curls

Background info: Car is burning 1L every 1000km, just bought it 7000km ago (it now has 80,000km as I bought it used from this exact dealer). Leakdown and compression were great (6% leakdown across all cylinders, 220 compression across all cylinders). Still, its burning oil. No smoke on startup and none noticed on high-rpm or high-rpm shifts.



Soooooo... I just got an oil change and started my "oil consumption study" under Acura supervision. I'm supposed to come back every 1000km on the nose, to get the oil level checked, which they will then impute some oil consumption rate from.

I was talking to J.P., who is normally very nice and helpful from past experience. He noted that the work order said my car has a modified intake and a short shifter.

Anyhow, you'll get a kick outta this part:

Him: "How often are you in VTEC?"

Me: "Maybe once a day, as I only go about 6000rpm on rare occasions"

Him: "Ok... what's your normal shift point?"

Me: "About 3,500rpm on average, +/- 500 rpm from there."

Him: "Oh, so you're in VTEC a lot..."

Me: *puzzled look* "Like I said, once a day, tops"

Him: "Nope, VTEC engages at about 3000 rpm on the TSX and RSX, which share a very similar engine type -- race-breed engine".

Me: "I think you should check your service manual and spec-sheet, because I know that VTEC kicks in at 6000rpm, and if you say it doesn't, then my car has even bigger problems" *smirk* (referring to ECU problems if it wasn't kicking in at 6000)

Him: "Anyhow, with a cold air intake, your warranty claim would probably be ignored... although I know you dont drive it too hard, spending time in VTEC will burn lots of oil. I see a lot of RSX's and TSX's come in burning 1L ever 1000km... all of them driven fairly hard"

Me: "I drive my car hard?"

Him: "If you shift at 3500, yes..."

Me: "Well, Acura Canada said the technical specifications for ALL Honda engines is 1L/1500km MAX consumption. Please explain why all of a sudden while driving in your "3000 rpm VTEC", this consumption is considered normal?"

Him: "Like I said, I can't say yes or no to your claims yet, but the oil consumption analysis will show how much you're burning, and if the leakdown and compression numbers you said are correct, then the engine is in 100% fine shape".

Me: "OK, we'll see... and I'll be in contact w/ Acura Canada if I think you guys are ignoring a valid warranty claim".

To that note, we discussed that I might want to take the intake off at a later date if indeed I will be putting in a warranty claim. I was going to get into an argument about the intake only being on for 2000km and the technicalities behind how a filter works, but I thought his head might explode with all that information.

So on that note... ummm... I hate service advisors that talk outta their ass and don't have a clue about the cars they service. Telling me that "race breed engines burn more oil by nature" seems counter-intuitive to the fact that race breed engines should be built to tighter tolerances to begin with, AND that the spec for ALL Honda engines is 1L/1500km, coming from Acura Canada -- someone above him.

Ugh...

jmathew34

good luck

DaveWhyman

Take it to another dealer!

curls

The only other one in the area caters to french people (its on the Quebec side of the river), and is owned by the same guy as this one... It's not a nice place, although might just be nicer than Camco. LOL

Powered by Honda

burning oil eh? I never really was concerned with that? Do all cars burn oil? My accord seems fine. Oil change every 5k at honda. Thats all I know about oil. lol.


Seems like Honda should fix this as it sounds like an engine problem.

Powered by Honda

Concerning the vtec engagement issue:

K24A is an i-vtec engine which means Vtec can engage at ANY RPM. The computer judges how heavy your foot is...and decides wether to engage vtec or not. Depending on the demand by the driver.

So although it sounds rediculus I think you can be in vtec at 3500 RPM.

My J30 series is a standard vtec engine. I can only go into vtec after 5500rpm for my accord.

NJTSXMan

That's funny.. Vtec at 3500rpm? If that is true, then i'd be burning massive amounts of oil. The car hardly moves unless you punch it to at least 3k.

GIBSON6594

well, isn't our vtec 2 stage, which means it engages once at 3K and again at 6K?

McGriddle

McGriddle

The "i" in i-VTEC stands for Variable Timing Control. It allows continously variable intake-cam timing. The VTEC profiles are 2 separate profiles that control both the intake and exhaust cams. The high RPM VTEC cam profile engages at 6000 RPM. To get any lower, you need Hondata to bring it down to 5000 RPM.

curls

What I thought. I ONLY feel the real kick at 6000 rpm and thats it... although I know its in "baby VTEC" earlier than that (cam timing, not different cam lobes, correct?).

Either way, 1L/1000km is horseshit, and the guy was full of crap.

S14 n Tsx

I don't about you guys!!~ but VETC isn't turbo where you feel the kick back anything like that!!~ I don't understand why some of you guys make big deal out of VTEC!! Maybe because I have a stock car but I do redline it once a while but don't feel that much differences!!~
BTW, I own a MT not AT so yeah!

S14 n Tsx

It's funny, how all these dealer think they know everything about VTEC and all that. VTEC doesn't kick in 3000 RPM. I mean it's cool that they are trying to get your attention and it's part of the marketing but they need to stop BSing!!!~ Making crap up!!~

moda_way

Umm... no, vtec doesn't shift the cam until 6000RPM and the rest of the time the cam is being advanced and retarded on the primary lobe via a weight on the cam gears; that's iVTEC. The service manager is an idiot.

JayRoam

I like my Acura service advisor. He has a fully built EK Civic, and is in one of the younger car clubs, but he knows his stuff. Funny, he even remembers my CRX when he was younger

osubuckeye98

http://asia.vtec.net/article/k20a/

kyotousa

what are you talking about

what's the use for hondata then?.......so you can be in vtec mode from 2Krpm - 7Krpm?

i don't think so

curls

There is two stages of i-VTEC. Camshaft timing (the "i-"), and secondary lobes (the "VTEC" part).

intake and exhaust cams start adjusting their timing somewhere above 3000rpm, but this is just for efficiencies, not "true power gains". After 6000rpm w/ moderate-to-heavy throttle (among other things), the engine switches over to true VTEC (the secondary higher lift and duration cam lobes).

The service advisor telling me "you will burn oil because you're in VTEC at almost any rpm" is the same as telling me that green monkies will fly outta my ass if I eat burritos. He's full of it.

I have since been talking to the operations manager at this dealership and things are getting straightened out and corrected, as they should be.

Ken1997TL

Drive a Honda Prelude, the VTEC crossover will push you back into your seat.

On the TSX its a very gradual process rather than a black/white experience.

magnifico

How do I get to VTEC?

I have AT....
I don't think I have ever gone into 6k rpm therefore NO VTEC for me so far.

Now do I really have to floor it hard to get into VTEC ???
Cause I hit 80~90 MPH at an easy 3K rpm.(no passenger)

iamhomin

^
Switch to SS mode and let it rev up to 7k.

And at that service manager. He's a douche.

Russdaddy

Conversation would have ended with this guy after he started bumping gums about the warranty being void due to a stupid aftermarket intake. It's a filter, not a turbo. Last time I checked, an air filter does not void the warranty.

03CoupeV6

What do you mean by the max consumption is 1L/1500km?

Is that like saying it's okay for a Honda/Acura car to use 1.1 quarts of oil every 932 miles? Because that's definitely not right.

hans007

yeah in D mode, it will shift at 6000. but you can use the manumatic to get it past that.

i have been dying to try this, but well... my car is new and i figure i shoudl break it in, and the loaner i got, well i never got a chance to since there was traffic that whole week.

is it a very noticeable kick? i've never owned a honda before.

Ellas9

I can't believe Acura is saying over 1L consumption for 1000km. I've been selling and servicing cars (many Honda engines) for years, I've only seen engines burn that much oil with poor compression or crazy deceleration (engine braking). No one has ever been able to explain to me how an engine can "burn" oil without the above two activities in place. Yes, as you rev higher it will tend to bring more oil to the top but only on a deceleration will in "burn" it. Oh yea, if your burning that much oil and its not the two factors listed...try changing the oil yourself or pay the mechanic off so you can watch him put 5W30 in the engine (I bet you've got 5W20 - like the other Acura cars) running in the engine - how do I know this...because my friend's Type S was buring oil, we then changed it ourselves with Catrol GTX Conventional 5/30 (his is the last Type S before the 5/20 change over) and it burned barely burned any oil (maybe 0.5L over 6K kms.)

On the i-VTEC matter, honestly, I hear so much %$$t about when it engages and this and that....I have no idea when or how it does....but the guy who was talking about the weights seems to know what he's talking about.

curls

Good point about the engine braking. I DO use that technique, ie: downshifting ON OCCASION when coming up to a light that is about to turn green, but I don't do it all the time. From what I understand, this causes a large vaccuum and sucks the oil past the valves, whether the seals are good or not. Am I right here? Regardless, I tend to rev-match, and not engine brake... so rev matching should in theory be a lot easier on the engine (and clutch) than pure engine braking, correct?

I might try 1L worth of consumption study without engine braking to see if that's the problem, but REGARDLESS, yes, Honda's "1L per 1500km (1000 miles) is within normal limits" is complete horseshit. Mind you, most manufacturers have this as their spec... I did a lot of research on this and it was very common.

Thanks!
Eric

rogho

Yes, please remember it's i-Vtec, it is not vtec. I agree with Powered by Honda. i-Vtec can kick in at anytime, depends on drivers behavior (how deep you step on the pedal). 3500 rpm gets i-Vtec engagement is not impossible, even though sounds ridiculous.
Only the old Vtec has a fixed point of Vtec kick in.
Like my old 1.6 EL, vtec kicks in at around 5400 rpm.

curls

Ugh, had ANOTHER run-in with the same retarded service advisor yesterday, after already talking with the Operations Manager and getting the true deal from him. I was picking up my keys and the service advisor started going into the whole "TSX's share the same breed engine as the RSX-S and thus burn a lot of oil, it's in their nature"... needless to say, I told him he was an idiot as NOBODY I know with a TSX (incl. most everyone here) burns anything close to what I do, and that he should really quit giving false advice to everyone.

GRRR... is it THAT hard to hire competent service advisors?

/endrant

rogho

Turn off all fans and audio.
Use SS shift to 3rd gear and go to about 3500rpm you will hear Vtec start kicking in. TSX gives a very smooth vtec engagement, unlike Prelude, gives you a push on your back.

curik_euro

Sorry to ask this. But what does VTEC do? I only know that VVT and lift control are continuously working regardless of engine speed. But what does it do so that it makes Honda or Acura be different to Toyota? Toyota has VVTL-i to isnt it?

rogho

http://www.billzilla.org/vvtvtec.htm

curls

As a follow-up to this saga, I have been in constant communication with the Operations Manager (Mike Neville) at Camco Acura in Ottawa. He has been FANTASTIC.

Ihave come back to the dealer as per his recommendation, every time I was down to the lower mark on the dipstick (-1 liter of oil). They'd mark the mileage, top it up to the top mark, and I did this three times (about 3000km, so 1L/1000km). This gave them a good idea that the consumption was consistent, and I even BABIED the car (boring!) for the last liter, and the rate of consumption was basically the same.

So, from those results, he's been in contact with Acura TechLine and their recommendation was to do the following this coming Monday: Replace PCV valve and test old one, Compression test, Leakdown test.

Depending on the results, if they see that one particular component of the engine is causing the consumption, they'll replace that component (under warranty). If the tests yield nothing in particular, they will remove the head and inspect the engine tolerances, etc. I'll push for them to replace valve seals and rings while they're in there as the work isn't much more anyhow.

Thank goodness they're taking care of this, finally.

curls

Update: PCV was OK. Compression test was done (I didnt get the results personally) and results sent to Acura Canada. Mike Neville thinks they'll likely be tearing it down and giving it a rebuild from what he's seen before.

aaronng

I can't believe that there are so many TSX owners on a TSX forum who think that the camchange point can be as low as 3500rpm or be shifted anywhere in the RPM range based on load.

I hope that your engine gets fixed up under warranty. My engine burns zero oil, as the level never changes between the 6 month service interval and my exhaust is dry as a bone, no oily fingers when I stick them in. So yours definitely should be fixed under Acura's cost.

Anyway, I hope that in the past month that those who have posted realize that i-VTEC is very similar to DOHC VTEC. You get camchange at 6000rpm, and intake cams can be advanced throughout the RPM range based on engine load, speed and throttle position.

curls

Update (again):

Car is going in on 01/08/06 for 4-5 days. Internal inspection and repair will be done and I should have a non-oil-consuming car as of the end of the week.

I wasn't talking directly to the Operations Manager, just a service advisor, so I don't know what is planned exactly. I will find out more on Monday I guess.

WOOOOOOO!! Finally!

Oh, and I have my choice of rental car from their rental company, or an Acura EL (Cdn. Premium Civic, essentially).

HoRRo

An EL only? Try to milk them for a CSX, would be fun just to play around with the remote starter.

curls

I had a remote starter for years - its nothing overly entertaining anymore.

We'll see what the rental company has, too, before taking the EL. Either way, I'd rather be driving MY car.

HoRRo

Umm.... The CSX remote starter/keyfob is not your average remote starter. On top of remote starting, you can set the HVAC system to either heat up or cool down your car and it will also tell you how many minutes it has been running. Is there an aftermarket system that can do this???

curls

No but for years, setting the temp before leaving the car, and using a watch, I was able to do this too.

sounds like a nice setup though.

aaronng

Haha, good job on getting your engine fixed under warranty. Keep us updated on how it goes. I think that at least 10% of TSX sold burn oil like petrol.