pgatour1

Anyone ever see those commericals for the 104 Octane Booster. Comes in Orange and Black Bottle. Does that really improve MPG. Right now the way I drive I get about 17 MPG, would I notice a difference with this stuff. And also if I do how do I go about using it. Thanks, Anthony.

EricL

"There are many other products that make deceptive and misleading claims, such as Dura Lube's GS27 scratch remover, Spiralmax, Tornado Air, and a handful of "octane boosters," such as 104+ and Nitrous Oxide Systems (NOS).

snip..snip

As for octane boosters, just reading the label in the back tells you exactly what it does, which is lower your octane requirements. Although it is worded in a way that is confusing, just read it carefully and you will see. This does the total opposite of what the consumer wants to buy it for, which is to increase the octane of the gas in your car. When you pour a bottle of these octane boosters in your car, your octane stays the same, but if your car previously required 91 premium unleaded, the "octane boosters" help to lower the requirements to 86, which theoretically gives you a 5 point increase in gas octane vs octane requirements. Does this mean your car will perform as well as putting in 96 octane gas? In fact, it may perform even worse with premium gas than it will with regular since your car is now made to run with a lower octane gas. Only their inclusion of what their product truely does keeps them from being investigated by the FTC


BTW -- 100 octane gas -- GOOD...


When I ran my 12:1 compression Bimmer the 104 bottles (tried 2 on my car and a friends) did almost nothing -- sure didn't boost the power...

pgatour1

Allright I was thinking maybe they would boost MPG and make the car run smoother. What would make the engine run smoother and what would boost MPG. Would this Octane 104 Booster improve my MPG I would still be filling with 92 Octane. What about that Slick 50 Stuff for engine performance do we need it, would it help our cars. Thanks, Anthony.

tankmonkey

I guess I don't follow what the author of this passage is trying to convey...

octane is a measure of gasoline's resistance to detonation, and an octane booster is designed to increase this resistance level. what's the difference if it is "lowering the octane requirements" or raising the octane level, as long as detonation is controlled?

Pull_T

If you monitored it closely, you would notice a difference in both mpg and performance. Unfortunately, it would be a DECLINE in both. Higher octane fuel is less prone to predetonation (knocking/pinging), by "burning less hot" to put it simply. It has the roughly the same effect as running a colder spark plug.

Cars running high compression (say 10.5+) would require a high octane fuel (93). Cars with higher effective compression (say 12.0+), whether it is due to physical change to motor(change in parameters of stroke/bore/tolerance), chemical (n2o) or through boost (supercharger/turbocharger) will be the cars that require an octane booster such as what NOS or STP sell.

What you want to run in your car is the lowest octane that will still prevent you from predetenation, which for a car w/o a power adder is the manufacturer's recommendation.

Really the only use for octane booster I could see for a stock to mildly modified car is if you got a bad tank of gas or were for some reason forced to use a lower octane fuel than required, it could be added to provide a measure of safety against predetonation.

A quick/rough explaination of predetonation is when the air/fuel mix in the cylinder fires before the piston is near the top of the stroke. The combustion of the mixture wants to force the piston down while the crank is forcing the piston up, causing at the best a loss in performance and at the worst broken components. Many new cars, like my Cobra have knock sensors that retard timing when predetonation is occuring to help to avoid engine damage. Someone knowledgeable with the CL/CLS should chime in as to whether it they have knock sensors.

[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: Pull_T ]

Pull_T

EricL -

What exactly are you quoting with the "snip-snip"? It is as erroneous as what you wrote.

jdl75

Yes, the CL(-s) and TL(-S) engines have knock sensors.

In the previous post, the author said "fire" before reaching the top of the stroke. To clarify, compressing the air/ fuel mixture increases the temperature. When this happens, the mixture can burn (fire made me look twice) before the piston reaches top-dead-center.

Everything Pull_T said is corret, I'm just clarifying a bit.

Pull_T

Agreed, jd175,no the best word choice, but remember that you are talking BTDC as to when the mixture is "supposed" to ingnite, not TDC. Base TDC on most cars is set at 4-12 degrees advance.

[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: Pull_T ]

Squishy

What is engine ping?

| | <---------- Piston
+-+ | | +-+
| | | | | |
| | | | | |<----- Valve
| |+--+ +--+| |
| || || |
| |+-------+| |
| | *** ****| |<----- initial burn of air feul, burning down
| |*********| |
| | | | |
| | V | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | ^ | |
| | | | |
| |**** ***| |<----- air & feul that gets predetonated gets burned too soon
| |******** | | gasous vapor moves up
| | **** | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| +---------+ |
| |
+-------------+


| |
+-+ | | +-+
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | +--------- Piston moving down
| | | | | | |
| | | | V | |
| |+--+ +--+| |
| || || |
| |+-------+| |
| | *** ****| |
| |***%%%%%*| |<----- Collision of gases / causing pinging sensation
| | %%%%%%% | |
| |**%%%%%**| |
| |******** | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| +---------+ |
| |
+-------------+

Squishy

ok my posting came out like $#!7 oh well..

GoldTypeS_RENAMED

Well, we'll give you an "A" for effort though, Squishy!


Anthony,
Everything I've ever heard about octane boosters says their a complete waste of $$$. Want better gas mileage.... quit driving 120+ on the 101!!!

EricL

We have a knock sensor -- the question is this... How aggressive was Acura in designing the sensor. I think that a number of people assume that if the sensor says 91 is all that is required; there is engineering and marketing going into that statement. So, octane requirements change with humidity, altitude, and temp -- can Acura possible know all of this and that there can be NO advantage to anyone EVER adding extra octane. What do you think would happen to Acura sales in CA if they had a requirement of 93 posted on the site, car, etc -- Anyone ever though of this???

So, until someone does a dyno with an actual full tank of 91 vs. 100, who the heck knows about any of this...

EricL

You go to the link --->
http://www.phoenixknights.net/teamsc...marketbs01.htm

It is the same one that comments on the duralube, ZMax, and other "junk" out there...


snip..snip is:

"In the case of GS27, it's reported that what it does is break down the paint around the scratch and use it to fill it up. This is very dangerous for your car's paint. A scratch should always be professionally filled in with touch-up paint"

Now you have the whole enchilada and its maker...

EricL

From Squishy with a hopeful attempt at resurrection...

<pre>
<font size=+2>


| | <---------- Piston
+-+ | | +-+
| | | | | |
| | | | | |<----- Valve
| |+--+ +--+| |
| || || |
| |+-------+| |
| | *** ****| |<----- initial burn of air feul, burning down
| |*********| |
| | | | |
| | V | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | ^ | |
| | | | |
| |**** ***| |<----- air & feul that gets predetonated gets burned too soon
| |******** | | gasous vapor moves up
| | **** | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| +---------+ |
| |
+-------------+


| |
+-+ | | +-+
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | +--------- Piston moving down
| | | | | | |
| | | | V | |
| |+--+ +--+| |
| || || |
| |+-------+| |
| | *** ****| |
| |***%%%%%*| |<----- Collision of gases / causing pinging sensation
| | %%%%%%% | |
| |**%%%%%**| |
| |******** | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| +---------+ |
| |
+-------------+[/QB][/QUOTE]

</font>
</pre>

[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: EricL ]

EricL

Hmmm... Have you used a can of 104+ -- I have, and so have friends.

One friend with a bad combo modified parts (can you say a mod that didn't quite work well) had only 9.6:1 compression; The leaded high-test at the time kept it running ok. When the switch to unleaded came, it sounded like a metal pot being clanged by a monkey..

So, the first try was, "hey, lets get a can of that 104 stuff. And if one can is good, two cans must be better..." Surprise, the stuff was even less useful with the rather badly done mill and piston misfit job (not my doing).

The fix was running around looking for some expensive gas AND finally putting in a water injection system (no, we didn't hydrolock the engine).

So, if they changed the stuff great -- but the stuff I used was crap...

Pull_T

It better be one hot damn day to make 100 octane neccesary in a stock to mildly modified street car.

When you are using octane numbers, keep in mind that it is not a linear scale. 91 octane is "fairly close" to 93, but 100 and 104 are "very different", if that makes any sense. Weather conditions do play a factor, but not nearly enough to require a 100 octane fuel.

I'm not trying to get in a pissing match here, so please don't think I am flaming. I've pretty much said my piece about octane levels, and my gist boils down to higher octane doing nothing (if not hurting performance) on a car not running high effective compression levels.

Your reference to a case where leaded fuel helped keep the motor alive is a bit vague, you said compression was low, but you didn't mention whether this mod affected the timing. If you somehow got a 25 or 35 degree advance, then it is understanable that very high octane fuel was helpful in that situation, but then you get back to the issue of having a situation that is no longer stock or near stock.

It is the "100 octane is good" tyoe comment that troubles me. A lot of people will think that is apllicable to their cars when you are refering to a different type situation.

My .02

EricL

1. Here is another link with test results of the additives (I'm going to put in a link and excerpt):

------------------------------------
OCTANE IMPROVEMENT: 97.6 (+0.8 RON)

7th

Super 104+ Octane Boost

473ml treats 83 litres RRP: $25.95

The acknowledged winner of all previous testing in this country, Super 104+’s bottle stated we should expect an increase between four and seven point. With a new formula introduced about 12 months ago, identified by an "Eagle" logo on the back of the bottle, the Super 104+ seems to have lost its edge with a marginal gain of just less than 1.0RON.

OCTANE IMPROVEMENT: 97.5 (+0.9 RON)

6th

VP Racing C5

355ml treats 75 litres RRP: $19.95

VP has a strong reputation with fuels and its high octane formulas are very popular (VP?) with drag racers. VP Racing’s C5 Fuel Additive lacked any indication of contents nor claims, but the C5 additive still provided a reasonable increase of 1.3RON.

OCTANE IMPROVEMENT: 98.1 (+1.3 RON)

5th

NOS Octane Booster Racing Formula

355ml treats 60 litres RRP: $28

NOS, a relatively new octane booster, comes in "1/10th" scale bottles designed to emulate the actual nitrous bottles of its successful NOS systems. The Racing Formula is the strongest of three concentrates and containing Hydrotreated Aliphatics and Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl (try saying that 10 times in a row), it contains a lead replacement which NOS claims increases the octane rating by as much as seven points. Obviously not recommended for street use, it also included with a handy pouring spout. In testing, it proved a good result improving the octane rating by almost 2RON.

---------------------------------------------

http://www.gtatech.com/news_au_articl.html


(So, the suppliers of this information can be "challenged" if someone thinks their authority is appropriate!. You and others can see that this "magic" stuff only bumps octane by 1 point. A gallon or two of 100-octane fuel will do the same. The 76 web site has the tables to figure the exact mix...)


Next -- I do actually run a mix of 100 octane and its my car and if I wreck it, I pay the piper myself. Use it, don’t use it, I don’t have any stock in the companies…


As a note, someone on the TL Forum mentioned how "high octane" gas would wreck an engine -- why is so much misinformation runing around as, "This is so..." and not "Well, perhaps"


"The antiknock ability is related to the "autoignition temperature" of the hydrocarbons. Antiknock ability is _not_ substantially related to:


The energy content of fuel, this should be obvious, as oxygenates have lower energy contents, but high octanes.
The flame speed of the conventionally ignited mixture, this should be evident from the similarities of the two reference hydrocarbons. Although flame speed does play a minor part, there are many other factors that are far more important. ( such as compression ratio, stoichiometry, combustion chamber shape, chemical structure of the fuel, presence of antiknock additives, number and position of spark plugs, turbulence etc.) Flame speed does not correlate with octane

Link to Gas Octane FAQ:

http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/AUTO/F_Gasoline6.html


I could keep going, but if you go to www.google.com and enter "Combustion Octane", you can find a lot of the "pros" telling their car owners to increase octane by "paying the piper" and just blending in some good 100 octane gas...

EricL

Well, I've tried the "stuff" and I've done repeated tests. There is something to look at. Challenging "conventional wisdom" is where advancement comes from. It may be a complete waste in a particular car -- I can only speak for my exact configuration -- that's all. (And while there is a seat-of-the-pants issue going, I have done other test – enough said. If I don’t dyno it, it is like trying to hold the water back from a North Sea swell with a sheet of cheap plastic.

You know, every time I mention 100-octane I get flamed for hours. Let's agree that I found an expensive "sugar pill" at the least...

cls'01

If you really wanted to increase your octane rating, you could run Xylene in with your normal (93) octane gas. Its a little pricy but your looking at over 100 octane fuel. Here is a link if you want to read more. http://forums.caranddriver.com/ubb/F...ML/000481.html

tankmonkey

how disingenuous... of course antiknock ability (presumably, octane rating) is "_not_ substantially related" to the energy content of fuel, because the octane rating is inversely related to the energy content of fuel. the cetane rating has a more direct relationship (since it measures a fuel's propensity to autoignite via temperature or compression or both). the cetane rating is important to engines running compression ignition setups (read: diesel engines). the octane rating is important to engines that aren't supposed to autoignite the fuel mixture (read: most 4 stroke gasoline engines).

a fuel with a higher octane rating (lower cetane) is less likely to autoignite than one with a lower octane rating (higher cetane). all things being equal (and they never are) the higher octane rated fuel will typically have lower energy potential in a 4 stroke gasoline engine application due to the octane boosting content. accordingly, a higher cetane rated fuel will (all things being equal) have higher energy potential in a typical diesel engine application due to the lack of combustion impeding content.

personally, I don't care what you put in your car. use avgas if you want (and you think you can get away with it). it has been my experience that the commercially available gasolines with high octane ratings typically bring other benefits to the table, such as improved detergent packages, etc. which might outweigh the (theoretical, at least) negatives of using higher-than-necessary-octane gasoline.

EricL

I notice most of the "carping" about the "fuel" issues are from lucky folks in areas of the country OTHER than California.

If I could get a "tank" of the gas you have in Texas, there probably wouldn't be a bit of difference in performance between the 100-racing gas and the 92-94 octane that people in other parts of the county get.

Yes, in general higher octane has less energy, which is why I posted the link to the paragraph that you find so disingenuous. The link is there for all to view. A member from another forum insisted that 100-octane fuel (from 76) would blow the engine up!.

The one thing I found looking around is the amount of anger and arguments over "octane" and/or 100-octane gas.

This reminds me of when I first put the Toyos on my car…

Why not let people (in CA) explore for themselves (if they like) and see?

IMO – if we had the good 92-94 gas that was available elsewhere, I don’t think this would even be an issue with stock or slightly modified cars…

tankmonkey

I'm not even sure what the hell we're arguing about now...

I've got no problems with the fuel available in my area (even in the winter when we houstonians get oxygenated fuel just like the rest of the country...) and I certainly am not trying to limit the your ability as a californian to try something new (although the air resources board might have something to say about it). I'm not sure where the whole california thing came from (as the original poster, pgatour1, is in AZ and NY) but I can only assume you're defending the honor of CA from some perceived attack from non-californians.

as far as the alleged ignorance of members of other forums, why aren't you posting this information there?

I definitely understand what you mean about folks getting upset when you question their beliefs regarding octane (or whether to use ss at the strip, whether to use synthetic oil or not, whether the mighty, mighty cl type s can beat 'x' car...) and there really isn't anything for it. just human nature.