Speculation & Theory: Will a 45 VTC advance with short header make gains?

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Old 05-04-2007, 02:05 PM
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Speculation & Theory: Will a 45 VTC advance with short header make gains?

I've been contemplating this for some time now. While it's well-known that a modded VTC with a race header will make unbelievable gains as proved by Shaang's dyno tests at Church, what about a VTC + short header?

Due to my "career needs" to keep my car stock-sounding/looking as possible, I'm not willing to have a loud exhaust note. I'm sure I'm not alone on this dillema. Therefore, my compromise to my never-ending quest of adding more power to the k24 has two options:
1. Keep shorty header
2. Change to Toda or Hytech header with added resonators

Option #2 will still cost over $2500 untuned. So, I'm wondering if I could "hypothetically" tune my setup with:
1. Comptech short header
2. Injen CAI
3. 45 VTC

For those who aren't familiar with the subject of cam advance, here's a little blurb from Hondata's website:
The biggest gift Honda has given to tuners of the K series engine is the VTC mechanism. Located on the end of the intake camshaft the VTC mechanism, via hydraulics allows 25 [crank] degrees of continuous movement on the TSX and 50 degrees on the RSX. For all you old school tuners lurking out there still changing the jets on your carburetors, who think you have to junk the VTC mechanism and go with a good old fashioned cam timing wheel, think again. In every naturally aspirated engine K20a and K24 engine we have tuned, the intake cam needs to be rotated through 25-30 degrees between peak torque and peak power. For emissions, the ability for Honda to rotate the cam to zero at idle to dial out all overlap makes for a very clean engine with no need for EGR. EGR porting is on place on the head but is blocked off.

25 degrees of cam movement is fine for a stock TSX engine but completely inadequate for modified engine with as little as race headers and intake. A stock engine needs no more than 20 degrees of cam moment on the high cam. A well modified setup needs no less than 25 degrees on the high cam. Take a good look at the modifications we made to the VTC mechanism. If you have a TSX you are going to need these changes. Although you could probably purchase and bolt on an RSX VTC mechanism for 50 degrees travel, there is less valve to piston clearance on the TSX pistons. Our measurements suggest 45 degrees maximum cam movement is much safer. Allowing the full 50 degrees movement leads to a greater risk of valve to piston contact should you accidentally mis-shift and over-rev.

So, do you guys think 45 degrees will make significant gains over the stock 25 degrees? Keep in mind that the stock RSX-S already comes with a VTC that can advance to 50.

rmpage usually has the most elaborate posts on the subject of cam advance.
Old 05-04-2007, 03:19 PM
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That's a good question... In my opinion, gains will be very minimal without longer runners on the header. Run it by Doug @ Hondata and he'll definately have an answer for you.
Old 05-04-2007, 05:38 PM
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LT headers and valve overlap are like peas and carrots.

Good question though. Doug is defintely equipped to answer regarding the specifics, since he wrote the reflash program to work with a shorty. You could also sniff around the RSX forums and see if anybody ran a shorty with a Kpro'd K24 and screwed around with a tune, then get their cam advance table and see where the advance is needed. That is if you haven't done so already.
Old 05-04-2007, 06:20 PM
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My question is, will the 45 degree VTC work wihtout a K-Pro? If the answer is YES, then we should able to use aftermarket intake/exhaust cam, as long as the size fit ?
Old 05-04-2007, 10:06 PM
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Anyone who is curious about how scavenging works with overlap and a long tube header may find this article interesting:

http://compcams.com/Community/Articl...?ID=1726205736

The blurb on scavenging is on page three. Also, this article caters to GM LS series V8s but it may give a newfound appreciation for how cool VTC is for somebody tuning a K series engine.
Old 05-06-2007, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by chuson
My question is, will the 45 degree VTC work wihtout a K-Pro? If the answer is YES, then we should able to use aftermarket intake/exhaust cam, as long as the size fit ?
The whole assumption is based on a setup tuned via k-pro.

rmpage - Thanks for the article. I'll check it out.
Old 05-07-2007, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rmpage
You could also sniff around the RSX forums and see if anybody ran a shorty with a Kpro'd K24 and screwed around with a tune, then get their cam advance table and see where the advance is needed. That is if you haven't done so already.
So far, this was the closest thing I could find to a stock K24A2 changing nothing except swapping a type-S VTC:


Not really sure what header he was running. When he say "custom 4-2-1," I assume it's a race header.

Here's the thread:
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24586
Old 05-07-2007, 06:30 PM
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I've just read the whole thread on the K20a forum, there's a lot of argument in between but this is what I gather...
Hotwheelz... thread starter.... mentioned..
In order for the TSX motor to run the K20 VTC... we need...
1) Aftermarket cams... since the OEM don't like high rpm above 6K+
2) Dual Valve spring... since it will help to avoid piston collison
3) K-Pro? I'm assuming this guy has his car tuned on that dyno.

If the final product we need is K-Pro, and we still don't have it, then it means we won't be able to take advantage of the K20 VTC then??
Old 05-07-2007, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Black_6spd
So far, this was the closest thing I could find to a stock K24A2 changing nothing except swapping a type-S VTC:


Not really sure what header he was running. When he say "custom 4-2-1," I assume it's a race header.

Here's the thread:
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24586
So, according to the chart, the performance took a dive after the mod?
Old 05-07-2007, 08:19 PM
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^^
I believe blue line is after the VTC swap, but yes, it has a dive around 3.5K - 4K rpm.
Old 05-07-2007, 08:24 PM
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Not according to the run file numbers. Dynojet automatically sequences the file numbers.
Old 05-07-2007, 08:48 PM
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^^^
If that so then you are right... you got me confused too. But how can the K20 VTC has produce less power than the our stock VTC? Since they have K-Pro, they should be benefit from the additional VTC angle? No?
Old 05-08-2007, 09:40 AM
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Better yet, why is he showing off a power loss on a public forum? Yeah, it is confusing.

Also the only things we need for a 45 degree VTC are a new intake cam mechanism and a Kpro. The other valvetrain upgrades are good for when you are running a more aggressive cam profile or raising the rev limit, but I can't see them being necessary just to advance/retard the cam. Maybe he wanted stiffer springs to close the valves faster so they don't kiss a piston at redline with a huge overlap.
Old 05-08-2007, 10:31 AM
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^^
That guy is a bit too cocky on the other site, so none of us can get more info from him.

NOOB Question: I know someone might have thought of already, but will it be possible to run a TSX ECU for whatever control we need, and also run a RSX ECU for our engine w/ K-Pro. That way we might not lose the VSA/AC/ABS blah blah blah function????
Old 05-08-2007, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by chuson
^^^
If that so then you are right... you got me confused too. But how can the K20 VTC has produce less power than the our stock VTC? Since they have K-Pro, they should be benefit from the additional VTC angle? No?
I don't think he intended to show/prove a power loss -- he and other posters keep referring to the dyno plot as "gains." Perhaps someone can de-code this gibberish:
the map that was posted used stock TSX basemap, in some area's it wants 30VTC where the machanical limits of the TSX VTC varies 1-2degree's i've seen the actuall TSX cam, go to 28degree on one datalog mostly would stick around 27 degree, your asking about stuff in 2004 I have the old dynochart from 2004, but the motor was new, and the TSX map didn't exist then. a different header was also used. so it's safe to assume pull away a couple hp, where the 30degree angles are, from the additional difference from the documented27 degree to 30 and it's pretty accurate, If you guys really wanted to know I could have locked it at 27 degree's instead of 30. But i wanted to show you guys the difference... so actually if you think about it... the TSX map, would have still been better than stock, because the stock VTC would have locked it sooner, so the results in difference would be greater. for the added 2-3 degrees only on the low cam.
Old 05-08-2007, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by chuson
NOOB Question: I know someone might have thought of already, but will it be possible to run a TSX ECU for whatever control we need, and also run a RSX ECU for our engine w/ K-Pro. That way we might not lose the VSA/AC/ABS blah blah blah function????
That's pretty much how ALL the K-pro's run on cars that aren't pre-'05 RSX-S's. The element, older civic, and even the new RSX's are set up that way. The good news for us is that another k24 in the family got it in the Honda Element.

The possible bad news for all the DBW models is the snag Hondata ran into while releasing the S2000 Kpro. The production date was supposed to be this month and has gotten bumped back into July or later.
Old 05-10-2007, 06:18 AM
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^ I am fully prepared to test this if people think it would work (if its compatible with my automatic tranny). If you buy a tsx ECU, KPRO it, and lose the AC, Gauges, and VSA, and then buy another stock ECU to run those functions, do you guys think this would work? If you are pretty sure, then im willing to be the test subject for it.
Old 05-10-2007, 09:46 AM
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Hondata Doug has been running that way for a while. He made a harness to work with two ecus....he doesn't offer it to the public though
Old 05-10-2007, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by TodaSi
Hondata Doug has been running that way for a while. He made a harness to work with two ecus....he doesn't offer it to the public though
A couple guys have also done this with the base RSX 5AT too. One Kpro'd ECU runs the engine, the stock ECU is retained to run the rest of the powertrain. Talk about a rat's nest of wiring. There have to be shops out there that would attempt such a venture given the right amount of time and funding (especially funding). I would love to see someone do this with a TSX, but it is unlikely given the exorbitant cost, and that most of us use our cars as daily drivers.

Originally Posted by crazybaboon6000
^ I am fully prepared to test this if people think it would work (if its compatible with my automatic tranny). If you buy a tsx ECU, KPRO it, and lose the AC, Gauges, and VSA, and then buy another stock ECU to run those functions, do you guys think this would work? If you are pretty sure, then im willing to be the test subject for it.
If you're serious about it, find a nearby shop that is reputed for doing good work with Hondas. Unless the wiring harness is a proprietary design that Hondata refuses to release the schematics for in order to protect their business interests, I can't imagine a reason why it would not be possible (and maybe even then). Be ready to spend tons of money just to get it tuneable, and then tons more on actual power adders once it is.
Old 05-10-2007, 11:43 AM
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My question is which ECU is linked to the immobilizer with the dual ECU setup? My guess is the K-Pro but needs confirmation. If in fact it's linked to the K-pro, it would require extra work to sync the key, immobilizer and the ECU.
Old 05-10-2007, 11:48 AM
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I wonder if i could use my 04 stock at ecu and 05 at hondata ecu haha....
Old 05-10-2007, 12:33 PM
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Well, if Hondata can disable our immobilizers (think KPro, or it appears they have done so on custom reflashes) then that's not really a problem.
Old 05-10-2007, 12:38 PM
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The K-pro has the ability to disable the immobilizer but I certainly wouldn't want to, as it's still pretty effective to prevent the car from easily stolen.
Old 05-10-2007, 01:28 PM
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^^ While I don't understand it, it looks like you can maintain some of the immobilizer functionality:
http://www.hondata.com/immobilizer.html

As far as additional/replacement parts goes, be prepared for a laundry list of other items such as speedo sensor and O2 sensor that will have to be swapped out for our version.
Old 05-10-2007, 01:36 PM
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For starters:

The primary oxygen sensor from the 02-04 RSX or 02-05 Civic Si part number 36531-PRB-A01 must be used. The 03-06 Element O2 sensor will not work.
OBD2 must be disabled to eliminate errors generated by the ECU looking for emissions items that the 03-06 Element does not have.
The speed sensor spins about 100 times faster on the Element MT gearbox as compared to the 02-04 RSX. Above 65-70 MPH cruise control may not function smoothly and may cancel from time to time. Also see Tech - K20 Transmissions
Hondata makes hardware modifications to a donor 2002-2004 K series ECU (see below) to enable it to work with the different sensors and actuators found on the 2003-2006 Element. After these modifications the ECU will not function correctly on a 2002-2004 RSX.
In addition to these, I wonder if our VSA system would be dumped due to no feedback from the RSX-S ecu. Throttle input doesn't care if it thinks your wheels are slipping or not.

I guess the possible good news for me is that I already have the RSX-S tranny and the speedo gear will spin at the same speed.
Old 05-10-2007, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Black_6spd
^^ While I don't understand it, it looks like you can maintain some of the immobilizer functionality:
http://www.hondata.com/immobilizer.html
You can't maintain the immobilizer function if the components are not synced. The main function of the immobilizer is to disable the main relay to cut power to the fuel pump. The engine will start if the immobilizer option is disabled in the K-pro (components not synced) or have Honda sync the components. That's the extra steps I was referring to. However, disabling the immobilizer option will allow you to drive to the dealer to get the work done as indicated in the Hondata instructions.
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