MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Originally posted here: http://heeltoeauto.com/httech/YaBB.pl?num=1186126842



I get asked this question frequently, and I have an answer. Nay.

Back in the mid 90's when I started with this import stuff, we did not have much choice. Lower the car with shorter springs. Usually, with shorter you get stiffer too. Both these factors will improve the handling of the car. The problems with lowering a car on sport springs with stock shocks are pretty significant though.

#1 Reduced Travel
The stock dampers are designed to work within a given travel range. The will stroke up and down as the car goes over bumps. This movement is needed to maintain a good, safe ride. By lowering the car you are actually moving the range that the shock is asked to work under. You are asking the dampers to do something they are not designed to do by working them in a range that is smaller than they normally do. And one result of this is "bottoming out." When the shocks compress completely they bottom out, and the car crashes on the bump stops. The causes the car to pogo and bounce over bumps in the road, drastically hurting the ride and performance of the car. It is highly recommended to use dampers that are short-stroke or short-case with lowering spring to maintain travel in the damper system.*

#2 Degraded damper life
Speaking from experience, dampers in import cars generally last a very long time under normal conditions. I have seen numerous Accords, Civics, etc go well beyond 100,000 miles with the original shocks only showing hints of softening. You know a shock goes bad when the car seems to float around like a boat as though the springs are allowed to oscillate freely. The shock/strut system is designed to match the stiffness of the spring and keep it in check. The spring compresses to absorb bumps, and it expands to maintain contact with the road over dips. The shock is there to keep the spring from exhibiting natural perpetual motion which would allow it to bounce up and down forever. The combination of lowering the car into a modified travel range, and making the spring firmer (disrupting the stock shocks/spring balance) combine to cause advanced wear in the shocks. A shock that might normally last 10 years now won't last 6 months under normal driving conditions. Here it is recommended that shocks be replaced in conjunction with lowering springs to better match the performance characteristics of the springs.**

#3 Perceived savings result in more costs.
Typically, the savings associated with installing springs onto stock shocks are counteracted by the need to later replace the shocks with new units, aftermarket or otherwise. If shocks and springs are replaced at one time the labor costs are combined into a single cost. Shocks will be needed sooner than normal, and the labor to install them with be paid twice; once when the springs are installed, and once more when the shocks are replaced. In effect, while saving money in not upgrading the dampers, you will just be deferring the cost that you will eventually need to pay anyway, and indeed paying more by paying for labor twice. Save if you gotta. Do the shocks at the same time as the springs.


So, that's my story. I'm stickin' to it.

Marcus


* Note that Tein coilover damper kits all have short-case dampers and are designed to work at reduced ride heights without bottoming. They provide ideal travel, ride, and handling characteristics, which we strongly recommend for street sports driving. These kits are also adjustable for a range of ride heights, along with options such as firmness adjustability and rigid upper pillow mounts.

** We strongly recommend either Koni (twin tube) or Bilstein (mono tube) dampers be used in conjunction with any aftermarket spring, soft, stiff, low, mild, etc. Koni Yellows have the advantage of adjustability to tailer them to nearly any given spring available. Bilsteins offer a mono-tube design which is an upgraded design over twin tubes which provide better driver feedback, response and accuracy.

taz98spin

Thanks for the info!

I'm still saving up to buy those Tein CS from you!

PJS

My only comment is the timeframe mentioned - 6 months compared to 10 years.
Don't agree it's reduced as drastically as that, plus there seems to be taking into account that the replacement springs, whilst shorter, will also be a fair bit stiffer than the OEM ones removed.
This will help eliminate the bottoming out of the shocks, hence why I consider quoting 6 months to be scaremongering at best.
Also, time is not the factor that dictates anything - it's the road type and conditions, the driver's driving style, and ultimately the mileage done.
Not everyone's 6 months will be the same, so a mileage (even if based on 6 months pro rata of 10 years average mileage) makes more sense.

jiggaman

i agree with you marcus from personal experience. my stock shocks didn't last very long with eibach pro kit

HoRRo

Another great article Marcus. Stock shocks on sport springs FTL!

ELSpool

Marcu, since you sell Tein products, specificly the H tech springs that advertise can be used with stock struts, whats your take on this?

TodaSi

Wow, Marcus is posting all his engineering term papers


j/k nice posts

PJS

Should've been "no taking into account"

evo_to_tsx

Technically it should be sport springs on stock shocks

chuson

Well, he stated the aftermarket springs can be used w/ stock stocks, but he didn't said it's the best combination.

It really depends on the buyer budget, but if one choose to lower their car the right way, should go for aftermarket spring + aftermarket shocks or coilover only.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

I don't think budget counts THAT much really. Nobody drives a cheap car here. I thin, somehow, with some will power and saving the correct setup can be atTEINed (lol, TEIN is pronounced TANE, for those unaware).

That being said, the Htechs, Prokits, and Comptechs are all pretty mild and will not offend stock shocks too much.

Tsx6363

informative..

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Just so everyone knows, I am not being a know it all, I am not trying to be preachy...I get asked the same questions over and over again, and I think it is getting easier for me to write one full article explaining my opinions and link people to it rather than spend time typing identical answers. As informative as these are, they are intended to answer past and future questions.

Red@8

I had a mild drop (1.5/1.8) springs on stock shocks that lasted for 10 years and is still going fine as i am told. Not trying to contradict what was posted in this thread as in most cases i agree with the op.

SoCaliTrojan

Who's telling you that it's still going fine?

Perhaps you've gotten used to the feel of the suspension that it feels normal for you? After all, it changes minutely.

I lowered my accord with both aftermarket springs and struts. After maybe 7 years, I think my struts need to be replaced again. The car mainly sat in one spot for 2 years (my dad would drive it from time to time), and I think my dad had used it to store some heavy stuff. I'm driving it little by little now, and it feels like a boat. I notice the difference because I hadn't driven it for 2 years.

Red@8

I am told the setup has not been changed or been needed to be replaced by the current owner who is a friend of mine. He is an avid racer/mechanic so i will take his word for it.

You may be right in terms of it feeling normal to me as over the years as i would not have noticed the minor changes. I do know that the stock struts are still in tact and riding fine with little compromise in ride quality.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

The post is correct as a rule of thumb, but all drivers with all sorts of parts will have different experiences. How hard the car is driven, condition of roads, etc....

Anyway, with a more aggressive drop the shocks would wear sooner. And also they don't just "break" one day. They have a long term degrade in effectiveness. It could be that the shocks, while not bad, are not optimal at this point either.

Marcus