jmf

Realistically (with parts that are available now or in the near future), the ultimate M3-eater in performance and handling. Retaining most of the engine reliability is important, as well as luxury amenities and appearance.

How's this for a start:

Redline oil, DC Headers, Injen CAI, custom full race exhaust (no cat), Hondata
reflash, Hondata heatshield gasket, lightweight clutch/flywheel, lightweight tire/wheel combo, CT short shifter, larger rear sway, A-Spec suspension, Type-S head, and 45 degree VTC mechanism.

CT Supercharger and intercooler when available.

Take out the spare, too and you can shave off maybe a total of 120 lbs or so total with above list. What HP/TQ gains would you see total with these mods, what would a 0-60 and quarter mile run be (with and without the supercharger)? Handling with the above list coupled with good tires is more than adequate to hang with the BMW.

Plus we all know the TSX lux amenities kill Bimmer for the dough.

DaveWhyman

Hmmm. drop 5-6 grand just so you can hang with the M-3's or just just go and buy a two year old M3 for the same price as a new TSX and all these mods. If you want M3 handling and performance, buy an M3.

BlackAc036

To each his own, if he follows the Hondata TSX thread he'll get some mad whp...

taewlee

the point is to beat m3 with the tsx. i bet all those modded 3 series bimmers the realtime tsx guys are beating are faster and handle better than a stock m3. 3 series is overrated....

iTimmy

Have you ever driven an E46 M3? There's more to that car then numbers- I own and love my TSX, for me its damn near the perfect car at this point in my life. But there is NO way it will be able to compete with what makes an M3 great- sure the M3 is fast in a straight line and handles wonderfully in the twisties- it has a balance and give the driver confidence to push the car to the limits with out going too far. There is no way- IMO- to replicate that with a FWD Acura.

Besides if you think a TSX will hang with an M3 through the turns with an A-spec suspension, larger rear sway and light weight wheels and tires your going to be dissapointed. Further even with all of the mods your talking your going to be lucky to put down 300hp, through a FWD 4cyl car. I'd bet the M3 will take you in straight line performance as well.

Appreciate the TSX for what it is, it is not nor well ever be an M3-eater and maintain any level of reliability.

g35doc

What's a realtime tsx? Also, are you saying a modded 3 is faster than an M3 or the TSX is faster than an M3.

savage

go see if you can find more info on the HKS tuned TSX... that should be able to run the paces with an M3...

then again the TSX has the potential to be a completely different animal altogether...remember its a japanese fwd car vs a german rwd... very different driving characteristics to begin with...

although i want some sort of M3 level performance i know its not financially reasonable right now...i will just hold off a few more years and trade my tsx in for a next gen M3..

jmf

Getting an M3 would be great. Some of us just want something different and love our TSXs. There are thousands of people who put tens of thousands of dollars into their cars just because they can or they want to be unique. BMW is considered by most to be the benchmark of luxury performance and the M3 is considered to be the ultimate BMW. The current M3 that is almost exactly the same size as the TSX, but we all know they are different in many ways. I was just using it as something to strive for in performance while maintaining the lux feel and look, and because most on this forum who know anything about cars can at least appreciate the M3 for what it is. I know the TSX will never quite be made into an M3 clone, but it can be made to handle better and faster and while maintaining reliabilty unknown to those that have had the BMW experience.

I have fallen in and out of love with many cars, and right now I know that I got the best value in luxury, performance, safety, resale, and looks under 35K even though I paid far less than 30 for my fine car.

That being said, any more suggestions or ideas as to how to make the TSX and even badder machine? What do you guys think of the list so far?

jmf

Check this out:

http://www.realtimerl.com/

An M3 basically is a modded 3 series, yes some modded 3 series are faster than a stock M3, and no there is no TSX besides maybe the aforementioned HKS tuned TSX turbo that can keep up with an M3 in a straight line, and that is only with Sauceman at the wheel.

CarbonGray Earl

When I think of what to strive for, I think more Italian than German.....think Ferrari. Hey, were dreaming aren't we? Actually, after renting a 360 Modena, and driving my TSX, you do tend to notice that the way power develops between Honda and Ferrari are quite similar. Both LOVE to rev, but obviously, you are getting a lot more power outta the car with a Prancing Horse on its hood....

I don't know if an E46 M3 is in reach unless you drop some dough....but I love the look on those 325 snobs when I keep up or pass them

Oh, and go Realtime!! Gotta love those race-prepped TSXs. I just wish they would sell us some of their parts...

taewlee

http://www.bimmerworldracing.com/dat...hp?goPage=cars

"Chassis 2003 BMW 325i
Engine 290+ Hp, 8200 RPM 2.5L inline 6 cylinder "

And these are full on race cars that weigh like 2500lbs....
M3 stock is very heavy even with 333hp

This 3 series sedan is fully raced modded, light weight, and has 290+ hps. It will spank the poo poo out of a stock M3.

http://www.speedvisionwc.com/2005/tc-standings.html

half of the TC class is full of 3 series and but most their real world performance is poor. honda has almost always beat bmw in real world races. i'm just saying, people get caught up in the name game "bmw" like armani or etc ..
real world races like these show that the underdogs like honda/acura/mazda can beat snobby namebrands easily.

g35doc

Won't these modded TSX's and 325i's cost even more than a stock M3 and won't they be missing some amenities?

taewlee

check it out 16 out of the 41 cars in the race are all your beloved 3 series ....

40% of the cars and 50% of teams are bimmers.

only 5 out of the 41 cars are acura.

that's like 12% of the cars and one team Acura.

bmw outnumbers acura more than 3 : 1 in this war of cars.
bmw has very very strong support in the racing world with many teams and even companies backing up bmw. bmw right now is like modern day nobility, people respect the name even though they know shit about cars.

if bmw makes the ultimate driving machine, has tons of teams willing to fix it up, has tons of drivers willing to race for it, why do they keep losing to one acura team?

it's like a modern day david vs goliath lol
bmw has most of everyone's support, even tsx owners in here lololol, and acura is fighting back.

sadly for you german lovers, they rarely win a race.... but no one cares about that as long as it's a bmw.

CarbonGray Earl

I don't think its a question of value when it comes to modding. I think even if I bought an M3, I would try to do something to it. But making a jump from stock TSX to M3-eating TSX would be mucho $$$ and time.

CarbonGray Earl

I think it at least answer the question of FWD vs. RWD, at least for cars of this class. After power/weight, and other factors are made equal, Acura still dominates with its FWD....I love it.

Taewlee, you're pretty passionate about this....and I feel pretty much the same way. But I believe, expect for the Speed World Challenge, this year is a pretty bad year for Honda. In the premier race series (F1), Honda's whole reason for VTEC and many other technologies, we haven't scored any points in yet. =(

taewlee

i think honda's still a nooblar in f1, we have give honda more time to develop in that area.

taewlee

i dont think it'll cost mcuh at all.... say a brand new m3 will cost roughly 55- 60k.
my tsx was roughly 30k, so that gives me 30k more dollars to mod my tsx.

1. turbo to around 500hps as in hondata's article $5k
2. better suspension $3k
3. better tire and wheels $2k
4. new brake system $2k

for around $12k + $30k = $42k , you can have 500hp tsx with upgraded suspension, brakes, and tires which will spank the poo poo out of a stock m3 and save that additional $10 - 15k for other fun things! like tacos...

g35doc

I think someone should do this...

taewlee

and xizor, please dont hate on my posts anymore lololol

taewlee

someone's already working on it, i forgot what major magazine publication is attempting to overtake m3 with a tsx. it's sportcompact magazine or something. But anyways, already being working on.

iTimmy

1. turbo as in hondata's article was under 450hp in a civic, and it would cost more then $5k for the turbo set-up installed by itself, let alone the lower end that needs to be upgraded(as mentioned by hondata).
2. You said a-spec suspension and rear sway bar, while I know that won't equal M3 handling it also doesn't cost any where near $3k- but I'm assuming you've read coilovers are the answer, so now coilovers and a rear sway bar will better M3 handling?
3. Better wheels and tires are going to cost more then $2k- a new set of Volks is about $2k alone, with out good tires.
4. Brakes are around $2.5k before installation

Assuming you can do all the work yourself, your at or so damn close to M3 pricing for a car that has no waranty, little resale value and probably isn't near as "streetable" as an M3. It doesn't make sense to do, why can't you accept the TSX for what it is? Sure you can push the car to the limits but its not going to be reliable, a 300+hp FWD 4cyl is NOT going to last a long time, and parts are going to break often. As where an M3 out of the box is a reliable and durable car. Do you understand the added stress 300hp will add to a chassis that has 200hp from the factory? The car is not built for that and will require too much work to stiffen the entire car to with stand the added power, to even think of making it seem like a good value.

So have you driven an E46 M3? I suspect not, the engineers at BMW do know what they are doing believe it or not and have built an amazing car that is a good value for what your getting- much like the TSX.

By creating your dream your going to ruin what makes the TSX so great, its balance. It doesn't do anything particularly well, except reliablity- but everything else it does well, and that is hard to find in a car.

afici0nad0

there's specs on the tsx used in the SCCA PRO RACING WORLD CHALLENGE...

http://www.speedvisionwc.com/competi...-acura-tsx.pdf

Dan Martin

Also keep in mind that the Realtime TSX costs well over $100K. Suspension alone costs more than a brand new TSX.

CarbonGray Earl

Are you serious?? Look at the 90's, Ayrton Senna/Honda pwned that whole series!! We aren't noobs; we should be winning, let alone not be losing to, dare I say, Toyota!!

LB-TSX

The TSX that Sports Compact Magazine is working on is extremely close to the M3 on a slalom, plus does better on a skidpad. A little more power and the TSX would own an M3 on any track.

jmf

You underestimate the potential of your Honda. One thing I will give you is the handling won't be the same due to the difference between fwd and rwd. The M3 does have that balance. That being said, it more driveline loss than a fwd vehicle, and it is a little heavier than the TSX. Stiffen the rear up, lower, and adjust the camber and the TSX will be a formidable adversary to the M3. Will it handle differently than the M3, sure. But the biach will handle. Add LSD and it will be sick.

As for the K24 engine (or almost any Honda 4-banger for that matter), with a few internal upgrades, 300 HP is no where near the "limit". That sort of power can be achieved with exceptional reliability, and put down more efficiently to the wheels than the Bimmer can.

BTW I did not specify as to a limit on the price of mods. There are many reasons someone would rather have the TSX over the BMW besides the difference in price. Most people would say spending $50,000 on any car is a rediculous waste of money, any way you slice it. For now, I'll take the $27,000 car and $20,000+ for mods or maintenance or gas money or tacos. That's a lot of queso.

jmf

Besides power upgrades, which could be had for less than 10k, how much $$ would you say they have invested in the TSX to get it on par with the M3 in the handling dept?

taewlee

well i think honda buying bar recently shows that honda is going into F1 full time now... before they just sold engines, but now they are finally taking over a team and going into head on.... so i think we have to give them some time before we see any real results?

taewlee

can anyone help me find a job? i am unemployed lol

jmf

www.monster.com

www.careerbuilder.com

If these don't work try this one, which is fitting for the thread:

www.tacobell.com

I have a feeling that with all the money everyone saved by buying a TSX over an M3 there is going to be a huge increase in the demand for TACOS. Of course if you drive an M3 you probably lots of the TACO not served at fast food establishments.

LB-TSX

At that time, all they had done to it was put in some coil overs, new rims, new tires and a Brembo brake kit. Just by doing that they numbers were extremely close to that of an M3. I believe the M3 had a faster slalom, and it was only by less than 2 seconds (don't quote me on the exact time, but i was extremely close.) With more power, the TSX will eat up an M3. I believe I still have that issue lying around here somewhere. I'll look it up and let you know the exact numbers.

LB-TSX

Here's a link to a previous thread on here.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...=sport+compact

jmf

I would appreciate that very much. What was the date of the issue? Is it a series of articles?

taewlee

also, they have not added a better rear sway bar in and they are only using wimpy 225 tires.... my car is 235 and a rear sway and after i get ground control and koni, header, lightweight flywheel, and few more mods here and there, i plan to do an extensive test on it. this won't be for a year or two though....

CarbonGray Earl

Okay, this is the last I'll talk on this subject since this is almost a blatant thread hijack....Honda not only sold engines but also worked with Prost and Senna and the teams. They won something like 6 F1 constructors championships in the 90s, so there is nothing wrong in expecting more. There was much more than just plain engines....this was Soichero-sans passion. They should be RETURNING to dominance, rather than being amongst the back of the pack. I'll agree to disagree, Taewlee.

You can't find a job? I don't know what you do, but there are a ton of industry and a grip of companies are in Irvine, Costa Mesa, etc....I used to work in Costa Mesa, and close Brembo's headquarters off of Sunflower and Harbor.

jmf

So have you driven an E46 M3? I suspect not, the engineers at BMW do know what they are doing believe it or not and have built an amazing car that is a good value for what your getting- much like the TSX.

My Dad's little brother has one that he lets me drive whenever he is in town. It is an amazing vehicle, and yes, it is a good value. Remember the M3 is the benchmark, and it is because it is the benchmark, it must be taken down. It is the sincerest form of flattery. I think we would all agree that the BMW engineers know what they are doing. Although companies like Hondata and Comptech may not be giants like BMW, they have teams of brilliant minds that put out exceptional perfomance products that best original factory components and parts. With some exceptions, I am pretty sure aftermarket manufacturers know what they are doing, too.

LalchandYamlajat

A Type-S head wont work on our engine.

samkws

Good luck, make sure send us a video of getting smoked by a M3

M3 will eat any Acura in the lineup, even a stock NSX a M3 can walk away

jmf

Who said anything about stock? The idea here is to MOD a TSX so that it can hang with a STOCK M3 off the line and around the curves, that's it. There are tons of modded Hondas/Acuras that can do that already.

BTW if you're interested I'm taking deposits on the video to help pay for my mods so I can smoke the M3.

Black_6spd

LOL. Check this video out. Acura ITR vs. M3 w/ SMG....

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1238788