say NO WAY to fixing it under warranty!
08-06-2001, 06:56 PM
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KCPreki11 - The NOS is a 500 hp 2-stage (300hp 1st, 200hp 2nd). The engine produced 1163hp on it's own, and 1677 with the chemical assistance 
Once the car is finished it will see some street use, purely for fun and car shows. It's a work in progress, but I do have some pictures. I'll dig some out and post them.
BusGradCLS - The chassis will have no flex. I'm currently building a 14-point cage from chrome moly steel, and the full perimeter frame has been completely reinforced.
NOLACLS - Rick Case is responsible for the warranty coverage, not Acura. I can complete the conversion myself for less than $1500. If a part fails due to material defect, it's under the Acura parts warranty (12/12). I can build the engine 3 times for the price of having it done once at Rick Case.
Once the car is finished it will see some street use, purely for fun and car shows. It's a work in progress, but I do have some pictures. I'll dig some out and post them.BusGradCLS - The chassis will have no flex. I'm currently building a 14-point cage from chrome moly steel, and the full perimeter frame has been completely reinforced.
NOLACLS - Rick Case is responsible for the warranty coverage, not Acura. I can complete the conversion myself for less than $1500. If a part fails due to material defect, it's under the Acura parts warranty (12/12). I can build the engine 3 times for the price of having it done once at Rick Case.
08-06-2001, 07:07 PM
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But it was said that rick case acura will pay for any other dealership if an issue arrises. Still dont know if i would do it. I would have to see aome more people do it and hear there thoughts! Thanks
08-06-2001, 08:39 PM
#25
Senior Moderator
i would do it in hart beat if i had the money...it's alot more than the mdx engine the torque is the big deal here ...if you could come up with some rubber to grab 5.5 maybe even 5.3 0-60 is achievable with this set up and i think 13.5 yet to be proven
08-06-2001, 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by 4pumpedCL:
<STRONG>Will they pay for transmission failure as well?</STRONG>
<STRONG>Will they pay for transmission failure as well?</STRONG>
08-06-2001, 10:17 PM
#29
Oh...Behave!
...A couple of points:
1) 60HP @ fly and 47HP @ wheels
The MATH doesn't work, as we have about a 24% parasitic loss with our cars! ...That's only a 12% LOSS!!! ...Do the math!
2) If you already have CIA and headers, the price is $3,550 for a "Port and Polish" of the heads and intake plenum!
WAAAYYY too much $$$$ for that!
3)There has to be a bore job (+.30 over?), new pistons, new rods, etc... in order to get the displacement to a 3.5, right?
$3,550 for 16 more HP and 25-35 more ft/lbs. of torque is a ripe off!!!
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
1) 60HP @ fly and 47HP @ wheels
The MATH doesn't work, as we have about a 24% parasitic loss with our cars! ...That's only a 12% LOSS!!! ...Do the math!
2) If you already have CIA and headers, the price is $3,550 for a "Port and Polish" of the heads and intake plenum!
WAAAYYY too much $$$$ for that!
3)There has to be a bore job (+.30 over?), new pistons, new rods, etc... in order to get the displacement to a 3.5, right?
$3,550 for 16 more HP and 25-35 more ft/lbs. of torque is a ripe off!!!
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
08-06-2001, 11:24 PM
#30
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>...A couple of points:
1) 60HP @ fly and 47HP @ wheels
The MATH doesn't work, as we have about a 24% parasitic loss with our cars! ...That's only a 12% LOSS!!! ...Do the math!
2) If you already have CIA and headers, the price is $3,550 for a "Port and Polish" of the heads and intake plenum!
WAAAYYY too much $$$$ for that!
3)There has to be a bore job (+.30 over?), new pistons, new rods, etc... in order to get the displacement to a 3.5, right?
$3,550 for 16 more HP and 25-35 more ft/lbs. of torque is a ripe off!!!
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
<STRONG>...A couple of points:
1) 60HP @ fly and 47HP @ wheels
The MATH doesn't work, as we have about a 24% parasitic loss with our cars! ...That's only a 12% LOSS!!! ...Do the math!
2) If you already have CIA and headers, the price is $3,550 for a "Port and Polish" of the heads and intake plenum!
WAAAYYY too much $$$$ for that!
3)There has to be a bore job (+.30 over?), new pistons, new rods, etc... in order to get the displacement to a 3.5, right?
$3,550 for 16 more HP and 25-35 more ft/lbs. of torque is a ripe off!!!
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: typeR ]
08-06-2001, 11:36 PM
#31
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My opinion is taking the headers to be 30hp to the wheels. I'm not sure if thats right or not. But even so, if the headers put 20hp to the wheels, then your paying $3600 for 22hp????? Wow! Get NOS instead for $700!! Instant 50hp!
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: SFLA_Type-S ]
08-07-2001, 02:23 AM
#32
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>...A couple of points:
1) 60HP @ fly and 47HP @ wheels
The MATH doesn't work, as we have about a 24% parasitic loss with our cars! ...That's only a 12% LOSS!!! ...Do the math!
2) If you already have CIA and headers, the price is $3,550 for a "Port and Polish" of the heads and intake plenum!
WAAAYYY too much $$$$ for that!
3) There has to be a bore job (+.30 over?), new pistons, new rods, etc... in order to get the displacement to a 3.5, right?
$3,550 for 16 more HP and 25-35 more ft/lbs. of torque is a ripe off!!!
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
<STRONG>...A couple of points:
1) 60HP @ fly and 47HP @ wheels
The MATH doesn't work, as we have about a 24% parasitic loss with our cars! ...That's only a 12% LOSS!!! ...Do the math!
2) If you already have CIA and headers, the price is $3,550 for a "Port and Polish" of the heads and intake plenum!
WAAAYYY too much $$$$ for that!
3) There has to be a bore job (+.30 over?), new pistons, new rods, etc... in order to get the displacement to a 3.5, right?
$3,550 for 16 more HP and 25-35 more ft/lbs. of torque is a ripe off!!!
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
The bore will get you a little, but the bottom end swap or syncivic job is basically a stroke job -- not a bore out.
The area under the curve is the way to go, provided you aren't running a CVT tranny and when figuring areas, you need to only calc the area between appropriate shift points (low and high rpm bracketing)...
As a note, I would rather have an extra 30 HP from 3000 to 6900 RPM, than 40 HP from 5000 to 7000 RPM
08-07-2001, 03:29 AM
#33
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Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>...A couple of points:
1) 60HP @ fly and 47HP @ wheels
The MATH doesn't work, as we have about a 24% parasitic loss with our cars! ...That's only a 12% LOSS!!! ...Do the math!
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
<STRONG>...A couple of points:
1) 60HP @ fly and 47HP @ wheels
The MATH doesn't work, as we have about a 24% parasitic loss with our cars! ...That's only a 12% LOSS!!! ...Do the math!
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
08-07-2001, 05:28 AM
#35
Oh...Behave!
Originally posted by typeR:
<STRONG>i beat your car by 5 cars 1/4 mile you have I/H/E...who got ripped off? and no not bore, stroke!where've you been??
</STRONG>
<STRONG>i beat your car by 5 cars 1/4 mile you have I/H/E...who got ripped off? and no not bore, stroke!where've you been??
</STRONG>
WE'VE NEVER RACED!!!
[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
08-07-2001, 11:33 AM
#36
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Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>
You've NEVER beat my car!!!
WE'VE NEVER RACED!!!
[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
<STRONG>
You've NEVER beat my car!!!
WE'VE NEVER RACED!!!
[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
08-07-2001, 03:18 PM
#37
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i had the 3.5 litre upgrade done and its worth it you might think its not cuz of the hp numbers but trust me the torque from that that car was insane okay ill put it to you this way i raced a stock cl-s tl-s and beat it by 5 car lenghts to 90-100 mph i then races one with headers and intake and i beat it by 3 to 4 cars...............its worth it if you have the flow...........when i would race everyone thought i had nos. and the cars underwarranty if the tranny goes they will cover it.........the package also includes the mdx crankshaft, rods, port and polished intake manifold, dommed topped pistons
08-07-2001, 03:23 PM
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mchtypes: THANK YOU for the information !! please share more when u have time what type of CAI did they give u ? what did u pay i think u can shed a lot of light for us!
08-07-2001, 03:24 PM
#39
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Originally posted by mchtypeS:
<STRONG>i had the 3.5 litre upgrade done and its worth it you might think its not cuz of the hp numbers but trust me the torque from that that car was insane okay ill put it to you this way i raced a stock cl-s tl-s and beat it by 5 car lenghts to 90-100 mph i then races one with headers and intake and i beat it by 3 to 4 cars...............its worth it if you have the flow...........when i would race everyone thought i had nos. and the cars underwarranty if the tranny goes they will cover it.........the package also includes the mdx crankshaft, rods, port and polished intake manifold, dommed topped pistons</STRONG>
<STRONG>i had the 3.5 litre upgrade done and its worth it you might think its not cuz of the hp numbers but trust me the torque from that that car was insane okay ill put it to you this way i raced a stock cl-s tl-s and beat it by 5 car lenghts to 90-100 mph i then races one with headers and intake and i beat it by 3 to 4 cars...............its worth it if you have the flow...........when i would race everyone thought i had nos. and the cars underwarranty if the tranny goes they will cover it.........the package also includes the mdx crankshaft, rods, port and polished intake manifold, dommed topped pistons</STRONG>
We don't want real life examples that dispute/disprove are numbers for hp/torque.
You just raced some crappy drivers, that's all.