patbrass

I am currently in the market of buying a sport sedan in the 25k-35k range...MT is the only transmission that I consider. I also want a nice navigation system.

Here are the choices that I consider (in order):

1) Acura TSX w/ Nav (~28,500)

Love it! Size is perfect, handling too. Just misses a few HP (and more torque) to make it a no-brainer for me...

2) Mazda 6s w/Sport Package (~23,500)

Was my choice #1 before I saw the TSX. I know that the interior looks cheaper than the TSX but is nice enough for me. Engine is great (even if it's a ford). No navigation available.

3) Audi A4 1.8T Quattro w/Sport package (~34,000)

Very nice. Navigation sucks. AWD is definitly a plus.

4) BMW 325i w/comparable equipment of TSX (~36,000)

Expensive but great car, but a bit too small for my needs (trunk and rear places). Also will be replaced next year. I'd love the handling of a RWD though.

Others: G35 (wife says it's too big), S60 (Volvo still has difficulties to build fun-to-drive cars), 9-3 (Nice, but not for me), Maxima (are you kidding?), Grand Prix GTP (Over my dead body)

- So, in term of fun-to-drive factor, how the TSX, A4 and Mazda 6 compare?
- Does the TSX really worth 5k more than the Mazda 6?
- Should I spend 5k more and go with the A4 AWD?

Any comments are more than welcome!

--------------------------------------------------
Almost 04 CG/Ebony 6MT w/NAV...but...

DjElucid

THE G35 would be nice if you could go for the coupe. Before I went for my TSX I test drove the Mazda6, simply because it was cheaper and a V6, hated it. I think the only other car I would consider is the A4, but it's a lot of money for the same thing you get in a TSX, unless you like the body of the A4 more. There are a lot of A4s out there, so your car wouldn't really stand out, not saying there aren't a lot of TSX out there, but at least not for now. BMW, even more on the road!

Yes this site is biased!

fdl

Alot of people may disagree with me but I feel the M6 is a sportier car. The steering in the M6 is much better than the TSX..and the M6 also sits much lower which I think adds to the sporty "feel" of it. Handling numbers between the 2 will probably be close, but the M6 "Feels" sportier to me mainly for the reasons above. The M6 is also slightly faster (but not by much).

On the other hand the TSX has that sweet 6 speed tranny which is much nicer than the M6's 5 speed (if you are into rowing your own gears). Interior wise, fit and finish wise, luxury features, build quality, all go to the TSX for sure. Projected reliability is also in the favour of the TSX.

Both cars are very very similar, but I give the M6 a slight advantage on the sportiness side, and the TSX a definate advantage on the luxury side. The TSX is just a nicer more balanced car. However, if you dont want to spend as much money, and dont mind a car thats a little rough around the edges...the M6 is a nice ride.

jcg878

I will agree with this. I'd say the M6 is a little bit sportier and a little racier looking, but I didn't like the interior and it was not as refined of a car overall as the TSX. I think it's a steal of a car for the price, but after driving both I knew that the TSX was for me. I'm surprised there aren't more of them out on the road. Perhaps with the glut of uninspiring family cars out there (Camrys et al) Mazda misread the values that Americans look for in family sedans?

I wasn't impressed with the engine of the M6, but I looked at ATs. What impressed you about it, pat?

Is ecsw around?? He's owned both cars.

dom

- Does the TSX really worth 5k more than the Mazda 6?

We all seem to think so, or we would'nt be here

It does'nt say anything in your post about having test driven either of the cars. If you hav'nt go do it and that alone should be what makes your decesion.

Well that and the fact that the TSX will be more reliable, retain better resale value, is better built, has a better interior, puts down almost as much power as the M6 on the dyno's, will have much bigger aftermarket support, has more top end power, has better fuel consumption and like fdl said has a far superior MT tranny, which is what you want.

But you may prefer the looks of the M6 and prefer the low end tourque advantage and you may like the fact that your saving a few K.

Easy call though IMO.

majormojo

Here's a couple of threads that had some good comments on the Mazda 6 vs TSX.

http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...&threadid=1961

http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...&threadid=2513

When I was car shopping I looked at some of the same cars you have. Here's my write-up on how I selected the TSX (also doubles as my entry in the "longest post" contest).

http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...&threadid=1931

darth62

Anoter point to consider; The residual for the TSX is about 10 points higher than the residual for the M6. Unless you keep the M6 a long time, the TSX will likely have a lower cost to own because it hold value so well. The residual on the M6 is painfully low (less than .50 - meaning it loose over 50% of it's value in just three years).

jumpper

1st choice: 2004 TL ($35k)
2nd choice: 2004 TSX ($29k)

If you want a nice navi system, no one is nicer than Honda/Acura. My brother's 325i has navi, and it sucks! (even he said so).

patbrass

Totally agree with that. I was already almost sold to the TSX, but with the preceding arguments, I am ready to commit myself and go ahead with the TSX!

Now hopefully I'll be able to find a GC/Ebony 6MT w/Nav around for MSRP or less.

Thank you all.

patbrass

Cool. A lot of interesting reading!

Thanks

darth62

Patbrass, I love my TSX and would pick it over the M6 anyday of the week (although I'm not sure I'd take it over the new TL!). But, do youself a favor, and go visit a M6 board and ask them what they think. We all love our TSX's, but go talk to somebody who loves his/her M6 and see what they say.

Count Blah

Here's the Mazda6 forum. I hung out there a lot and almost bought a 6s MT w/sport. But then I saw the TSX.
http://www.mazda6club.com/forums

Also, you ask "Does the TSX really worth 5k more than the Mazda 6?" Without nav, there's only about a 3k difference per your numbers. So be sure to make a fair comparison.

patbrass

You are right for the 3k difference. I'll definitly take a look at the M6 forum. Just curious!

darth62

3 k diff evaporates really quickly. The difference in resale values over a three year period is more than 10%. So, the cost of ownership, before you get to the issue of frequency of repair, favors the Acura.

ecsw

As a formal M6 owner, I have to say, go test drive a M6 and u will know.

fdl is correct. In Fact, I found M6 is amazing in handling. Don't get me wrong though, TSX is very nice too. But it's just when you drive in both car, M6 handles a bit spotier than TSX but TSX beats M6 for interior design in every corner.

I am working on my own experience of owning both cars and I will post it up soon.

Yap, I still hang out in Mazda6club since i made a lot of friends from there and I am a high post member there too :P . And no, I didn't trade-in my M6 for TSX. It's just that my wife totaled my M6 so I went for TSX which I also like a lot.

wishiwere

??? How do you know the resale value in 3 years? Been calling madam Cleo?

I'm just kidding around, but seriously, lease residuals do not equal resale value, espeically on brand new models. All they are is a guaranteed value the bank will sell you the car for at the end of the lease. It is true that a higher predicted resale value will lead to a higher residual, but it's really just a prediction, and it's not the only factor that goes into setting the residual. When a brand new model is released, it is almost impossible to accurately predict the resale value in the future...things such as recalls, rebates/incentives, poor sales, etc. can all have negative affects on the resale value, and they really can't be predicted at the outset (and not having these problems can have a positive affect). Additionally, residuals are played with a lot to get a target monthly lease payment. It is not uncommon at all for residuals to be made artificially higher or lower to get the payments down to a level where the cars can be moved quickly. I'm not saying the tsx won't have a better resale value than the mazda6, but I wouldn't make statements like the tsx will have 10% better resale in 3 years just because the residuals differe by that much. Just like the stock market, past performance is not an indicator of the future...strong sales of the mazda6, along with strong sales of the upcoming mazda3, will probably have a positive affect on the resale value of mazdas across the board. Additionally, if transmission problems or whatever were to arise on the tsx (not that I expect them to, but they could), you will see the resale value drop a lot and quickly. Finally, enhancements to future tsx's (ie, if they bump up the engine output or add some features like memory seats) could hurt the '04's resale values. Anyways, I guess I babbled on for a while there, but my main point is, don't assume that lease residuals = resale value -> use them as a hint of what the future may bring, but don't treat them as fact.

darth62

Fair enough.

That is a thoughtful post, by the way, and I appreciate the perspective.

combustible1

If Navi is a must, then you must choose the TSX, as it isn't available in North America on the Mazda 6.

I would agree with those that have said the 6 is a bit better handler and the sportier car of the two.

Other Mazda positives that haven't been mentioned yet:

It's braking blows away the TSXs, both in stopping distance and it's inclusion of EBD.

The 6 also has brake-away foot pedals, an added safety feature that people tend to overlook, but can be quite valuable in a head-on collision.

Also, the 6 has better trunk space and a lot more convenient fold down trunk release.

The Mazda should be reliable (it's been around for a couple of years worldwide, with good marks for reliability so far) if not quite up to Acura standards. But factoring in Acuras higher cost of repair, that slight advantage may even out in the end.

Insurance should also be cheaper on the 6 (a few hundred per year; at least that's been the average I've been quoted by a few insurance companies).

oh, and in a rear bumper test, the 6 came out with the least expensive repair cost/least damage of the cars tested.

Some TSX positives not already mentioned in this thread:

folding mirrors, turn signals on mirrors, rear seat headrests, HIDs, cool ambient blue interior lights.

darth62

I'm not as confident about the 6's reliability as you, because the 6 has a Ford-built engine. Also, if you look at CR, vehicles built in that Flint factory have had only average reliability.

TSX also comes with VSA,and the M6 only with traction control.

Have we mentioned that the 6 has heated mirrors and the TSX does not?

combustible1

excellent points darth62, and I forgot to mention the VSA of the TSX. good catch.

Btw, heated mirrors is optional on the 6, not standard (but I know, at least it's an option).

About the Ford engine.. it's been modified quite a bit by Mazda, but I don't know enough about engines and engine reliability to know whether the changes they've made would make much of a difference. Then again, I think I've read that this particular Ford engine has been pretty reliable over the years, so even if Mazda hadn't made changes, it would still be ok.

majormojo

This reminds me of something I noticed when test driving a 6 with heated mirrors. The driver-side mirror was kind of "wavy". That is, not quite optically correct, kind of like really old glass panes. I guessed it might have to do with the heating elements behind the reflective surface. Anyway, it was just one of those little things that made me feel better about the TSX.

I've owned a couple Mazdas in the past (a B2000 pickup and an RX-7) and don't really have much worry about their reliability. Bottom line is that it's a lot harder today to buy a bad car than it is a good one.

Plus I shouldn't forget to note that the Canadian TSX has the heated mirrors.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

Bottom line:

Toss them both around some turns, floor them, just cruise, and decided which one you LIKE best.

Then try to take into account how much each one will REALLY cost with options, financing, and depreciation.

Odds are the TSX will be equal of very close in overall "cost" (not price) to the Mazda 6s.

Then your decision is easy.

patbrass

I'll do that for sure! I remember, back in '97, when I test drove a Prelude. When entering an highway, I floored it and hit redline in 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear. Even at almost 140 mph, the salesman didn't say anything...not sure if he was scared or not. Anyway I bought it and had 3 years of great fun with that car!

TSXautoXer

TSX is more refine in chassis tuning. M6 is sportier but crude. I picked TSX over M6 because of this.

gilboman

TSX is more refined/smooth...M6 is more sporty... but if prices were similar i may lean for TSX eventhough i find the M6 styling much more appealing....but a nice interior is important.

combustible1

In what way? I've read that Mazda put a lot of effort into their chassis design too.

dom

I have no way of comfirming this, but from what I have heard over the years is that Mazda's repair costs are alot higher than Honda's, parts especially. Will there be a slight premium of parts costs for Acura? maybe but its still an Accord. Does anyone have any experience with Mazda service and repair costs?

Good point about braking BTW. I think the consesus is the TSX is weaker than it should be in the braking department and the M6 has it easily beat there.

Gilboman actually saying he would buy the TSX over another car!!!! I almost fell out of my chair when I read that

TSXinCA

Personally, I think the Mazda 6 looks and feels kinda cheap. It has more power than the TSX but is not as refined. The interior materials are not as high quality as the TSX either.

YBA

I got heated mirrors On the other hand, I'm in Canada

darth62

I have to disagree with those of you who argue that the M6 is "sportier." In my opinion, there is less body roll and better road handling in the TSX. The only aspect of handling that is really superior in the M6 is the road feel (much better feedback than the numb TSX).

Also, in regard to power, if you look at Automobile's acceleration numbers, the M6 was a little less than a second quicker 0-60. But, the TSX clobbered the M6 in passing speeds, doing 30 -70 in 1.2 seconds quicker. So, at the speeds where you really need power, the TSX will actually offer better performance than the M6.

majormojo

Well, I have to disagree with that. It felt to me that the Mazda 6 cornered flatter than the TSX and had less brake dive. When cornering at the limit, the TSX pushes into understeer sooner than the 6. The 6 doesn't have 'kick out the tail' oversteer of course, but the feeling is a pretty balanced (f/r) slide. I think the Mazda chassis engineers really nailed it.

The lower seating position, cowl, beltline and trunk on the 6 give a "sportier" feel too, IMO.

Regarding the power of the 6, I think it does feel stronger in some circumstances, but overall it is harder to drive smoothly. The TSX clearly has the superior gearbox/clutch setup.

It was the overall smoothness of the TSX that impressed me more than anything. I don't actually spend that much time pushing the car at 9/10 in the corners (who does?) and the TSX is just a nicer place to be for day-to-day driving.

mrdoug

Well, I'll throw in my 2 cents for what it's worth (2 cents or less). I like the looks of the TSX better - some have said more refined, which I agree with, although I can understand those who say the 6 looks "sportier." It's a sporty looking car but lacks some sophistication that the TSX gives off I think. The interior of the TSX, I agree, beats the pants off the 6. Obviously, the price favors the 6, although IMO the slightly lesser price reflects a slightly lesser car overall. As for Mazda products and service in general, this is my experience and what I hear: My last car (inherited from my wife when she needed a family-transport vehicle) was a 626 A/T (my TSX is a 6 MT - I don't like AT's - see the manny tranny thread). The transmission was built by Ford and sucked - problems galore, and that was the reason I finally had to dump the car (I was salivating over that day!). On top of that the Mazda service at THREE different dealership sucked even worse than the tran - they even dropped it once and didn't tell me until I came back with grinding noises the same day they gave the car back to me "fixed" (but with the check engine light on)! Also, my brother in law is a car mechanic, works on mostly foreign cars like Audis BMWs MB's etc but others as well, and he tells me that in his experience Mazdas have a lot more problems than Honda or Toyota products. Audis have more problems, too, and are very expensive to fix. Bottom line for me: although other than the transmission (by Ford) the car was pretty good and I drove it to 140K w/o other major problems, I will not buy another Mazda for 2 reasons: (1) don't like Ford products, especially transmissions; and (2) had multiple very bad experiences with Mazda service at multiple dealerships.
So was that worth 2 cents? Or less?

TSXautoXer

I test drove M6 and also autox it in Mazda Rev It up. The suspension tuning is stiff, which is fine, but the body structure transmit all the thumps through to the cabin with a lot more than one desires.
Cornering performance wise, both M6 and TSX are about on par. But you feel 'faster' in M6 because of the sound, vibration and all. TSX is 'calmer' in comparison. The suspension didn't make any sound, and the body absorbs the irregularities on the road without too much noise.

For more feedback on TSX (steering wise), replace the tires. That helps a whole lot.

ecsw

I am not sure about M6 in US, but in Canada, even with the base model Mazda6 HAS TCS, EBD, HEATED MIRROR. VSA is just a fancy name of TCS, isn't it?

TSXautoXer

No, TCS stands for Traction Control System. VSA stands for Vehicle Stability Assist. Traction control prevents drive wheels from skidding. And I think most of these system works only below certain speed (40mph). Whereas VSA will sense the wheel spee of each wheel, calculate the vehicle skid angle, and apply brakes on individual wheels to keep the car on intended path. TCS function is therefore included in VSA.

darth62

Well, one thing is clear, the brake dive is a much more significant issue in the TSX.

ecsw

That sounds like EBD isn't it? If it is, EBD is including in M6 as well.

darth62

No, EBD changes the brakeforce applied to different wheels depending of vehicle load. It don'st have anything to do with wheel spin or yaw.

SilverCL225hp

Just want to clarify something. G35 sedan is 0.3" shorter and 1.1" narrower than Mazda 6. It just looks bigger probably because of the thicker front and higher trunk.

patbrass

Good point. And for sure it looks bigger (or at least bulkier). Another thing that keeps me away from the G35 is that the sedan 6MT is as rare as pope's shit!