3.5 CL- S Conversion

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Old Feb 3, 2004 | 12:09 AM
  #121  
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From: Diamond Bar
Originally posted by EricL
Is there a way to just ask Comptech, "Hey, how would the S/C work on my car if added an MDX bottom end (later)?" "Would I need to consider any changes or issues?"

The other steps you have mentioned seem reasonable places to go from here. (open IMRC, lower boost).

Wish I had magic bullet, but...
I installed the original pulley. Took it out for a spin around the block. I did not hear any pinging but I also didn't think my boost gauge went above 3psi. I couldn't drive it hard because it is rainning. My car didn't feel any faster but I will have to drive it again tomorrow.
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Old Feb 4, 2004 | 01:30 PM
  #122  
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Originally posted by sgmotoring
How did you come out with 11.26 to 1 compression ratio? What kind of assumption did you have to make in your calculation?. I thought my engine have no more than 10.2 to 1 compression ratio.
The calcs are earlier in the thread and based on the pistons being used having the same basic "dome" as the CLS pistons (IOW, the volume of the heads staying the same, the stoke changing [swept volume changed as one would expect and this is an easy calc]).


What pistons did you use (MDX, other)?

Did anyone change the combustion chamber volume?


Did you compare the pistons in the 3.5L to the 3.2L (This is in reference to YOUR pistons in YOUR 3.5L block).




Part of the comments refer to questions asked about Syncivic’s 3.5L mods, and other issues (compression) just refer to compression ratio issues.

I posted this earlier, and here is the "paste from the earlier post". BTW, I didn't count on the fate of the planet depending on every detail and assumption being "dead-on", but here it is:

"1. I believe the crank gets some chamfering to make for "better lubing" (as to SERIOUS work -- I don't think so).

2. The compression ratio is based on:

CV (cylinder volume) # the volume that is SWEPT by the top of the piston
CCV (combustion chamber volume) # the area above the piston at TDC (AKA unswept volume)

CR (compression ratio) = (CV + CCV) / CCV

3. The "slugs"/"pistons" are changed from the MDX to different pistons that allow for less compression (than with the MDX slugs) (Note: I can’t know for sure, since I haven’t seen the pistons, but I’ve included some math that will predict combustion chamber volume and compression ratio and the change in them (based on the pistons and wrist pins being identical). I’m making a guess, but based on the increase in compression with a 7mm increase in stroke, the compression would increase from 10:5 to 11.26.

4. IF the MDX pistons (at top dead center) LEFT the combustion chamber volume (as it was with a stock CL Type S), the compression would be increased due to the increase in stroke. The "swept" area is increased with the shorter rod (in the MDX) and longer stroke of the crank. If both sets of pistons were flat top pistons or the Type-S pistons were reused (if that was even possible) the change in compression ratio would be from 10:5 : 1 to 11.26 : 1.

Ok, first some specs:

< --------------------------- >
CL Type S
CL
Bore and Stroke: 3.50 in. x 3.39 in. (89 mm x 86 mm)

Type S compression ratio: 10.5: 1
CL compression ratio: 9.8: 1

Total displacement (just for checking purposes): 3210 CC 3.21 liters

< ------------------------- >
MDX
Bore and Stoke: 89 mm x 93 mm (That is a stroke that is 93-86 = 7mm longer in the 3.5L engine (MDX factory short block)
Total displacement (just for checking purposes): 3471 CC 3.471 liters
MDX compression ratio: 10:0: 1


Derived figures (see math below for equations to get the values):

MDX combustion chamber volume (CCV) = 64.22 CC (based on 10:1 compression ratio.



So, how about some math?


First, figure the “swept” volume (not including the combustion chamber volume:

(We just need the area of the bore x the length that the area is swept)

Pi r^2 = Area = Pi * (8.9cm/2)^2 = 62.21 cm

Volume = Area * stroke = 62.21cm^2 * 8.6cm = 535 cc (cm^3)

Now just to check, we take the 3210 CC that Acura gives for total displacement and divide by 6: 3210 / 6 = 535 cm^3 = 535 cc for each of the 6 cylinders in the V6.

Time for the combustion chamber volume (CCV): [ CV = chamber volume, and CR = compression ratio ]

CR = (CV + CCV) / CCV and CCV = CV/(CR – 1) [CR = 10.5, CV = 535cc (for stock 3.2L CS)]

CV = 535cc / 9.5 = 56.32cc (So, the combustion chamber volume is now found for a stock CLS

Now, let’s assume that the combustion chamber’s volume stayed the same with the MDX slugs (the volume removed or added at the top of the piston would have to subtract or add the same volume as the original CLS slugs did). (A flat top piston for both would make this a no-brainer).

The volume is now going to be greater with the stroke increased from 86mm to 93mm (+7mm).

Volume = 62.21 cm^2 * 9.3 cm = 578 cc. (This is the swept volume in an MDX or 3.5 type s)

Just to check 578cc * 6 = 3.468 liters (and is close enough to the 3.471 liter spec given in the Acura MDX website blurb)


Ok, I’ll assume that a miracle occurs and the MDX piston is designed to keep the combustion chamber volume exactly the same; this would allow for an increase in CR.

CR = (CV + CCV) / CCV = (578 + 56.32)/56.32 = 11.26 : 1 (With MDX pistons with same volume removed or subtracted from combustion chamber or if assuming both pistons are flat topped (they aren’t).

AND, let’s check the math so far with the values I’ve obtained for a 3.2L CLS (no mods)

CR = (535 + 56.32)/56.32 = 10.5 : 1

If both sets of pistons were “perfectly” flat (flat top pistons), this would be done and one could assume that the stock block would give an increase in compression ratio from 10.5 : 1 to 11.26 : 1. (That’s assuming a bit, but it would be easy to see that it would be possible to have a compression ratio that is a bit to high for 91-octane and would probably move the requirement up to 93-octane. There’s probably a 2-percent gain there (5HP or so as well).

The pistons in $2500 conversion kit claims to have a compression of 10.85 :1. The combustion chamber volume would need to be reduced from a 3.2L engine (metal would need to be removed from the “slugs” when compared to the OEM 3.2L Type-S pistons (sitting at TDC). The change in volume to get the 10.85 would be CCV = CV / (CR-1). Solving for CCV we get: 578 / 10.85 – 1 = 58.68. The “new” pistons would have to “account” for a 58.68 – 56.32 = 2.36 cc increase in chamber volume (if the Type-s were flat top pistons, the pistons would have some small cut outs in the top.





Finally, if anyone wants to see if you can get some 0.050 oversize pistons, you can bore out the 3.2L to 3.3L and the 3.5L to 3.6+L …

As a note – with the shorter rod and longer crank, you are getting the piston speed to increase by around >10% and this causes the increase in lower and midrange torque/HP. The piston moves faster and gets the air moving quicker. The downside is the air speed at higher RPMS requires the heads to flow even more air – that’s one of the trade-offs…

The mean piston speed is also going to be greater at a given RPM. (This means there is more relative wear) Note: given the tranny situation, I wouldn’t worry about this AT ALL.)

Finally, a shorter rod doesn’t always mean more strength – it depends…


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Old Feb 5, 2004 | 12:42 AM
  #123  
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From: Diamond Bar
I installed a complete short block and the piston in the MDX block is different. The MDX piston is concave and the 3.2 CL-S piston have a slight dome. I assume that I have 10.1 because I had both heads resurface.
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Old Feb 5, 2004 | 12:51 AM
  #124  
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From: Diamond Bar
didn't even try to install the 3.2L piston in the 3.5L block. I thought with that concave piston and lower compression, I could crank up the boost :sneaky:
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Old Feb 17, 2004 | 11:21 PM
  #125  
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From: Diamond Bar
Originally posted by EricL
A possiblity...

There is just something very strange about that 6k bump and TQ rolloff.
I think I found the problem. It is a loose supercharge belt, damn those belt need to be tight. I tighten it so tight that now my S/C belt tensioner is making a squeaky noise But now I am getting my 7psi of boost . I also found the cause of my check engine light P0171 and P0170 system lean. My fuel pressure was to low, 27psi with vacuum connected and 59psi with it disconnected. I couldn't adjust the fuel pressure to specs so I borrow a FPR from my friend NSX. Plug it in and my fuel pressure raise to 46psi and 66psi. Best of all my Check engine light gone.:jump2:
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Old Feb 18, 2004 | 04:33 AM
  #126  
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Originally posted by sgmotoring
I think I found the problem. It is a loose supercharge belt, damn those belt need to be tight. I tighten it so tight that now my S/C belt tensioner is making a squeaky noise
It should not be that tight; I can get away with 20 lb/ft without it slipping. Your tensioner will fail soon so I would look into why it is requiring that level of load to keep it from slipping.
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Old Feb 18, 2004 | 04:35 AM
  #127  
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Originally posted by sgmotoring
My fuel pressure was to low, 27psi with vacuum connected and 59psi with it disconnected. I couldn't adjust the fuel pressure to specs so I borrow a FPR from my friend NSX. Plug it in and my fuel pressure raise to 46psi and 66psi.
But what is the pressure at WOT?? That base pressure without vacuum looks better but now the span is too low. You would like about 35 PSI with 20 inHg vacuum and 65 without vacuum.

I had a problem with my FPR which was swapped out and the car ran much better from then on as evidenced by my recent dyno.
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Old Feb 19, 2004 | 02:40 AM
  #128  
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From: Diamond Bar
Originally posted by scalbert
But what is the pressure at WOT?? That base pressure without vacuum looks better but now the span is too low. You would like about 35 PSI with 20 inHg vacuum and 65 without vacuum.

I had a problem with my FPR which was swapped out and the car ran much better from then on as evidenced by my recent dyno.
I think it is at about 75-80psi at WOT. I had a fuel pressure gauge hook up with factory adaptor. The fuel hose was not long enough so I had to read the pressure with it hanging on the drivers side wiper arm. . With higher fuel pressure I notice my car is harder to start. I tried to adjust the FPR but this one didn't work either.. I didn't want to fiddle with this FPR too much because it is going back in the NSX as soon as I get mine from Comptech. I am currently on a wired warranty exchange program with Comptech. I have to pay for the FPR and tensioner pulley in advance. They will then issue a credit when they recieve my old FPR and tensioner. I guess Comptech feel that there are just to many crooks out there.
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Old Feb 19, 2004 | 06:48 AM
  #129  
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Originally posted by sgmotoring
I think it is at about 75-80psi at WOT.

I am currently on a wired warranty exchange program with Comptech. I have to pay for the FPR and tensioner pulley in advance. They will then issue a credit when they recieve my old FPR and tensioner. I guess Comptech feel that there are just to many crooks out there.
That is too low at WOT; it should be up above 100 PSI at 5 PSI boost.

Comptech's policy isn't unusual, they are just covering themselves for when someone doesn't send back the parts.
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Old Feb 19, 2004 | 10:27 PM
  #130  
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From: Diamond Bar
Over 100psi! Is your over 100 psi at WOT? Do you know what is Comptech recommend fuel pressure at WOT? Can you adjust the fuel pressure, so that it will run over 100 psi? Damn my autometer electric fuel pressure gauge only read to 100psi but I still need to find those fuel fitting you showed me.. Where did you find yours? Home Depot?
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Old Feb 20, 2004 | 06:26 AM
  #131  
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This is supposed to be a 12:1 regulator. With a base pressure of about 60 PSI without vacuum and even 3 PSI boost, you should see about 96 PSI fuel pressure. With 6 PSI boost the theoretical fuel pressure should be 132 PSI.

However, there are normally pressure bypass valves in the pumps which open at a certain pressure to help keep pump damage to a minimum at higher pressures. This will allow for some serious pressure at lower flow rates but limits high flow rate potential. Most likely this pump opens at about 85 PSI which would help to explain why we see some pressure drop at the higher revs.

But regardless, you should be seeing much higher pressures. Comptech did not spec WOT pressures; we have, myself, Brad, Smitty and Eric have all tested and correlated similar numbers.

The pressure adjustment isn't too great; there is a limited range. If your base pressure without vacuum is in the 60 - 65 PSI range and the regulator is functioning correctly, you should be fine. But it sounds like your regulator is not working properly.

I made my own fuel line from the dampener to the regulator and added a brass Tee for my fuel pressure sensor. But you can buy pre-made AN or hose adapters
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Old Feb 20, 2004 | 08:13 AM
  #132  
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i only made it to page 3 of this thread and saw someone was concerned with detonation. I used to have a J&S Safeguard system on my old Type R/civic swap and it was awesome. I could run slightly advanced timing when i was going to the track. If you are really worried about pinging check them out. The J&S listens for which cyclinder is pinging and will only retard the timing on that cylinder.
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/safeguard.html
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Old Feb 20, 2004 | 08:35 AM
  #133  
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sgmotoring,

One word for you... YOUR RIDE Engine is messed up!... It needs major tune-up!... Go get your CLS to the hands of Comptech Tech to get it tuned!.

Scalbert is running close to 320 WHP!

Nashua
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Old Feb 20, 2004 | 10:16 AM
  #134  
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Originally posted by Nashua_Night_Hawk
Scalbert is running close to 320 WHP!
Close, but actually a hair over.
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Old Feb 21, 2004 | 02:02 AM
  #135  
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From: Diamond Bar
Originally posted by Nashua_Night_Hawk
sgmotoring,

One word for you... YOUR RIDE Engine is messed up!... It needs major tune-up!... Go get your CLS to the hands of Comptech Tech to get it tuned!.

Scalbert is running close to 320 WHP!

Nashua
Comptech is about 400 miles away and I don't know what they will say about my 3.5L engine. I would first like to swap out my FPR and then go from there. I also think that my fuel pump is going out, fuel pressure drain down to zero when I turn my car off. Humm...it also could be the FPR.
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Old Feb 21, 2004 | 08:23 PM
  #136  
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From: Diamond Bar
Originally posted by scalbert
That is too low at WOT; it should be up above 100 PSI at 5 PSI boost.

Comptech's policy isn't unusual, they are just covering themselves for when someone doesn't send back the parts.

I had some spare time today and so I reinstalled my old FPR. Yep it still read 27 psi at idle with vacuum line connected and 59 psi disconnected. I thought I will play with it since I am going to get a replacement. I start to turn the Allen screw in (clockwise) while I was monitoring the fuel pressure. The first complete turn and nothing happen, after the second complete turn I saw an increase in fuel pressure of about 3 psi. I had to turn the Allen screw 3 1/4 turns to raise the fuel pressure 7 psi from original setting. Now my fuel pressure is at 35 psi with vacuum hose connected and 68 with it disconnected. WOT is at about 85-95 psi. :o Does this mean that my FPR is working? I didn't try to turn the Allen screw more than 1 complete turn because I thought Comptech said we should not try to adjust the FPR. Somehow that statement in my mind translate to very precise and sensitive. Never even thought of turning it more than one half turn. Well, I still need to drive it a few days just to make sure it's fixed.
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Old Feb 22, 2004 | 04:49 AM
  #137  
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From: Diamond Bar
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...e/f98d3810.jpg


testing a pic of my car
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Old Feb 25, 2004 | 12:50 AM
  #138  
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From: Diamond Bar
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...e/f98d3810.jpg

testing pic of my car
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Old Feb 25, 2004 | 03:39 AM
  #139  
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Old Feb 25, 2004 | 11:00 AM
  #140  
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how much whp are u puttin down w/ the blower and 3.5??

that must have some mean trq steer
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Old Feb 25, 2004 | 11:41 AM
  #141  
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Man, I'm enjoying this thread. I've been away from the board for a while because of a new job and a new wife, but I'm starting to get the mod itch again. I was wondering when someone would do the 3.5 + s/c.
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Old Feb 25, 2004 | 07:47 PM
  #142  
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From: Diamond Bar
Thanks Mattg for posting my pic. Darrinb, I am still waiting for my new FPR and tensioner pulley. Comptech have not contact me? It have been a week since I talk to them. With my friend NSX FPR, my car is running good Boost is high and most important no pinging:bigclap: Under full trottle my VSA light will flash when it downshift into second. In first gear with VSA off my car will spin those Yoko's to redline. It will even break lose those tires on a 25mph rolling start. I can no longer launch my car without VSA but I got some Hoosier R3S03 road race tires in 245/35/18. I got to break 13's on the 1/4 mile track this time around.
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Old Feb 26, 2004 | 12:12 AM
  #143  
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i'd get some toyo t1-s for ya on some light weight wheels..


get a hold of some 100 octane in cali and run the hbp,

u still have a lot left, tune it w/ the e-man and the new intercooler youd be on the back bumper of a c6 down the 1320
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Old Feb 27, 2004 | 01:43 AM
  #144  
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From: Diamond Bar
Originally posted by darrinb
i'd get some toyo t1-s for ya on some light weight wheels..


get a hold of some 100 octane in cali and run the hbp,

u still have a lot left, tune it w/ the e-man and the new intercooler youd be on the back bumper of a c6 down the 1320
E-management or similar electronic will be next. I am looking for someone that know how to fine tune that e-management or can show me how in S.Cal. Anyone know if e-management come with complete tuning instruction? Scalbert intercooler is awsome but it is too pricey for my blood.
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Old Feb 27, 2004 | 06:54 PM
  #145  
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U can just contact scalbert for the tuning of the e-manage. His is allready done I believe and he can just tell u how to map the thing. I swear he's sponered by Greddy sometimes, he knows more about that e-manage than anyone. Scalberts like the father in My Big Fat Greek Wedding w/ the windex. You could be like...uhh my car rattles over bumps...e-manage. I'm gettin bad gas mileage....e-manage. My dome light doesn't work...e-manage. He's cool though and spent a whole shit load of time on it and helped out Modaddict like crazy so he should help u out a ton. Ohh and damn dude...I didn't even know u had the 03 headlights too. Shit it's like u live in my head man. I wanted to be the first PDG w/ the 03 headlights. Do u have the tails too, cause if not I got ya beat there
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Old Feb 27, 2004 | 07:09 PM
  #146  
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Originally posted by Ant7701
U can just contact scalbert for the tuning of the e-manage. His is allready done I believe and he can just tell u how to map the thing. I swear he's sponered by Greddy sometimes, he knows more about that e-manage than anyone. Scalberts like the father in My Big Fat Greek Wedding w/ the windex. You could be like...uhh my car rattles over bumps...e-manage. I'm gettin bad gas mileage....e-manage. My dome light doesn't work...e-manage. He's cool though and spent a whole shit load of time on it and helped out Modaddict like crazy so he should help u out a ton. Ohh and damn dude...I didn't even know u had the 03 headlights too. Shit it's like u live in my head man. I wanted to be the first PDG w/ the 03 headlights. Do u have the tails too, cause if not I got ya beat there
Definitely fly him out first class for some e-management!
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Old Feb 28, 2004 | 11:57 PM
  #147  
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hmmm.... maybe I can buy it from him, pay him to program it before shipping it to me? I wonder if that will work? Ant7701 No I don't have 03 tail lights because I dont like 2 tone color. (damn I am going to get chew up by 03 CL owner for that) But I have 03 silver trim interior panel and etc!. Don't like those silver trim much but love those matching "smooth" sport leather trim on them.
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Old Feb 29, 2004 | 09:28 PM
  #148  
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Son-of-a...
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Old Mar 1, 2004 | 12:17 AM
  #149  
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what does scalberts intercooler cost??
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Old Mar 1, 2004 | 12:43 AM
  #150  
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From: Diamond Bar
Scalbert said his intercooler is over $2K:crying:
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Old Mar 1, 2004 | 07:03 AM
  #151  
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Originally posted by sgmotoring
maybe I can buy it from him, pay him to program it before shipping it to me? I wonder if that will work?
I don't sell them nor want to.

But they are available and easy to work with.
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Old Mar 1, 2004 | 07:07 AM
  #152  
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Originally posted by Ant7701
I swear he's sponered by Greddy sometimes, he knows more about that e-manage than anyone. Scalberts like the father in My Big Fat Greek Wedding w/ the windex. You could be like...uhh my car rattles over bumps...e-manage. I'm gettin bad gas mileage....e-manage. My dome light doesn't work...e-manage.
First off, I would never suggest the e-Manage to help with the rattles. But it does work great for the dome light; you can use one of the outputs to strobe it as desired.

It would be nice to have Greddy's spnsorship, I could probably have gotten a great deal on the e-Manage instead of spending nearly $500. Oh yea, that exhaust would also be nice.
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Old Mar 1, 2004 | 07:10 AM
  #153  
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Originally posted by darrinb
what does scalberts intercooler cost??
Unknown at this point but if the price ends up being comparable to what I have in it, $2000+ is not out of the picture. But I would like to keep it under that amount.

I'm also going to check with another source for the core as the current $700 price seems a bit too high.
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Old Mar 1, 2004 | 08:29 PM
  #154  
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Originally posted by scalbert
I don't sell them nor want to.

But they are available and easy to work with.
Oh man! I was hoping you could help Does e-management come with instruction for for fine tuning? Anyone know who have the best price on e-managment with Plug & Play hardness? Thanks
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Old Mar 2, 2004 | 07:35 AM
  #155  
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The instructions are OK, but the forum is probably the best help. You can download the manual from the following link:

http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/
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Old Jul 27, 2004 | 11:10 PM
  #156  
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Hey 6spdmanual just to remind you that your dyno was not too bad!
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128799 247hp and 210 torque. Type R just dyno his 3.5L and got 255hp and 222 torque. If he does 1/4 miles in 13.7, you should be able to run high 13's or 14 flat!. I told you I couldn't feel that 3.5L shit, so believe me now?
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Old Jul 27, 2004 | 11:38 PM
  #157  
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I still can't understand why you dyno'd so low based on that thread ^
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Old Jul 28, 2004 | 06:25 AM
  #158  
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From: 3rd rock
sgmotoring-

when you did the 3.5L conversion, did you cc the 3.2L heads? if so , what was the measurement? also, did you cc the area in the 3.5L while the piston was at tdc? if so, what was that measurement? great job with the conversion and one more question, what year 3.5 did you purchase, some of the earlier years came with a cast crank and that is why there is so much difference between the 01-02/ 03-04 years, check the price of the crank alone between the years. good job and this has to be one of the most interesting topics to come along in quite some time.
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Old Jul 29, 2004 | 01:55 AM
  #159  
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Bleed Honda Blue
 
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From: Diamond Bar
Originally Posted by ThinJim
sgmotoring-

when you did the 3.5L conversion, did you cc the 3.2L heads? if so , what was the measurement? also, did you cc the area in the 3.5L while the piston was at tdc? if so, what was that measurement? great job with the conversion and one more question, what year 3.5 did you purchase, some of the earlier years came with a cast crank and that is why there is so much difference between the 01-02/ 03-04 years, check the price of the crank alone between the years. good job and this has to be one of the most interesting topics to come along in quite some time.
Nope didn't do any of that. All I know is that I have a 3.5L short block and bare head with Type S valves and cams.
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Old Jul 29, 2004 | 08:02 AM
  #160  
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From: 3rd rock
sgmotoring-

just curious as to which year 3.5 shortblock you have is. thanks
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