rmpage

I hope so. I was about to shit myself if it was just an I/H/E.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

You need K-Pro or a reflash designed for the cams to run them.

PixelHarmony

From what ai read about the RSX engine kit, they provide you with a reflashed stock ECU, and this will require no dyno tuning, since they are just swaping the internals. What impresses me more is the 9000rpm redline on the RSX with 1-74% throttle giving lift at 5000rpm, and 75-100% throttle giving lift at 3,900rpm, that's one rev happy monster to drive.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

To rev to 9,000 you need upgraded springs as well though. Cams + Springs + ECU = $2,400 + install.

PixelHarmony

The engine kit sells a complete setup of Cams, springs, ECU, and free shipping for $2300ish... install should be somewhere in 3-5 hours?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Yeah so figure $65/hour... 5 hours = $325

dzuy

why get the ecu? wouldn't hondata possibly release another reflash for the cams?

hint hint. <- to hondata.

when changing cams - might as well change valvespings, retainers too

i still wonder about ips cams tho. they are supposedly working on cams for the tsx, but i think (cant remember) they were pretty expensive.

we'll see

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

hint, hint... the ECU he's refering to in the "kit" is basically a reflash very similar to Hondata

Correct you might as well... although that's when things start getting expensive and they aren't needed really unless you wanna rev to 8,000rpm in the TSX.

Yeah usually around $2,000 with cams and K-Pro

dzuy

no duh.

it's a flash similar to hondata, but it's not a hondata reflash.

and correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't hondata offer updated flashes for a discounted rate instead of paying full price for one.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Yes they do if the upgrade is compatable.


i.e., The RSX-S Hondata #4 reflash is compatable with the K-Pro (easy upgrade) $500 discount

However, k100 is not compatable with K-Pro so there is no discount.

ITR#203

the ECU in the Toda engine Kit is done by Hondata. However, Hondata will not sell this map outside of the engine kit. I repeat, if Toda does make a Engine Kit, you will not be able to get the exact map outside of the kit from Hondata.

If you get K-pro, I believe you can request a map for the Toda cams and they will give you a similar, but less tuned version of the map (not that it matters because you are supposed to optimize the map anyway).

I'm really looking forward to this kit. Yes, going NA is gonna take more money, but there's something about the idea of revving to 8k that I like, maybe cause I miss my Integra type R. Plus, the gains should be nice since TSX stock cams are less agressive on the top end than even the smaller K20A2's (02-04 RSX-S) cams. With a bigger 2.4, there's no telling how much our current cams are holding us back.

dzuy

really? didn't know that, thanks.

so you're telling me that the reflash i bought would be a waste of money if i got the cams?

unless hondata produces the k-pro, which they already said that we would just pay the difference?

that stinks.

so what about the ips set up?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

IPS is the same way... you'll need some sort of new reflash or new K-pro calibration. And the calibration will most likely be locked so you can't alter it or share with your buddies.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

The way to go is swap the K20 head and ditch the DBW throttle.

dzuy

so i wonder if hondata will offer a reflash that is upgradable from the regular reflash.

that would be great.

dzuy

the DBW does suck.

for the money required to do a k20a swap - it would DEFINETLY be bettter to get a comptech blower. i know you'll agree to that

the hondata reflash helped out a bit on the sensitivity of the DBW - before, there would always be a slight delay in throttle response.

:troutslap

PixelHarmony

I hate that delay...

BlackTSXer

im almost positive that there will be a discount to current hondata owners if a toda or ips cams setup comes out with a new kit with a new hondata reflash

tuan209

i emailed them again and here is what they had to say.

Hello,

Next week we'll be test fitting our exhaust manifold. Camshaft and ECU testing is still in progress. Please check back with us in late May.

Best regards,
TODA Racing USA/AKH Trading
130 McCormick Ave. Suite 107
Costa Mesa, Ca 92626
Tel 714-327-0181
Fax 714-327-0184
www.todaracing.com
www.worksuperwheels.com

jmathew34

exhaust manifold, yummy!!!

can't wait to see a side-by-side comparison of the dc sports vs toda headers...

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

TODA = extremely overpriced. You pay for the name. Even worse than Comptech.

Dan Martin

The TODA header will be killer but $$$$.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Yeah... who wants to pay $1,100+ for some pipes?

dzuy

ouch. i didn't realize the toda header was that expensive.

i thought it was around 700-800. not over a 1k. ouch.

MC-CL7

I think the Euro R Toda header is around 120,000 yen, which is around $1200usd.

PixelHarmony

Werd... you're looking at 1k+

Did anyone with Hondata compare dynos with the DC sport vs Comptech headers?

dzuy

i got comptech header already

so maybe just get toda cams instead. unless i somehow can get the toda stuff cheap.

i'll check my sources next week.

ITR#203

Toda is overpriced. However, it's better than Comptech and Mugen; both of which have high standards of quality, yet when it comes to power production, they are extremely conservative. Never have I seen a product from either company make the most power.

Toda headers will make good power and have extremely good quality. Their header was considered one of the best for the F20C (even though no header did much for that car; there was one dyno that showed a 15 hp gain on a supercharged one), the B18C5, and the K20A/K20A2. If comptech is making 4-5 hp, I'd expect 8-10 hp out of a Toda header.

However, the loop hole is that if Toda were to go with a design with extremely long runners, which would necessitate the use of a test pipe to replace the catalytic converter to make it fit (a la K20A/K20A2), I'd expect over 15hp at least with gains being better with more naturally aspirated mods that you have (FI headers have different design prerequisites- the F20C example was used only cause there are no FI headers on the market for the S2k at least the last time I checked), but obviously this would limit the market that they could sell the header to considering the consumer base of TSX/Euro Accords is much different from RSX/Integras. The reason a longer runner design would help so much is that to keep emissions low on the K-series engines, the cat is located very close to the engine itself to ensure that the cat gets up to working temperature quickly reducing startup emissions. This is a huge restriction in the exhaust system. Something to think about.

cmf

Bad example if you ask me.

Toda puts out way better gains than Comptech does when you compare hp per dollar.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

On what car?

hondata

ITR#302 is correct. A race header with longer primaries and longer secondaries is going to be necessary in order for cams to work. This will mean replacing the catalytic converter - not with a test pipe, but with header with longer secondary pipes.

ITR#203

-My bad, the Toda header does replace the Cat with the header itself.

-The Jackson Racing header is the one that is only longer by a little bit so the cat is replaced by a test pipe that is a bit shorter than the cat.

Thank Hondata.

P.S. Any update on '05 ECU's?

dzuy

hmm. so if i wanted their cams i might as well get their header too eh?

thats alot of dough yo.

madmanmax3000

how do aftermarket cams affect daily drivability?

rmpage

Because a header's runners are of a specific length so as to be tuned to the duration of the exhaust valves, anything that affects the valve timing/lift will affect how much a header benefits an engine. This is one reason why I'm still glad to have a Comptech header in spite of the improved DC design, because the Hondata reflash was designed using the Comptech header (although I'm not sure how much this actually means and am eager to see how the DC header does with a reflashed engine on a dyno).

Naturally Toda would tune their header to match their engine build, and the ECU reflash would be performed accordingly as well.

rmpage

Can't edit:
Street cams generally don't make it idle too rough but it depends how aggressive they are (and the word "street" implies that they won't be very aggressive).

Here is where we reap an advantage with VTEC - because there are two sets of cam lobes, they can design the low lobe to be less aggressive for a smooth idle and ride down low while making the high lobe lift so high it drives valves down into the crankcase for mucho hp.

I had performance cams in my V8 Dakota. I had the idle set at 1500 RPM and the engine would still sound like it was about to stall. Once I got going though, the dual pipes sounded like a battery of howitzers firing for effect.

madmanmax3000

i still dont get this whole "rough idle" meaning loud? or lots of vibration in the cabin?

also it sounds like your saying that it would be a lot louder through the RPM band...are we talking a difference in sound comparable to non-CAI vs. CAI or something that just changes the pitch a bit more like an exhaust would?

Dan Martin

The sound isn't like an intake or exhaust mod, it has it's own unique sound. The people that have had the reflash done are experiencing the sound to a certain degree.

Cams control when, how fast, and how long the valves open and close.

If the valves open faster and stay open longer, your engine will sound a lot different. It will be a little louder but the tone will be different. Street cams have an acceptable idle meaning you won't have as much vibration as a racing cam profile but you'll likely have a little more than stock. Racing engines hardly ever idle so they don't care about vibration.

madmanmax3000

i see, and would this also make stalling a much greater possibility? as with a lightweight flywheel

Dan Martin

I don't think the cams would cause your car to stall unless you were running a really aggressive set. You won't have any trouble with a set that's designed to be run on the street.

The lightweight flywheel might give you a little trouble since it's a little more tricky to launch smoothly.