kangjin

I was filling up at a gas station and went to check the oil level...and I noticed that my dipstick had popped up a little bit. Initially, I thought I just forgot to push it all the way down the last time I checked, but then I came home and saw this thread:

k20a.org thread

I followed the links (product here and s2k forum thread here) ...and most of it went over my head, but it sounds like this could happen to us as well?

Anyone else notice their dipstick popping up unexpectedly? I found it interesting in the s2k thread that they mentioned Comptech recommended the KrankVent product...

Or maybe I'm crazy, since we're running such low boost. Would there be any way to test the pcv valves? I need to get my oil catch can back on...

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The PCV valve is not functional under boost. I'm not sure what good is the Krank vent when placed in-line with the PCV hose. It's simply non-functional as well.

kane.s2k

Hi there guys.

Let me clear up a few things about that product. The PCV is suppose to keep out boost that is what it should be doing. Also, saying the krank vent units are not functional as well is inaccurate...very inaccurate. Comptech has recently done testing on the factory honda PCV valves under low boost conditions (6-7psi) and found that they blow through completely. It's actually a drastic amount the vehicle blows though. When comptech tested a supercharged S2000 with the krank vent unit, they made some significant gains and issued a notice recommending the krank vent units to suppliment their supercharger kits. A certain NASCAR builder has also started equiping the cars with a different version of the Krank Vents for N/A cars because it helped to greatly smooth out the torque curve.

The way the Krank Vent mini turbo kit works is that is creates partial vaccum inside the motor. The partial vaccum helps the piston rings seal better and keeps oil vapors from blowing through and back into the intake track slicking everything (including the intercooler and reducing its efficiency) plus causing detonation because of the oil burning in the combustion chamber.

The dipstick popping up is the first tell tale sign that you are having a lot of boost seeping through the PCV. Failure to keep the pressure out of the crankcase has cause plenty of engines to have their ringlands fail and destroy their motors. The Krank Vent units are basically like super PCV valves and very fast acting. There has only been one failure in the years they have been around and that was with a ~2000psi pressure wave from a motor blowing up. You can either keep the existing PCV and put this inline (to save time on installation) or you can remove the factory PCV unit and place fittings on the valve cover to have them run.

On the boosted S2000's the lowest gain I have seen was 18whp and the highest has been 33whp. We will be doing one final test of our own with a 600whp S2000 shortly to see exactly how much we can pick up on the more powerful S2000's. Before I started to sell them, I saw them personally and was absolutely amazed. It's one of the products I am very glad to carry and be the sole honda distributor for because it's not that expensive for all that it can and does do. From the first day that I was boosted on my S2000, I had the dipstick poping up problem and this unit remedied that for plenty of people. The viper and boosted ferrari guys swear by these units.

kane.s2k

off topic - this forum doesn't allow you to edit threads?

chuson

So I guess only TSX w/ FI needs KrankVent product...??? N/A TSX will see no gain @ all?

kane.s2k

That is not true. We just don't have any data to back-up any claims on honda engines just yet. However, some NASCAR builders are using the krank vent items now and those engines are N/A. They have not seen significant HP gains but their torque curve has smoothed out greatly especially in the low-mid. These units have a patent for being the only kit that actually creates partial vaccum in the crankcase which has the main benefit of allowing the rings to seat properly.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

My question is how exactly does the Krank vent create vacuum under boost? How much vacuum?

Btw, if there is any pressure build-up inside the crankcase, it would go out through the valve cover vent tube during boost.

junktionfet

I haven't looked real close at the intake setup on my TSX, however I seem to recall a hose connecting the valve cover to the rubber hose between the throttle and the air filter. In a supercharged application, this hose would not be under positive pressure. Exactly how does boost pressure act on the PCV valve in that case? I would assume that cylinder blow-by would increase a bit with forced induction, but we aren't talking about that here, are we?

kane.s2k

If it is installed according to directions, it blocks off the intake manifold port (pcv side) and pulls in vaccum from the crankcase breather which should be connected to the inlet of the compressor. There are two units and which ever side (pcv or cc breather) will open to expell the pressure. This system does not aim to have 0atm pressure but to create a vaccum.

You are correct, however not sufficiently because more air is pumped into the crankcase through the PCV side than can be expelled. Remember, there is plenty of pressure created by windage and air going past the rings which is what the stock system is made to handle but adding boost to the mix actually overwhelms the system.

kane.s2k

All PCV setups are identical no matter what car. You have one end that goes from the crankcase to intake manifold which is suppose to take out the pressure and another to draw fresh air in. When you add boost, the system works backwards almost. The plastic PCV units that come from factory have showed up to fail under even low psi in all of our testing and they would actually introduce boost back into the crankcase further pressurizing the system. The krank vent unit actually changes that to basically open which ever side will actually pull out vaccum.

Cylinder blow-by does increase with F/I and that adds to the crankcase pressure which actually overwhelms the system with the factory PCV setup.

We have seen nothing but gains and happy customers with these units. As I had stated, on a supercharged S2000, we are gainning a good bit of hp. I wouldn't doubt if our sponsored 600whp S2000 doesn't end up gainning 30whp from this mod at all. At the very least you have a PCV valve you can use on any car because these are universal and should last a lifetime.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Do you have a diagram of how this system should work?

kane.s2k

http://forums.s2000turbo.com/viewtopic.php?t=368

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Can you show the direction of flow during normal operation and under boost from both valves?

kane.s2k

both valves flow out of the crankcase. Hence why it can create a vaccum under boost and normal driving conditions.

junktionfet

Sounds like a simple solution. It is basically a check valve that prevents positive pressure from acting on the "manifold-side" of the PCV valve--effectively turning the "vent" on the valve cover (the aforementioned hose connecting between the air filter and throttle) into the primary PCV port.

In a weird sort of way, this retains the "normal" functionality of the PCV system, even under boost.

The PCV valve is meant to meter crankcase vapors into the intake manifold. It is the pressure differential and timing of pulses in the vacuum of the intake manifold that make it work. At wide-open throttle, the pressure inside the intake manifold is theoretically at atmospheric... so the PCV valve ceases metering.

The addition of the check valve between the manifold and PCV valve effectively returns this ratio/balance of pressures.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Is it really a vent or it's simply an one-way check valve? If it's a check valve, then the one in-line with the PCV valve would not have created any vacuum during boost. The one that connects to the compressor side of the SC would have constantly suck in blowby gases and vapor and all ended up in the intake manifold.

junktionfet

Errr... if the pressure in the crankcase is MORE than the pressure in the intake manifold, then yes--they would both "flow out of the crankcase" at the same time.

At light load when the intake manifold has a vacuum, I'd wager that the PCV valve will be the only one emitting crankcase vapors. And at full boost, I'd wager that the "vent" side will be the only one emitting crankcase vapors.

junktionfet

JTso, that is a good observation--However doesn't the vent side of the TSX already have an oil separator? That box thing attached to the intake hose? I'm sure the valve cover offers some kind of buffer as well.

kane.s2k

junktion, you have nailed it on head. Thank you. I'm sort of in a mad rush right now so not everything might have been very clear.

I wasn't referring to the krank vents at the same time. I mean that that is just how they work. One the both pull out of the crankcase not neccesarily at the same time.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The ulitimate crankcase evap solution would be an external vacuum pump and connects to the PCV side and leave the valve cover vent tube as is. It would allow constant evap under all conditions.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The little box is just an empty chamber, much like a resonator. It's not really a separator.

chuson

hey kane.s2K~ I've no doubt about your knowledge on cars. Your explaination above, does it apply to ANY (or all Honda) cars, or for S2000 only?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

A cheaper but still effective solution is an open system with no PCV valve which vents to the atmosphere.

kane.s2k

Well, a catch can is recommended as well. This greatly reduces oil consumption since the vaccum helps the rings seat better. We have had users get about 70-90% reduction in oil consumption. This is attributed to the rings sealing better and thus less blow-by.

kane.s2k

Chuson, it is a universal application and works for automobiles and motorcycles.

kane.s2k

JTso, I think you are missing the point I am making and also what I am telling you our testing has shown. Comparing a completely open system to ours and calling it equivalent is incorrect and unfair at best. Engineers would not go through the hassle of designing a PCV system including location and passages if they could just drill a bunch of holes.

Plus that wouldn't be environmentally friendly

kane.s2k

Here you go, a thread on oil consumption (btw, the maker of the thread is not sponsored by my company or the maker of the krank vents as a matter of fact I'm sure he hates my guts so he has no reason to make up results).

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=395314

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Actually, I know what you are saying and appreciate your input. I'm just throwing other options out there for discussion purposes. The product to use depends on the application. An open system is not out of the question for a race setup where emission control is not the primary concern. Personally, I won't do it because of the odors under the hood.

kane.s2k

Fair enough

I am just trying to get people aware of a product that has been very good to the S2000's guys so far as well as other cars. I was actually looking for info on the TSX engines for a special request from a friend of mine when I stumbled on this.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Welcome to the forum! There is no shortage of info here. If you are looking for certain specific info, please feel free to ask. We will do what we can to help out.

kane.s2k

Good to be here. I am hoping I can be of some use while this forum will be of use to me.

NJTSXMan

I was surfing around the net looking for more info on the krank vents.
It seems that some people are reluctant about installing the larger krank vent on the breather side as it would eliminate the fresh air flow. Some people have opted to only install the small krank vent on the pcv side.

I found this link regarding the krank vents:

http://www.stealth316.com/2-krankvents.htm

kane.s2k

A major reason for fresh air flow into the crankcase is to get the acidic gases out of the crankcase which would lower the pH of the oil. However, many modern day high quality oils come with a large amount of pH buffers like potassium to maintain a balance in the oil. If you do your oil changes in the appropriet 3,000 to 3,500 milage intervals I see no reason why it would be a problem. However, I don't have any data to prove this and it is a very good point you have brought up. So that will be the next phase of testing I will put them through some oil analysis.

You can use the krank vent on just the PCV side and you will basically now have an actual workign PCV.

NJTSXMan

I'm curious... let's say i were to get the supercharger, I would be interested in installing the krank vent at the PCV side. I have attached two pics of the SC in a TSX.... (thanks in advance to Tsx536 and Steve457).. Where would the PCV hose be located and in which direction should the flow be going? Thanks

Tsx536

Actually when I asked Comptech about this they said that the PCV valve on the TSX is before the blower so the PCV valve will never see any boost.

They said it's the S2000's that have been having the problem with the PCV valve seeing boost.

kangjin

so, once again JT is right?

sho-one

hmm my dip stick never pops out under boost