iceman2cuol4u

Well,
I just realized something.
This should be true for anyone living north of Ohio all the way to the Canadian north.
Everyone say that the 330i is faster than the TSX (and it is, i'm not disputing that).
However, if i was to get a BMW, I would have to get the 4wd XI model, because RWD in the snow sucks.
The 300 XI goes 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, .3 seconds slower than the front drive (adequate for snow driving) TSX.
Well, just thought i'd put it out there, for those who are thinking about peformance.

biker

Put good snow tires on the regular 330 and it will do better in the snow that the TSX with stock tires!

BTW, I've yet to hear anyone race in the snow - so the whole issue is meanigless.

Bozz

I live in Ottawa and I agree with you 100%. RWD is out of question for me in snowy winters.

biker

This is scary - I'm starting to sound like glibo!

biker

You make it sound like driving a RWD car in the snow belt is some sort death wish.

Like I said, put good snow tires on any RWD car and it will do just fine - better than most all-season equiped FWD cars.

picker

That is simply a bogus statment. 2 guys at my work have Bmws. And this winter they did nothing but bitch and moan how much they hate rwd in snow. ANd yes they have snow tires. I even drove their cars to see how it was myself. Not even close to the tsx.

iceman2cuol4u

I know you wouldn't race in winter, but, if i had to buy a BMW, i would have to get 4wd for winter, therefore, it would still be slower than the tsx in summer as well. Thats all i meant.

biker

And I guess those two guys will trade in their BMWs for FWD cars right?

Maybe the TSX is the exception. There was a review not long ago with facts that listed car handling capability in snow depending on layout and tires. The order is (best to worst):

AWD w/snow tires
FWD W/snow tires
RWD w/snow tires
AWD w/all seasons
FWD w/all seasons
RWD w/all seasons

And this was for initial traction (which is fairly important in snow). Once moving, as is the case in the dry, RWD is better than AWD on the same platform (due less weight).

A lot of this depends on the driver also. Around here the FWD myth in snow is ignored when buying a car (although like Vermont, there are a lot of Subarus up in the mountains). We get our share of snow here but you just don't see many people stuck like you do in the US because people are prepared and know how to drive.

biker

What did people do 30 years ago when there were virtually no FWD cars?

They all drove RWD cars!

My dad had a '74 Fiat (FWD) that sucked in snow compared to the snow tire equiped '70 Olds Cutlass.

And with traction control and VDC you'll see a lot more RWD cars around in the future.

biker

See what you made me do?

I'm turning this into another PW thread!

picker

Exactly what does what I said have to do with wanting to trade in for FWD cars? It's to do with FWD is superior to RWD in snow.

The guys I work with aren't insecure like the majority of bmw lovers are on this board. They love my car and I love their car. I have noticed that alot of bmw owners arent the elitist doofers that radical posters on message boards make them out to be.

biker

Well you said they bitch a lot about them in the snow and how great yours is.

It's tough to outgrow a stereotype.

Radical posters? Hmmm... who would that be on here?

JeffTSX

My brother had a 01' 323i. And here in Toronto, some times the snow could get pretty nasty. He didn't have snow tires for the first winter and it was fine. I guess the traction control helped??

Helicobacter Pylori

No need to fight over this issue, cuz IT'S ALL ABOUT SNOW TIRE.

Putting on those metal spike snow tires you see on WRC cars, and take a Lamborghini Diablo out shoveling your neighbourhood.

I remember there was once an ass kicking RWD Lancia rally car in the past...

FWD is not superior. It's just less likely to oversteer...

gilboman

you seem to be confused... FWD is not Superior in snow to RWD

it is superior to RWD in snow with equal tires during INITIAL movement, meaning when you go from a stop to movement. once you get going, in a RWD, the weight shifts to the drive wheels and you get more grip on the drive wheels. and as the poster above mentioned, FWD will less likely to oversteer.

so both RWD and FWD have their advantages in snow. there is no clear "better" drivetrain layout for snow btwn RWD and FWD. It all comes down to snow tires.... with a decent set of snowtires, either Layout is fine.

Dan Martin

Add me to the group that would prefer RWD with snows to FWD with all seasons.

fdl

as much as i hate to agree with gilboman, he is pretty much correct here.

bob shiftright

I thought that Car and Driver had tested all possible combinations of FWD, RWD, AWD with and without snow tires and killed any reason for this argument, forever.

Click. Click! CLICK!

Also, I thought the 330xi is quicker than the 2WD 330i (except the 330i with the Performance Package) because the gearing is shorter and compensates for the frictional losses of the AWD system and the added weight.

fdl

Maybe I missed something but that link only seems to compare rwd with awd. There was no fwd in the test. But the fact that rwd with snows beats awd with all season may be enough to prove the point.

bob shiftright

They also tested the FWD version of the Audi A6. The red graph line on winter tires, the yellow graph line on stock tires. there are 8 (eight) possible combinations and 8 graph lines.

The idea (I thought) was to compare cars available in both RWD and AWD as well as FWD and AWD configurations.

Dan Martin

Thanks Bob, I remembered reading that article but I couldn't find it the last time this arguement came up.

bob shiftright

The other point that I come away with is that AWD may do a fine job of getting you into trouble, but it's snow tires that keep you out of trouble.

fdl

Woops. Missed that..i saw a6 and assumed awd Good article and def proves the point.

I think one can argue that tires are the most important component of a car..in any situation. After all, its the only part of the car thats touches the road.

Even without these results though..if we just think logically...what would make a rwd car any worse in snow when braking or turning, or any situation where your foot is not on the gas?

biker

I wonder if all this FWD is better in the snow myth was started by FWD model makers to lure away sales from RWD cars?

Bottom line: if you live in the snow belt get yourself a set of snow tires and know what you're doing!

Dan Martin

Exactly fdl.

Last winter was the first winter I have gone through without winter tires and I swear it will be my last. I don't even like all seasons in the summer. I wish Acura offered a performance tire package for the car because I would have jumped at it. But as it is now, I'm going to wear out the all seasons this summer and replace them next year. Snows are going on for sure this winter.

KingV

yeah, the stock tires blow ass in all situations. I was living in FL this winter, so I wasn't worried about snow, but they definitely are sub-optimal for just driving around town. I don't even drive my car that hard and I still accidentally hop the wheels occasionally off the line.

majormojo

Excellent point. People don't get into accidents in snow because they can't accelerate fast enough, they get into accidents because they can't stop fast enough. Tires and f/r weight balance are really more critical than fwd/rwd IMO.

That being said, the typical FWD gradual slide into understeer is generally a lot less intimidating for a lot of drivers (esp those w/ little experience in RWD cars) than a rear end that rapidly ("suddenly"?) breaks loose into oversteer. In addition, the natural panic reaction of getting off the gas quickly is an appropriate corrective measure for fwd understeer. That alone probably saves a lot of inexperienced drivers from getting into trouble on slippery roads.

MrChad

I live in NE Ohio, land of too much snow.
My winter beater is a 97 2WD S10 base model, now it's hard to find a worse vehical for winter snow. (But they are cheap as all get so $$$ is the rule of the beater.) I slap luggers on the rear and go to town. I don't drive like Collen McKree (ok sometimes I do) and life works out fine. I don't have TSC, VDC, or ABS or anything.

With that said, it is easier to drive the wife's Eclipse in the snow, but I think it has more to do with the front wheels both driving and turning the car + having the engine weight all over the wheels. It just feels easier to control as a novice driver.

Tire technology is so good now I don't see how anyone could suffer in the winter regardless of drivetrain.

Now if you have a TSX as the winter ride you are missing out on the best part of snow, power oversteer--hand brake my @$$ nothing beats fresh snow and steering with your right foot!

Bottom line snow sucks by Blizzaks and move on buy the car you want to drive the most...get the bimmer if you like it better...snow wouldn't stop me from buying RWD.