TSXTim

Hi all.

I had the misfortune of cutting a tire. Didnt want to pay
$200 for one Michelin and bought two Pirellis, 235/45R17.
I installed them on the rear, stock tires are still up front.

Not inflated, laying flat on the floor, they are a little
less than .7" wider than stock. About .35" per side
but maybe less.

There is no clearance problem on stock rims.
They dont look a whole lot wider and don't protude
excessively past the rim.

This is the right size for the car. The dealer did not want to
sell them to me, I made him.

They are very smooth and quiet. Rear tires are felt through
your seat. I have to run them up front to test them fully.
The handling really changed. They are really gripping.
Now I need comptech rear bar
and two more matching tires up front.

I love some Bridgestone designs S-03, RE-750, but they
are all unidirectional and summer only. I never get 4 good
Bridgestones, always one or two vibrate at some speed.
Bridgestone does not have the best uniformity, assembly
consistency.

Why I didnt want to pay for more Michelins is the stock tires
are slipping in the wet, are getting noisier at 7K miles, get
a light feeling when drifting on exit ramps. Just not a top performance tire and my thing about tires is wet traction.

The Pzero Nero M+S is a silica tread, this is best for wet traction.
It has open shoulder slots for moving out water and should be
useable in light snow. It is not directional and can be rotated
side to side. It is slightly asymetrical with less shoulder slot depth on the outside for corner power and durability.

Seems like a super all round tire, I have to test them up front
and check high speed uniformity up to 100 mph.

Tim

Lung Fu Mo Shi

I am also looking at these tires.

I'm glad you also noticed the Michelins slipping badly in the wet. The "performance" rated MXM4 slipped worse than my "touring" rated Yoko Avid H4's. Sad really.

TXmotorhead

I agree, 235's are much better suited to the car. Everyone quotes 'charts' that says 235 won't fit on our 7inch rims. Under ideal conditions I would agree but not all of us have the extra cash to dump into another set of rims.

mackdaddy

Any more to report on the PZero-Nero's? I'm not yet satisfied with either of the two choices I've made so far:

Continental ContiExtreme Contact 215/50/17 90W

Yokohama AVID V4S 215/50/17 93V XL

Both sets of tires vibrate above 45-50mph (the Yoko's less than the Conti's, but still not smooth like I want.) These are mounted on OEM Honda SilverStar 17x7" +55mm offset wheels. The wheels were purchased new.

Both sets of tires didn't have much road force variance (less than 20lbs, most were more like 5-7lbs.) The tires all balance fine on the Hunter GSP 9700 machine as well.

If the 235/45/17's fit on the TSX with stock OE wheels, then they damn sure should fit my car as well (2004 Honda Accord EXV6 sedan.)

Any further insight would be greatly apprecited. I've got another 3 weeks on the Yokohama 30 day ride evaluation.

Thanks,
Jim

TSXTim

One reason I liked the Pzero's is they are not unidirecitonal
and can be rotated side to side. I hate uneven wearing tires
getting noisy, that can't be rotated.

Very interesting obsrvations about the ride vibration. Good thing
you are taking advantage of the 30 day ride guarantee.

Where did you get the force variation value, is it a tire store
machine? Force variation of 20 lb can be bad on these cars.
If most of the tires are 5-7 lb this is excellent. Maybe just
replace the one high tire at 20 lb will solve your problem.

Your vibration can be balance or force. Force induced
vibration will have speed resonances too, where it is worse at
certain speeds, but force variation will generally remain or increase with higher speeds. Balance induced vibration will usually hit a dramatic resonance at as specific speed and then
dissipate with higher speed. So if vibration drops off sharply
with higher speed then it is likely a balance problem.

There is also a problem of dynamic balance which is a side
to side couple from weight distribution. This will be a side
to side wobble in you steering wheel at resonant speeds.
Be sure they are using dynamic balance, weighting both
front and back side of the rims.

In force variation, it depends on what the 20 lb force
is composed of,
what harmonic it is. If the tire's force variation makes one smooth sine wave within one tire revolution, it is called 1st harmonic. 2nd harmonic is then the tire's force variation draws out two sine wave periods within one tire revolution, and it goes on to 3rd, 4th etc.
Honda's are terribly sensitive to 2nd harmonic, in fact their
OE tire spec is 5.4 lb of 2nd harmonic and a tire at 20 lb of
total peak to peak force variation will likely exceed 5 lb of
2nd harmonic. Also 20 lb peak to peak force is likely to
contain 12 lb or more of 1st harmonic and will vibrate a car.
I have found 17 lb of 1st harmonic very unpleasant in large
heavy cars.
Recent tire specs for the OE tires are now around 11-12 lb of
1st harmonic, so 20 lb may be a big problem for you.

See if whoever measured the force of your tires can tell
you the harmonics too but if there is one tire near 20 lb
and the rest are 5-7, try replacing the just the high tire.

This is the unique advantage of Michelin, they have
the industry leading assembly quality and uniformity, by
a very wide margin, very wide.
This is how they command the price. They have to get the
price because their processes are so inefficient Michelin can't
compete on price.

Anway, just got 2 more Pzero Neros and will install Saturday
morning and I report on Sunday.
I also have comptech rear bar now.
I'm a little disspointed,
I moved the Pzero's up front recently and now I have a pull to the right. The dealer will replace the bad tire(s) no problem.
I have to swap tires front to back and side to side to isolate
the bad one but I already have a pretty good idea it's the one
on the right front. Pulling is from the centering of the steel
belts in the assembly.

I also have a vibration come in strong at 60-65 mph and then
dissipate. This may be balance since it has a speed resonance .
I will have the wheels rebalanced.
Sears installed my Pzero's.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

I also got a set of these tires for my new rims in 235/40/18. One they are on, I will report.

mackdaddy

Very informative post.. thanks so much for the lesson!

The tires are always dynamically balanced, that's just common sense. The old days of static balancing are truely a thing of the past.

The road force variance I stated above was found on Discount Tire's Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Variance balancer. I've actually got two tires I'm concerned with. One with 20lbs, the other with 15lbs of force variance. The other two were below 10lbs.

I'm taking it back in this morning to recheck, and if it still vibrates, I'm ordering Michelin's. Tired of fooling around. As much as most don't like the OE 215/50/17 93V Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 tires, I'm sure they'll satisfy my needs for a smooth freeyway ride, and light snow driving capabilities.

Please post up your findings with the Pirelli's. I'm still interested to see if 235/45/17's fit, and drive without issue on 17x7" OE fittment wheels.

Thanks,
Jim

mackdaddy

My quest is now moot. I traded up the Yokohama's for 215/50/17 93V Michelin Pilot HX MXM4's (same as you all get stock.) Most don't like them, I love them. They're glass smooth on the highway, and the cold weather dry pavement turn in is really nice. These are the two areas I focused on today. More as they break in (although most could care less, as they're dumping them for something else!)

Oh well, I'm really happy so far. Smoke'n hot deal from Discount Tire on them too. Only cost me an additional $96, and that included the road hazzard warranty on all four tires (paid $468 total for the Yoko's installed, no road hazzrd.) I'm pleased as punch on the $$ aspect alone!

Jim

PS - Tim, I'd still like to see more of your opinion on the Pirelli's.

Edited to correct "205" to "215."

TSXTim

I'm sure the Michelins are a good choice. Every tire choice
has some risk and alot of compromise.

I could recommend the Bridgestone Re750 and S03.
These are ultimate in performance but useless in light
snow and I only got 20k miles out of re730's on an Altima.
This is just too costly so I tried the Pzero Nero this time
because they are M+S and are not unidirectional.
The Bridgestones will have some ride disturbance issues
too. I never got a set of 4 out of 4 good Bridgestones either.

I got more time in with four Pzero's.
I moved the suspect tire back to the rear and ride is smooth
up to 90 mph. It was the right front tire causing the ride
disturbance and pulling. I will get it exchanged.

The tires are superb. The TSX handling and adhesion was
never right to me. I could drive this car faster than I have
ever driven anything before, but I was always aware that
there were limits and I didn't dare test them. I was never comfortable pitching it. On the Saturday night pizza run over the mountain I had a blast. It really stuck. There is button hook
than I always resorted to the brakes before, no such thing tonight, it was all mine.

These tires really work on this car. I also have the comptech
rear bar that killed the understeer but I was not satisfied
with this bar with two Michelins up front and to Pirellis
on the back. With 4 pirelli's now it is working.

There are alot of problems changing tires, cost of the tires, cost
of shipping, cost of mounting and balancing. Now apparently one
bad ride tire has to be returned and exchanged at my cost to
ship it back and remounting. Is it worth it ?

There have been statements about the fitment not being right
for 7.0" wide wheels. I layed a straight edge across the sidewalls
and measured to the rim, the tire protrudes .25" past the plane
of the rim. I don't see a problem with that. The design rim for
the P235/45R17 is 7.5", +/- .5" rim width is well within normal tolerance.