dom

Never mind demographics and buying patterns, that should'nt be the argument here. The argumnet here should be; What's the better buy the TSX or Saab 9-3?

Here are my arguments for the TSX

- Looks better IMO (subjective)
- Performs better in every conceivable category except braking (MotorTrend Comparo)
- Cheaper with almost the equal amount of features
- More relaible (projected)
- No snob appeal (To some this is important, and I'm not calling anyone a snob)

ClutchPerformer

Alright, let's calm down guys.

We shouldn't alienate 93kewl just because he chooses a the 9-3 over the TSX. Soopa's not a "traitor", either just for saying what he does. And he's absolutely right to wait until the "market value" of the TSX goes down if he has that option. I would have done the same except I needed a car now.

About non-TSX owners: IMO, non X-car owners on X-car forums add a different perspective and make those forums more interesting. Just look at what all the CL/TL owners have done to stir up discussion here in the past couple weeks. It's GREAT!

Bottom line, Santacruz's feelings do not represent a-tsx as a whole. I, for one, would be happy if you stay 93kewl.

wiz

I think very rarely people choose a car for prestige factor. I know it was brought up in this thread, but that's not a certifiable reason for somebody to actually choose a car. Although to some, I'm sure it might be. I welcome people that like to talk about other cars. I guess I am one of the odd people that test drive many cars and talk to many dealers, even now after buying the TSX.

You know though, one of the things I hated most about the Saab, was the interior and all the damn_buttons! I mean, I like gadgets and stuff, but they had so many buttons on their radio, A/C controls and everything. But maybe that's just me though...everybody has their own opinion.

93Kewl

Where did I say that? I choose the 9-3 over the TSX for 1. a distinctly different driving experience (euro vs Japanese), 2. It has more of the features that I look for in a car 3. It is reasonably priced compared to similarly equipped euro-sports/luxury cars.

Ok, where is the snob factor there? What? Because I can afford in a car in the mid 30's means that I am a snob. Heck, my brand new CL-S was in the mid 30's when it first came out.

The difference in performance is so minor that only numbers can identify them. Don't fool yourself in thinking the TSX is "leaps and bounds above a 9-3." It's not - and I have test drove each car several times doing different things to find that out.

Yeah right. That's the reason Acura is around and that Honda is not just one big company. I have been all over Acura boards (CL and others) where Acura owners have snubbed their noses at Accord and Civic owners. Yes, the snob appeal may not be as much as "some" european car makes, but it is foolish to think it doesn't exist at all.

Once again, you prove my point.

dom

This is actually a very good point. This is what we've been trying to say all along regarding the FWD vs RWD argumant. There's an advantage yes but not a very noticeable one. In everyday driving the performance gap between the TSX and Saab or 325 or A4 for that matter is non-existent. But at the end of the day the "mine is bigger than yours" splittings hairs argument will always surface.

I guess I was looking at this from my own point of view which is I would have bought the TSX if it was badged a Honda anyway. I agree there's more snob appeal at Acura then Honda but its still nowhere near the level you'll find at Saab, BMW and Audi dealerships.

Freindly dialouge, is it such a bad thing?

Jason

IMO, the TSX is a great value at $28.9. That's my opinion, you have yours. Done. BTW, I'm not impressed with a prev gen TL with nav.

A fucking Corolla comes with nav? Next you're going to tell me Daewoo has come out with a nav system. Listen Soopa, it's not just that the car has a nav system, it has an 8" nav screen built in to the car WITH voice recognition. That's unbeatable. The nav is an important feature for me. I'm on the road all day (when I'm not here) and Honda makes the best.

Like I said, name any sporty luxury sedan under $30K (with actual options) that offers a manual transmission and a navigation system. There is only one.

larchmont

To me, Saab = extremely mediocre track record on reliability, and hard to find places to get it serviced.

Seinfeld would never have a Saab. Except that he has like about 100 cars, so he probably does.
(Did you know -- he bought a couple of little buildings in Manhattan just to store his cars.)

Hey, Kewi -- you don't snub your nose at people. However, you can thumb your nose at them to snub them.
(You don't have to tell me, I know I'm just being a snub.)

dom

Larch, what did Jerry drive on his TV show? Yup a Saab, remember when his mechanic stole it from him because he thought Jerry mistreated the car and Kramer chased him only to have golf clubs thrown at him. That was a hilarious episode. I think the mechanic was "Robert" from Everybody Loves Raymond?

Not sure if he actually has a Saab in real life, but that's why Seinfeild comes to mind.

93Kewl

Not at all dude! Hey, I have always thought the TSX is a nice car but it just doesn't offer what I am looking for in my next car. Some people just can't understand that. And...heaven forbid that a TSX member praise the 9-3 for what it is (a good alternative in the sports sedan market - albeit more expensive).

larchmont

I think you're lucky that any of us say anything good about a Saab at all.

Look, we're here mostly because we're Acura types. Why would you expect us to have anything at all good to say about a Saab? It's not that it isn't good, it's that on any subject that might come up, Acura types just wouldn't tend to think of Saab. The reliability thing is a biggie, and so is the cost. If at any given moment we're ignoring those things: when we're thinking performance, we're more likely to think of BMW; when we're thinking luxury/prestige/comfort, MB. Etc.

So, what exactly is it about Saab that would make you expect us to be saying any better things about it than we do?

soopa

heh... the maturity level here is staggering


ive owned acuras and ive run acura communities for a long time...


its funny... the majority of your statements echo those of EVERY community when a car first hits the market.

everyone loves their car when its brand new... they should when they just bit the bullet and plunked down 28-29k.


but in time... people become much more reasonable and its no longer a dick measuring event.


i bet yall werent so critical towards other vehicles BEFORE you made your purchasing decision.

admit it... at least 70% of you ENTERTAINED the idea that another car could compare to yours. lol


Clutch/dom: thank you for being 2 of the few logical parties in this topic.

dom: the one thing i disagree with you on is FWD/RWD... yes... performance NUMBERS wise the difference is nominal. RWD is all about the FEEL. RWD no question offers a superior performance driving experience... and will benefit you more in the long run if you plan on modifying your car.

But... that in no way means RWD is better then FWD or vice versa.


EVERYTHING has its pros and cons... including FWD and TSXs.... including RWD and BMWS.... including Navi-less SAABs. heh

So much for being open minded people :shakehd:

CleveSaab

Where did you get this from, friend?


"More reliable (projected)"

GM and it's subsidiary has only gotten better and better, and in fact is better than it's been in years.
Meanwhile, VW and it's subsidiary continue to back-slide.

Sidenote - Chrysler was supposed to get more reliable from there MB acquisition. In fact, the opposite has happened. MB quality is suffering.

Time will tell.

As for this "Saabs' are unreliable" myth. I'd love to know who started that. I have always heard just the opposite, and in fact is what drew me to them. Now that I own 2 I can attest to it. My 2 Saabs are the most reliable cars I've ever had to date.

soopa

the funny thing is.... i dont see anyone here BASHING the TSX. and look at the response...

i suspect fear of buyers remorse

otherwise why would you be so goddamn defensive?


i mean damn... CHILL out! everyone here needs to get a drink on their lunch break

soopa

I also disagree with the reliability thing...

My sister owns 2 Saabs, a last gen 9-5 and a new 9-3.

Both continue to be far more reliable then any 3 of my Acuras.


Not putting down Acura here... obviously I still love them and buy them... but that doesnt mean its right to falsify statements about other vehicles.


I give all fine automobiles my respect.

dom

I'll be honest, I was not among the 70% of people looking at other cars besides the TSX. I'm the biggest Honda Fanboy there is, right or wrong. The only 3 cars I looked at were the TSX, Accord EX V6 and a CR-V (Long Story).

But I fully respect other people's decesions and I can't insult someone for buying a Saab, Ford, BMW or whatever. People work hard for their money and putting someone's ride or house or lawnmower down just because you don't like it is'nt cool. Arguing maturely beforehand is one thing, but once someone has made that purchase, let it be.

soopa

i also think its funny that some of you are so quick to jump down my throat for NOT putting down another car when I obviously love the TSX enough to pour countless hours into constructing what will continue to be one of the best automotive communities out there.

its a damn shame really that some of you could be so ridiculous because someone DARES say another vehicle is comparable.

someone dares say Acura shouldnt be charging 28,9 for the car.


also note i never said the Saab is worth 32k and the TSX isnt worth 28,9......

if i thought the Saab was worth it I would own one. Same with the TSX.

ySL

For a $34K Vector, I rather get a Bimmer or a Benz-C... I don't see too many of the new 9-3's here in NYC and Long Island either, which is why I guess you could say they are unique.... but since you're getting an auto, I don't see why you love the Saab so much above all others at that price....

soopa

dom: good good point.

dom

Where did I get this from? I think its almost common knowledge that Honda's and Toyotas are the most reliable cars on the planet. If you don't think so pick up an issue of JD Power or Consumer Reports. Now having said that, my statement did'nt say "The TSX is leaps and bounds" more relaible just more relaible. So I get this from the FACT that Honda's ON AVERAGE are more reliable than Saab, GM, Ford, BMW, MB etc.

Sure the Saab 9-3 could prove to be more reliable, but until it does it SHOULD NOT be considered so.

If you can show me a report that ON AVERAGE shows Saab's are more reliable than Honda's please do so.

soopa

ysl: i see a ton in NYC far more then any high end acura. (ie: sans integra/rsx)

but... at 34k... you can get a vector with alot more equipment then a Benz or Bimmer.

so its the same reasoning as buying a loaded TSX over a base SAAB. heh

just all steps in the ladder... natural motions.

larchmont

As I've said whenever I talk about my BMW's lousy reliability, one person's data don't mean a thing. It's suggestive, but the way you know for sure is to look at the statistics. To say that you don't believe Saabs have had mediocre reliability is like saying you don't believe Luis Sojo was a worse hitter than Barry Bonds, because one time you saw him get a couple of big hits in the World Series.

Regarding our attitudes, I can only speak for myself. All I was saying was that while it's a real, real good car, I don't see why Saabs would be expected to particularly stand out in any way in the minds of most "Acura types." Still seems to me that whatever the subject might be, something other than Saab would come to mind for most of us (not all, I know -- hiya soop!)

soopa

actually in the latest surveys their not extremely far apart.


also a big reason for this is in many cases... honda does not release TSB data and doesnt recall based on many major AND minor things... including 80% of CL/TL owners trannys dying.


i have owned a new TL and 2 new CL's.... all three with many many problems.


they are certainly no longer the honda of old.


however it could be said this is due to the US build of the CL/TLS (even tho the trannys are built in Japan along with the engine and most other parts) and the chassis are designed in Japan as well.

but it could be said american build quality is at fault.... even tho the majority of the manufacturing process is done by machine at hondas Ohio plant.


in either case... my latest H/A's arent as reliable as my older ones.


and in direct comparison with friends and family who own Saabs... their cars are in fact more reliable then mine.


the ol HONDA IS THE BEST MADE CAR no longer applies.


am i bashing Honda? no. things slip... others catch up. I still buy them.

93Kewl

Larch,

You have been a voice of reason here for sometime but I am surprised at your response. Keep in mind I have owned, still do own, and admire the vehicles that Acura has made thusfar. I have also owned a Honda. You mean to tell me it is impossible for someone who either owns a TSX or who doesn't but peruses this board can't say nice things about another car.

Heck during the years I owned a CL I had very good things to say about BMW's, MB, yes, even Audi's, Lexus, etc. As a CL owner, I thik the Bimmer M3 convertible is one helluva car, not giving a hoot about the reliability of Bimmers. You know what, the G35 is a heck of a car too (even though I don't like the style). I really loved the G35 coupe but can't get one because there is no trunk on the car!

See, not so bad, is it?

soopa

yes dom: im not saying SAAB as a whole and in general is superior in anyway to Acura in terms of reliability.

but i also cannot conclude that they are in anyway INFERIOR.


remember... this is all from the mouth of a multiple modern day Acura owner.

Santacruz

Dude whatever, you come into a TSX forum touting the praises of the Saab 9-3 and expect us to back you up. What are you hoping for? You expect Larch and others here to tell you that soopa is right, that their TSX isn't worth the money. That the 9-3 would have been a better choice or it's better looking? You know what Larch 93kewl is right, the Saab 9-3 is a better more reliable car and if you argue with him at all, you're irrational and immature because he owned a CL.

ySL

You're prolly referring to Manhattan... you should call it "the city" to not confuse the New Yorkers because if you say there are more 9-3's than Integras/RSX in "NYC," then that makes no sense at all....

larchmont

Thanks for the compliment.
I was afraid I would be misunderstood here, and indeed that is happening. I think I said it better in my last post, but in case not:

We all know that Saab is a very, very good car. I could point to things about it that keep it from being a great car -- and, as luck would have it, those things just happen to be the kinds of things that would tend very much to bother Honda/Acura types of people. Plus, in the areas of Saab's strengths, there are OTHER cars which, in most people's views, are even stronger -- so that no matter what subject might come up, Saab would tend not to stand out in our minds. I think that with some exceptions (like soopa), this is true. And it's completely logical and understandable.

I didn't mean it's OK or sensible for us to say BAD things about Saab. It's just that it's hard to see why we should be expected to particularly think of GOOD things to say -- because whatever the subject might be, we would tend to think of something other than Saab. That's all I meant.

larchmont

No, soopa pal, they are extremely far apart, at least in CR.

The 9-3 most recently gets no rating at all, because it's new. In recent prior years, FWIW, it's ratings were not good.

To find a Saab that they rate as having a reliability anywhere near Honda/Acura, you have to go to the 9-5. Besides the fact that obviously that's a whole different thing, even there you still have some difference in favor of Honda/Acura, and (I believe, but I'm not 100% sure) the Saab doesn't have any extended good track record; the current good rating could just be a blip as far as we know. I'm not saying I know the reliability is bad, just that Saab hasn't come anywhere close to demonstrating good reliability.

ySL

even though he's joking, he has every right to say this but yet you tell him stuff like "Grow up young man, your level of maturity is not up to par, this interactive community is for serious discussion and blah blah blah....."

Look at the title of the thread:

"Saab 9-3 is EXTREMELY popular..."

If you say that the 9-3 is extremely popular, then you can insert any other car in the title that has recently gone through a redesign and it would be the same becuz they all sell well....but you chose to promote SAAB...

soopa

Santacruz your cracking me up

TinkySD

I know i'm jumping in late but the tsx a rip off for 28 with nav...please.

Handling -- out skidpadded and slalomed the 9-3 arc and c230 in the only head to head test. It win's praises from everyone for balance and lack of understeer and all that on crappy crappy all season tires and heavy ass stock wheels.

Engine -- Actually craking 180lbft at 2500 rpm and 210hp @ 6800ish and getting 30mpg on the highway...that's a stronger torque curve than the 1.8t and c230. Also ouran the 9-3 in the onoly head to head test and they noted the tsx was "significantly faster"... all the while complaining of wheel hop from the crap tires. I know it's all mag racing but in all the comparisons that the mags have made the tsx has been with .1 of the is300 even as they noted.

Interior- Curently i think it's the best in the acura lineup. It has won tons of priase from all the review saying the interior is like somethign from a car costing twice as much. The materials are top notch...no PVC anywhere. The dash material is a textured spray on poly urethane which is soft and nice. Layout is great.

Exterior - Build quality is the best in the acura lineup. Look at a tl next to a tsx and compare the gaps in the body panels...no comparisons. Everything form the doors to the steering feel more solid.


Yes i know there are alot faster and better handling cars out there for less money. But telling people that the tsx is a rip off is a complete joke. Unless of course you consider the saab, a4, 325 and c230 more of a rip off.

Don't mind me i'm just having a bad day at work

fdl

Yes, and any car inserted in there, as long as it was a competitor to the TSX, would be a relavent and appropriate discussion IMO. I too have been flamed for "promoting" another car, and I OWN A TSX. I dont know what everyones problem is lately but I hope this forum doesnt become filled with too much ignorant biases or insecurities.

I am not saying you are ignorant (ySL), or picking on you..just venting.

Santacruz

soopa you know i love you man! anyone that admins a tsx forum can't be all bad.

larchmont

That's really what I was reacting to also. I didn't say it well and so I was asking to get my butt kicked. But, it seemed to me that it was like some of the people on this thread were expecting we should say things that no one should expect us to think of. If you drag it out of us, what you're likely to get, instead, is our RESERVATIONS about Saab, and that's exactly what started happening.

Still no excuse on my part. I should have found better ways to put it.

TinkySD

Yeah i suppose i should clarify -- i'm not one of those honda fanboys. There are thigns i like about every car i mentioned. Soopa just pissed me off by calling the tsx a ripoff. :P The only way i can see someone thinking that is if they want balls out performance above all else and if so i thinkt hey are looking at the wrong car.

wiz

Ok, I thought I was being reasonable, but I guess my work is pulling me away from the board too much for me to respond and get noticed!

If I had more money to spend, the 9-3 would have weighed in very heavily against the C230 as well as the Bimmer 3 series. However, i could not spend more than 30K, and for that money, the TSX was the best deal, not to mention I liked it.

I will admit, I enjoyed driving the 9-3 (all models). I thought it was a very well built car, and I would not have had a problem buying one. I have no problems with other people talking about the TSX and comparing it to other cars. I actually like it, because I have driven many of the other cars out there and can compare them to each other in different aspects.

But a lot of you are right, a lot of people are defensive for the fact that they just bought the car. However, if one car is better than the TSX, I have no problems admitting it. I bought the car for my reasons, not for anybody elses reasons. Everybody has different wants and needs in a car, and the TSX fit me to a T. Nothing like a little friendly chatter!

larchmont

There was plenty here to piss us off even without that. I was pissed off without even understanding that Soopa really meant it. I thought he was being sarcastic and that he meant just the opposite -- that the TSX is underpriced, considering what it is.

TinkySD

I concurr. If i was looking to spend much more than what the tsx costs i would have been in another car for sure. But it had everything i wanted for a good price.

soopa

bahahahaha

this is like watching the move from the TL to the CL all over again.

im having deja vu...

yall are so obvious


you should read back on A-CL the topics from when that motortrend article came out that had the CL-S ahead of the 328i and youll see these exact rowdy comments from yer fellow fawkin mag racers


also the same "the CL is built so much better then the TL... omg the body gaps are tighter.... omg the doors close so much heavier... omg omg omg omg omg.... i just nut on myself when i looked in my garage... omg"

TinkySD

you aren't making any valid points, just talking shit n00b! Yeah mag racing sucks. My point is that regardless of what else the tsx is right on par with everyting in the segment. That is handling wise + acceleration wise. I honestly believe the build quality of the tsx is higher than the tl/cl. The gaps ARE tighter and the materials on par or better with a car costing less...that's a good thing. I guess my point is if you have a car comparable in every tactile manner with it's competition, but costs less with more features how can you call it a rip off but not it's competition?

Is the whole entry level luxury segment cars thare are all ripoffs? Or do you just like the looks of the 9-3 so much that you say ... omg omg omg omg omg.... i just nut on myself when i looked in my garage... omg