Jottle

This always confused me. Loaner cars from the dealership are supposed to be sucky rides, but all the loaner tsx's I've had when my 06 has been in the shop have always driven just a little bit better than my car! Makes no sense. Here's my latest experience. I was hoping some of you on here may be able to explain this. It is definitely NOT some subjective thing.

So I have a bone stock '06 with 15,000 miles. I got an '08 loaner with 15,000 miles on it. Same engine, same exact crappy Michelin pilot tires with presumably the same wear.

My loaner '08 tsx not only rides more comfortably and definitely has less road noise coming from the tires, but the car actually shifts more smoothly and the gas pedal is smoother than my '06. How can I explain this occurence?

1. The gas pedal working more smoothly and effortlessly is a weird one since there's no throttle cable. Essentially, the '08 pedal is easier to push and the engine switches between gears much more smoothly.

2. Tires. Maybe my tires have worn differently and that's what makes the ride quality in my car worse and louder. Could this possibly happen? How much difference do new tires make in the feeling of bumps and dips in the road, going over dividers in the highway etc? The '08 loaner is definitely quieter in this respect. I actually like the slightly softer suspension feeling.

3. Is there some slight sound dampening and engine tweeks that weren't publicly anounced since '06 perhaps? I'm positive that the 08 drives better than my 06. My 06 is at the dealership right now, and they didn't see anything wrong with the engine. I also just had an oil change, so no issues there.

It's just sad that a loaner could drive better than my car which I've babied so dearly What do you all think? The loaner is two years newer, but both cars have the exact same amount of mileage on them. I really can't figure out why the loaner shifts smoother (gear changes are less notieable on the highway and it's easier to module/maintain a given speed)

darowa

(1) There is still a cable being operated by the accelerator. It just doesn't lead to the engine. It's connected to a transducer (mounted on the passenger side of the firewall - engine side) that converts your pedal movements into electrical signals. Maybe there's a lubrication issue of the cable or spring?
(2) Inflation pressure of the tires? Were they similar? The second issue can be tire wear. If your tires are worn in some pattern then they might be noisier than the tires on the loaner.
(3) There could be differences between 06 and 08. That's the reason they have model years. Some (unannounced) changes happen between years. Some are so esoteric that they are not easily described.

And finally, sometimes *different* is not *better*. Are you sure you're just experiencing something different?

Jottle

Thanks for the reply. I actually called the dealership to have them check the accelerator pedal for extra resistance etc.
-As for the tire pressure, that may have been the case. The tpms sensor on the 08 says that they're at 27 (which is pretty low). I run my car at 30-32. I'd prefer not to take an mpg hit, but 27 may be much more comfortable but close to under inflation.
-From what I've gathered, the only announced changes from 06-08 are the tpms sensor. Also, the 07-08 models have a different design for the rearview mirror.
-as for different not being better..this 08 is a better ride and better performing car (acceleration/power wise) than mine

darowa

27 psi is low. I don't know the recommendations for a 2006 or 2008. I have a 2005 and its 32 front/30 rear. I would stick to the recommendations. Tire pressure recommendations come out of a number of factors safety/ride/mileage/wear/handling/tire size. Factory engineers are much better equipped to evaluate all these and come up with an optimum number.

One reason the front pressure is higher than the rear is because it is a front-wheel drive car. Also there is more weight on the front than the rear. Remember, your car touches the ground in 4 small contact-patches and tire pressure affects those patches.

TSXFL

Does the TSX have an adaptive (learning) transmission?

JimHolloman

Contrary to what you think, some of it is subjective. It is every subjective in my own car. My wife and I were coming back from a trip Sat. night and we both commented Sunday morning that the car was beating us to death -- on the same roads we have traveled many times. I told her that there was probably too much air pressure in the tires. Well, I checked the air pressure and it was right on. When I am tired, the car rides much rougher than when I am not tired -- meaning it always rides more harsh at the end of a long trip than at the beginning of a long trip. It is not a Toyota or a Lexus -- you get to feel the road.

The other thing is that we tend to be much more critical of what we own than what we don't own. I would hardly notice something on a loaner that would bother me on my car -- whether it was a scratched wheel or shifting that is not smooth. IOW, the loaner is held to a lower standard; not by intent, but by human nature.

But, with that said, the TSX apparently does adapt somewhat to one's driving style. I read such an assertion somewhere, but don't recall where. How that would effect shifting -- I don't know.

However, here is an experiment. Get on a smooth road with at least a 60 MPH speed limit and with limited traffic. Switch to Sport-Shift. From a standing start, push the throttle all the way down and then up shift at around 4k-6k RPM's. Do not let up on the throttle until you reach 65 MPH. Do this for at least three times and make a mental note of the shifting (smooth or rough). Then switch to automatic and do it three times again. Is the shifting smooth or rough?

You might consider driving in sport mode for a couple of weeks and see if that has any effect on the shifting in automatic mode. While in sport mode, do not let up on the throttle to shift. Let up on the throttle only when you reach the desired speed. It is the reverse of what many people do when driving an automatic; relaxing the throttle a little to trigger a shift.

davidspalding

If your 2006 model (when did it enter service?) has only 15,000 miles on it, you are putting damned little miles on it. You might want to have the dealer do more than just the scheduled maintenance. Like, last night I noted (AFTER having dealer service done, duh) that power steering fluid should be changed every 3 years. Other things need to be attended to.

(E.g. my gf's 2002 Echo has only 21,000 miles. At something like 7500, or 15,000, a previous owner had it serviced at the dealer, and the records show the dealer actually drained, flushed, drained, and refilled oil, clearly to remove any sludge.)

You might want other things flushed and refilled too. Suggestions from other TSXers?

The ECU DOES adapt (if what I've read here is true) to your driving style, shift points particularly. To reset, disconnect battery for a few minutes. Have your radio/NAVI code handy to unlock.

Jim, what you describe (the "no sleep until 65MPH" in auto), I do from time to time to put a big smile on my face. Love this 5AT.

davidspalding

Oh, if it's like most loaners, it's probably driven sort of "too fast, too furious." the ECU no doubt has "adapted" to the last few drivers' hellbent style. Trying Jim's tactic with your own may open your eyes.

Jottle

I guess I'll have to see how my car feels when I get it back this week, but I actually have disconnected my battery recently and I didn't notice a change in the shift points etc. As for not having many miles, I bought my car with only 10,000 miles CPO at the end of 08. Good deal for sure. The lady who owned it before me probably barely drove it at all. However, I've driven it enough since then to at least affect the ECU. It may be the low air pressure in the tires that explains the ride (I plan to switch to comfortable Avid V4S's soon), but not the quality of shifting and smoothness of the acceleration. Maybe I should try out driving like a madman on some open roads. God knows that's safe..

EDIT: dealership mentioned slightly dark brake fluid and some "buildup on the throttle body?", but nothing that needs to be drained/flushed before stated 3 year interval. I may try lower pressure in my tires at the expense of mpg. I just really like the ride. It's almost as if the shocks are better. I'm sure my car's suspension is fine, but the loaner just has it more under control when it comes to road bumps that I'm very familiar with. The car doesn't snap and hit the bumps nearly as hard or with as much noise.

kanonen

of course it should ride better. You have a 3 years old car and the loaner is 1 year old or less. Surely the millage is the same, but time related wear does make a difference.

Itchytoe

And the air pressure in the tires of the loaner are probably still set from the factory which is usually around 28. Lower air pressure uses a little more fuel, but makes the ride much more comfortable. If it feels more responsive, it's probably because you're used to the comfortable ride so when it gets a little harsher, it feels like alot more than it really is. You also have a car that's a year old, so of course, even with the same mileage, the suspension will be in much better shape.

Jottle

Yes of course. But "wear" on what exactly? The engine? Should a one year old car that's been driven aggressively really function more smoothly than a 3 year old car that's had immaculate care?

JimHolloman

I don't know if it should or not -- but it does happen. When my wife had a GrandAm, she would never hit WOT (wide open throttle) or push the car hard. It would start getting sluggish, acting if it had less power, and not run, nor idle, as smoothly as it could. I would take it out on an open road and hit WOT several times and drive it hard for about 30 minutes . You could see a bunch of black smoke coming out of the exhaust. It would then run better for about a month. I presume that the plugs were getting fouled, but an inspection of the plugs would indicate the proper temperature range.

When flying a small aircraft, part of the preflight is to check RPM's with one magneto and then with the other. If they are not close, you lean the fuel mixture, apply the brakes firmly, and rev the engine -- apparently burning carbon off one, or more, of the spark plugs (each cylinder has two spark plugs).

With a car that has an adaptive ECU, treating the car with TLC just might cause the ECU to adapt conservative parameters that would restrict the ability of the engine to respond to being pushed for all that's it's worth -- but, I don't know.

Treating an engine with TLC does not always guarantee the best engine. There are some experts that advocate stomping on the throttle on a new engine (but, I would give it at least 300 miles) in order to seat the rings properly.

One interesting experience was when model airplane engines with ABC construction were introduced. Everyone was accustomed to treating a new engine with TLC. If you treated an ABC engine with TLC, you would ruin it. You had to lean it out and let it scream a little and build up heat rather quickly because of the very tight fit. Under temperature, the cylinder would expand faster than the piston, causing the fit to loosen up.

davidspalding

As part of my dealer maintenance Monday, they "reset pressures" to recommended 32 psi (have to check later while they're cold) as part of the rotation. Guess what ... MUCH smoother ride, potholes and known bumps that I drive over every day (no, I avoid potholes) are much more subdued. I might leave them at 32, but if mileage shows a little drop, I'll put 'em back to 34 like I had 'em. Have to remember to ask them to use that setting next time.
Could be. Jottle, why doncha check the tire pressures before driving (i.e cold tire pressure reading).

Haha, I remember doing that with my dad every time we flew, before taking the runway (only a-holes do that on the taxiway near the parking ramp). I remember one time, my Dad asking me (because it was an extreme over the shoulder reach in the Citabria) to kill one magneto, then "okay, now the other." I dutifully switched off the other without switching the first back on. D'oh! But we recovered in time and had the usual rip-roaring fun akro flight in the California sunshine. (I seem to recall it's also to check the WOT setting before taking the active runway ... on takeoff or "in the pattern" is too late to find out the engine ain't reaching full power. )

I had a few opportunities in the CG to assist engine mechs do this in the Falcon (Falcon 20 with bigger Garrett ATF-3-6 engines) in a designated engine run area. What fun.... And no one knows WOT until you've done this in a jet aircraft, max power, at altitude, to "buster" to a "commence search point" or intercept zone. Talk about "y'hear me, baby, hold together."

Jottle

When I get my car back, I'm going to lower the psi and see if that changes the ride quality significantly. I always run my tires at the recommended 32/30, but if a few psi below that makes that much difference, I think I'll take the fuel hit! Some people on the forum run their tires at something like 36. I can't imagine how rough that would feel.

kanonen

Sure, why not, slightly but definitely there is a wear, how significant, i don't know. But I was mainly thinking about suspensions, chassis and the different bolts in the car...things get loose...the car is tighter and there is an impact on the comfort of the ride...

davidspalding

I think I've had my tires up to 36, it's pretty "tight," but not teeth-jarring. I think I've been running at 34 or 35 at most.

Please, for your safety, DO NOT LOWER YOUR PRESSURE BELOW THE RECOMMENDED LEVELS. Might be safe if you check your pressure weekly, but for the most part running them "soft" can be hazardous. Please don't do it on our say so.

I think many people here run them at 32/32, i.e. same pressure all around. I've forgotten the technical reason for running the drive/steering tires higher than rear, but having them at 32 in back probably hurts nothing.

But please don't run them at 28 or 30 just out of a belief that it "feels better." I'm just shivering here thinking of the potential for an accident you're running.

Not. Worth. It.

nj2pa2nc

I keep the tire pressure at 32 on all tires. I check the pressure on a regular basis. I get the tires rotated and balanced every 6,000-7000 miles.

Jottle

Here's what's really scary. I just drove 3hrs on the loaner the dealership gave me (comfy ride), and all four tires have 27psi in them according to the notoriously inaccurate tpms system on the MID. Didn't seem to be any less responsive or grippy. But I think I'll fill them up to be safe.

davidspalding

If they have 27 PSI on them AFTER warming up, I'd say they're borderline dangerously low. Get them filled, ASAP.

Checked this morning with one of my two gauges. My tires are at 33 psi front and 34 psi rear. Nice comfy ride.

JimHolloman

The general public doesn't, and apparently Ford Motor Company didn't, understand the importance of tire pressure -- remember the Explorer and Firestone? IMO, it wasn't as much the tires that were at fault as the tire pressure. It may seem to be counter intuitive, but an under-inflated tire is much more likely to suffer a blowout than an over-inflated tire. The construction of the tire, the profile, the weight carried, and speed are some of the factors involved, but an under-inflated tire allows the sidewall to flex too much and causes heat buildup; the greater the speed, the greater the heat buildup. A safety extension to the TPS would be an alarm that were activate at a preset TP level. Two things that astonish me when I am driving are:

1) Drivers talking on a cell phone and having no clue as to what is going on around them.
2) Drivers with unsafe vehicles because their tires are clearly under-inflated. I tell people all the time that they need some air in one, or more, of their tires. Half the time the response is along the lines of "Why don't you mind your own business?" -- instead of "Think you for perhaps preventing a serious injury or death". Most people would not drive a car with brakes that would hardly stop it, but they will drive with tires than are a death trap at high speeds.

It is difficult to look at tires that have a low profile and recognize that they need some air. Everyone ought to check their tire pressure at least once a month -- and whenever there is sharp drop in temperature. I purchased a compressor at Harbor Freight for $70 and a tire bib and attachments at Lowes. For a little less than a $100, I am able to maintain the proper pressure in my tires. But, the compressor would not be suitable for those in an apartment, or with a small garage, because it takes too much floor space.

Anyone that wants a soft, comfy, ride doesn't need a TSX. A 50 profile on a firm suspension just isn't going to do it.

nj2pa2nc

we also have a compressor from Harbor Freight- great thing to have.

davidspalding

I use a heavy duty Blackburn tire pump[1] ... $80 or so from Amazon, with built in gauge. Good exercise. Yeah, I'm rough, tough, and buff.

When I was in the USCG, buddies who went 4-wheeling for surf fishing, would deflate their M+S tires for the sand, and carry a converted propane (bbq) tank filled with air, and an attachment for tires. I never got one ... still want one, nothing easier for topping off your tire. If I could get one with nitrogen.... (dream)

[1] I think it's the equivalent of the current AirTower HP. < $70. Dual stroke pumping, high capacity, usable for car tires.