Black_6spd

I'm having a great deal of difficulty trying to sort out my thoughts after my 2nd test drive of BMW's 328i. In short, the experience was really overwelming for me and I ended up with a huge migraine afterwards.

Maybe some of you AZ brothers could give some unbaised feedback.

Anyway, I started this whole ordeal a few weeks ago while I was bored near Escondido BMW. I ended up taking an extended lunch one day and headed over to the BMW dealer. Somehow, I ended up poking around and took a 328i 6AT steptronic w/ premium and sport package out for a spin.

The 328i's auto tranny was very impressive. The gears seemed to fit the engine's torquier powerband beautifully as I carved up some twisties in the nearby hills and canyons. The 3.0, 230-HP motor seemed to rev effortlessly while going up the hills and accelerating out of the turns. I was sold on the RWD feeling that reminded me of my ventures with one of my "dream cars," the Honda S2000. While the power was not the same as my modded TSX, it was expected with a torque converter robbing the power and I didn't really mind.

The interior seemed to be well laid-out as BMW has always been known to keep things almost on the bland side. Over my current TSX, I thought the better leather, iDrive Navi, rear A/C vents, push-start button, and bluetooth would be quite an upgrade.

Afterwards, I thanked the salesman and started to digest the whole experience. With my existing TSX loan having some considerable equity, I decided it would be a time for a change.

Or not?

I ran the numbers a gazzillion times and I thought that leasing would make better sense than continuing to make payments toward my TSX from a business-owner's perspective. I started having some of the dealers send me quotes on the following:
2007 328i
- steptronic tranny
- zenon headlights
- sport package
- premium package

While my payment came out to around $550/mo, which is RL territory, I didn't seem to mind because of my tax deductions. I just kept plowing away and was ready to take the best deal out there.

Then, all of a sudden, I was blind-sided by a salesman who called me about a jet-black 6MT that he wants to get rid of.

I drove half an hour to McKenna BMW in Norwalk to check this car out.

It had an odd combination: Sport package, 6MT, and Navi. No premimum package, but I decided to take it for a spin anyway through the traffic-filled streets of Norwalk. To make a long story short, I left the dealership with the following thoughts:
- 1st gear is wayyy to short. When you barely tap the gas, you're already at 4500 RPM.
- Many of the lacking amenities compared to the TSX defeats the whole purpose of paying much more for a percieved more upscale model like BMW.
- Even in 6MT, the 328i is not faster than my modded TSX, at least the butt-dyno tells me so. When I got back into my TSX, the powerband felt much better and the iVTEC kept me in the powerband longer compared to the 3.0's VANOS that seemed to drop power after 6k.
- In contrast to my first test drive, the handling felt only slightly better than my current Aspec setup.
- I didn't like the lack of satellite radio (XM/Sirius)

After reviewing a somewhat negative experience the second time around, I'm trying to analyze my original motives for selling my TSX:
- leasing would be the higher deduction between the two
- snob appeal of the bimmer
- better handling of the bimmer
- need for bluetooth and navi (I'm sick of my Pioneer AVIC-POS)
- thought it would be faster than a modded TSX

Anyway, I'm glad I didn't get around to parting my car out yet. My decision is on hold for now.

synthetic

- Are you planning to keep the BMW beyond its warranty period? If so, take into account the huge difference between the costs of ownership.

- Are you in a rush to change cars? If not, why not wait for the next TSX to see what it's got?

- Is the BMW that much of an upgrade that you're willing to lose a considerable amount of money and increase your insurance premium?

- How often do you push your TSX's suspension to its limits? Based on Personal experience, the TSX's handling at 9/10 is what the 3-series' handling is at 8/10. Only a slight difference.

- Are you sure a slushbox is what you want to "upgrade" to?!

FBPaCCord

i couldnt tell you about the bmw since ive never even driven one, but allow me to say that i was thoroughly impressed with your thought proccess, even if it was a bit excessive. you should teach a class somewhere for compulsive buyers,

wickedk24

It's the Filipino thought process of buying things, good write up man

Brandon24pdx

twin turbo or dont waste your time with the overpriced Bimmer. Just my two pennies

PittIsIt

I recently did the TL A-Spec test drive and sprung for it. The dealer was jonesing to get rid of them, and i was SOOOO TEMPED. then i did what you're doing now

THINK

Why mess with a good thing? I think we all agree the TSX is a great thing. Don't leave us cause you're tempted by the fruits of another.

There are so many unbeatable things about our TSX. Go ahead and drive in victory past that dealership.

(wow that was gay)

rb1

Not to quibble, but butt-dyno's are notoriously unreliable.

Even BMW's own performance numbers -- and manufacturers always publish conservative time figures for acceleration -- don't jive with this.

The 328i with an AT is faster than a stock TSX 6-MT. BMW claims 6.9 seconds, better than any published TSX 6-MT figure I've seen in a car magazine. BMW claims 6.3 seconds 0-60 for the 6MT. Haven't seen a TSX number even in that ballpark.

You mentioned mods, but unless it's a supercharger or turbo, I think the 328 is going to be faster. The powerband is lower -- peak torque at 2700 RPM instead of 4500 for the TSX, so it's different, that's all.


FWIW...

Black_6spd

Good questions, man. I've put my answers below:
1. I will be doing a 24 or 36 month lease. The car will be under warranty the entire period and I will still continue to do most of the maintenance.
2. No. However, I think it's more of a new car "itch."
3. Believe it or not, my insurance will actually be less! I talked to my broker the other day and he said that the 328i is perceived to carry less risk than a used TSX.
4. Good point. As I said above, the aspec suspension is comprable to the sport package suspension. It might be even closer if I had better tires than the POS Kuhmos.
5. Definately. If the TSX had a 6-speed AT, I would've reconsidered.

Black_6spd

I've always hated magazine numbers.

I put my sig in this post to show you my mods, and I'm almost willing to bet I'll walk a 6MT 328i (stock of course). While I'm sure the RWD launch would help off the line, I just don't see it happening. Also, I take my brother's new 530i 6AT pretty easily.

Black_6spd

I'm not clear. Did you actually buy the TL-S or not? I thought about the TL-S as an option, but really felt the 3.5 was a horrible, cheap idea for a FWD car.

wenge

I thought I was going to get a 328i for months, and I kept looking at it and running the build & price thing on bmw's site, looked at it at the auto show, the dealership, etc. They're sexy cars, that's for sure.

I'd recommend hitting some of the BMW-equivalents to AZ (bimmerfest and e90-post, for example).

In the end, I got the TSX instead of a 328 for a few reasons. One, I could get a TL or RL for the same lease price as an -entry- bimmer with similar equipment as the TSX. Two, check the bimmer forums for comments on quality. I saw stuff like like "1,200 miles and no problems yet!" and (the one that really did it for me) was "my car's been perfection! had to replace the tail-lights twice but it's been perfection!" Sure, Honda grows a lemon every so often, but after reading enough comments about problems people have had, it really looked like a lot of wishful delusion.

Also, uh, I like having a spare tire.

wenge

One last comment - I found the nickle-and-dime approach to spec'ing a bimmer to be a real detraction. Bluetooth? $400. Satellite radio? 1K. Xenon lights? $500. It felt like "base price: $32,000. Does not include seats, steering wheels, radio, headlights." I do wish the TSX had call-home like BMW Assist, but oh well.

iDrive is incredibly stupid. EVERYONE thinks the Alpine/Honda nav is the best.

rb1

I agree on this point, but I suppose it lets you get into the car for much less than it would otherwise. I can't deal with it either, especially when they rarely have the "stripper" models on the lot anyway.

A BMW 3-series equipped like a TSX would run 5-8K more.

LuvMyTSX

For real....MB is the same way and it drives me nuts. I mean, it's nice to have SOME options, but honestly, that is way overboard. It's nice when you look at Honda or Acura, see the price, and know that the car has pretty much everything standard on it.

Deity711

What's the deal with that? Are they all sold with run-flats? Any option for regular tires with a spare?

I understand excluding the spare on a Corvette or something, but the 3 is supposed to be a sensible, practical daily driver, eh?

wenge

Spending 32K for -vinyl- seats seemed a bit silly.

wenge

Yes, they're all RFTs. The 3-series does not have a spare tire. They even advertise the increased cargo capacity.

Check it out: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/att...2&d=1174088684

rb1

I think VW's current "package" approach works OK, also. You can get (1) a stripper, (2) Package I which includes a nice set of upgrades (e.g. wheels, sunroof, etc.), or (3) Package II -- everything. It's a nice compromise over the "a la carte" system because it gives people some choices, but there's only so many different varieties of cars on the lot.

Even the TSX has 4 choices: (Navi or Not) x (AT or MT)

Black_6spd

While it may seem "silly" to you, their "pleather" is of better quality than our leather-trimmed seats. I just didn't like the fact that they're manual if you don't get the premium package.

Actually, it would be more like 15k more. The premium package doesn't even come with heated seats or zenon headlights!

While I know BMW never had value as a strength, you really have to DRIVE one to appreciate it. My boss has the 335ci and the thing is a rocket.

rb1

Yeah, I was thinking of the E46 325i, which has since been replaced. You could load one of those up for around 35-36K.

Black_6spd

Umm....never mind.

CarbonGray Earl

Hold out for the 335. judging from your impressions, while the 328i may have loads more of that intangible BMW character, driving an automatic that your current car can walk away from isn't going to be fun for you, at least not initially. I would imagine your TSX in its current state to be a better driver's car as compared to the BMW, even in the handling department.

If you can hold out for the 335, you can get everything you want (power, amenities, etc). In the meantime, you get to drive your TSX, which you've put alot of work into, don't have to second guess yourself after you've stepped into a 328i that might not be as exhilarating to drive.

Just my 2 cents, either car would be pretty cool.

aaronng

Even if I dislike magazine numbers, the only thing I dislike even more are manufacturer's claimed numbers!

rb1

OK, but my point was that everyone beats the manufacturer's claimed numbers, usually by 0.5 second or so. (Otherwise, the manufacturer would get sued).

I haven't seen a normally aspirated TSX timeslip anywhere near the claimed 6.3 by BMW in this case..

BacktoAcura

Having gone from a E36 to a TSX, I can honestly say I miss the RWD fun and performance factor of the Bimmer. I bought the used '04 TSX recently because I wanted a newer car, that came standard with most stuff I need and was a couple $k less than an E46 of the same year and with the same trim level. Reliability and dependability was important as well.
As for the new ones, they still compare the same way. Not much as change except higher horsepower in the Bimmer, and the fact that they have 4 year 80K free maintenance. The handling is still going to be more fun in the 3-series going through the twisties.
The one thing that is really starting to piss me off more than I could imagine, is the aircraft carrier wide turning radius of the TSX compared to the BMW....

So, decide what is most important to you. good luck.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

In my opinion, going from a TSX to a 328i is just not worth it. It's not enough of an upgrade for the price difference.

Going from a TSX to a 335i is more justifiable.

EDIT: And just for comparison, a nearly identically equipped 328 is MSRP $38,705. Even if we deduct $2000 for anything that the 328 has that the TSX doesn't, the difference is still nearly $9k.

Black_6spd

This is what pretty much stopped me from pulling the trigger. And you probably meant a stock TSX, right? How much more for someone coming from a modded TSX that already has its own personality?

I agree with you and CarbonGrey: Don't do it unless I'm getting into a 335i.

I'm in no hurry right now. Although the 6MT 328i is still a consideration if they could install the BMW Bluetooth phone, it's fading quickly.

This is the 2nd time I've had the new car itch. The first time around, I was eyeing the RL. This time, it's the BMW 3. The funny thing is, I've ended up having a better appreciation for my car BOTH times.

I guess I'll never learn....

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

If you really want a new car around the size of the TSX with RWD and a not too expensive price, you really have no legitimate options.

There really are no solid driver's cars in the small-mid size class with RWD and good driving dynamics that don't cost an arm and a leg. Quite a pity, when you think about it.

dom

Its a damn shame.

rb1

Yes, it used to be about 40 feet, and I refused to buy one while this was true.

They have tightened it up some in the 06/07 models, to 38 feet. Not all that good, but that 2 feet makes a big difference.

jlukja

After reading that very long first post I can only come to one conclusion.... AT>MT.

Black_6spd

^^ It's a good thing you chimed in (despite your smart arse remark ) -- I almost forgot I had an appoinment with Jesse tomorrow to return my car to stock!

After seeing your post, it somehow reminded me that I made an appointment w/ Team Honda. I just called him and told him I'm not selling the TSX for now....

jlukja

Glad to be of service

Not sure what the power difference would be but have you considered a pre-owned 330 MT? There may be some coming off lease now.

easyman1211

i really have to differ in regard to the handling. I have an e46 (02-05) body 330i with the sport package and i have driven an 07 tsx many times as well as an 06 325i and the bmw out handles the tsx by leaps and bounds.
this may be subjective but i like the interior of the bimmer more.

TSX2345

I should let you drive my car with the HyTech maybe that will give you something to look forward too. What a difference an exhaust system makes.

HyTech Power BITCHES!!

Black_6spd

While it would be tough to draw the line between "leaps and bounds" and just plain better, I think everyone who has commented about the handling agrees that the RWD 3-series (e46 and e90) is superior to the FWD TSX.

However, the problem with test driving is the fact that you really don't have enough time to get adjusted to the way the car behaves. Add that to the fact that the 07 TSX you drove didn't have the sport package equivalent in the aspec package, and it's easy to understand your viewpoint.

russ_777

Although I don't own either car, I've test driven both several times and think it's an interesting comparison.

The 328i's auto tranny was very impressive. The gears seemed to fit the engine's torquier powerband beautifully as I carved up some twisties in the nearby hills and canyons. The 3.0, 230-HP motor seemed to rev effortlessly while going up the hills and accelerating out of the turns. I was sold on the RWD feeling that reminded me of my ventures with one of my "dream cars," the Honda S2000. While the power was not the same as my modded TSX, it was expected with a torque converter robbing the power and I didn't really mind.

FYI, the auto for the 328 is sourced from GM. The one I drove had the manual on which I thought the shifter was a little loose feeling. I'm accustomed to shifting a G35 coupe which is like flicking a switch so that was easy to notice. That would be easy to fix with an M shifter though.

I haven't seen any 0-60 test results on the 328i but C&D tested the 325i in Nov 05 at around 6.1 with a MT. It had a detuned version of the engine in the 328i so it can probably push sub 6.0 0-60. I think C&D had the 04 TSX at 7.2 0-60 so stock-stock there's a big difference. It looks like some folks here have modded their TSX's with IHE and hondata to get them to run in the low 6 second 0-60 range, so if you throw in 2-3 k to get there, it's going to be pretty close to the 328 in straight line.

The interior seemed to be well laid-out as BMW has always been known to keep things almost on the bland side. Over my current TSX, I thought the better leather, iDrive Navi, rear A/C vents, push-start button, and bluetooth would be quite an upgrade.

The thing to me that's truly unique about the TSX compared to anything other than a 3 series in it's price range is the fantastic ergonomics and feel when you get behind the wheel - it just has that classic sports sedan feel that the 3 series made famous. I think where the 328 exceeds the TSX in the driving environment of the interior is the sport seats - much more lateral bolstering; better materials (real wood/aluminum trim rather than plood or paluminum); the option to get something other than monotone interiors (coral red seats with black carpet, saddle brown with black), all which add to the sportiness, upscale feel and refinement IMO.

******

IThen, all of a sudden, I was blind-sided by a salesman who called me about a jet-black 6MT that he wants to get rid of.

I drove half an hour to McKenna BMW in Norwalk to check this car out.

It had an odd combination: Sport package, 6MT, and Navi. No premimum package, but I decided to take it for a spin anyway through the traffic-filled streets of Norwalk. To make a long story short, I left the dealership with the following thoughts:
- 1st gear is wayyy to short. When you barely tap the gas, you're already at 4500 RPM.

That's to compensate for the lack of low end torque relative to the 335. But even considering that, it takes several K of mods to a TSX to approach that torque curve.

- Many of the lacking amenities compared to the TSX defeats the whole purpose of paying much more for a percieved more upscale model like BMW.

Yes, you have to get the Sport + Premium packages to have apples-apples.

- Even in 6MT, the 328i is not faster than my modded TSX, at least the butt-dyno tells me so. When I got back into my TSX, the powerband felt much better and the iVTEC kept me in the powerband longer compared to the 3.0's VANOS that seemed to drop power after 6k.

You've got one quick TSX then!

- In contrast to my first test drive, the handling felt only slightly better than my current Aspec setup.
- I didn't like the lack of satellite radio (XM/Sirius)

Easy aftermarket fix.

After reviewing a somewhat negative experience the second time around, I'm trying to analyze my original motives for selling my TSX:
- leasing would be the higher deduction between the two
- snob appeal of the bimmer
- better handling of the bimmer
- need for bluetooth and navi (I'm sick of my Pioneer AVIC-POS)
- thought it would be faster than a modded TSX

Anyway, I'm glad I didn't get around to parting my car out yet. My decision is on hold for now.

The conclusion I came to is it's a damn shame Acura hasn't produced a RWD TSX with either a small V6 or IL 6 derived from a K20. Sure it'd drive it into the low-mid 30's and make it heavier but it would still likely out BMW BMW.
FYI, after also driving the 335, there's no way I'd buy a 328. Having said that, I'm getting ready to buy a TSX as an interim car until BMW fixes some of the more severe new model defects in the 335.

Black_6spd

While I don't know what the results would be in an all-out drag race where dropping the clutch on a RWD has a sure advantage, I was speaking mainly about rolling conditions which would be more consistent with everyday aggressive driving.

Beyond I/H/Hondata for me, I also have the Civic Si's shorter gearing which doubles the fun in the K24A2.


I don't know -- the 328i's 3.0 seemed to have plenty of grunt for a longer 1st gear. If you haven't driven the 6MT version yet, try it out. Then again, I've owned ONLY FWD cars all my life and the 1st gears always have to be longer due to traction issues at WOT.


I agree. I could only imagine a more updated version of the NSX powerplant from the early 90's. A "K30A" powerplant would have an 8200 RPM redline with over 330 HP and even lighter materials.

Although I applaud Honda's stubborness to give way to the displacement game with the lack of a gas-guzzling V8, I didn't like their reluctance to have a RWD model outside of the S2000.

While I'm sure much of it has to deal with the additional cost, lower efficiency of a RWD, and safety, I really think it places a huge handicap on Honda's ability to show off their racing herritage. With only the S2000 in the lineup, the K-series motors have pushed the limits of a FWD sport platform. (Don't even get me started on the whole J-series' lack of technology).

To me, Honda/Acura is at the cross roads. With their engines already exceeding the limits of their niche FWD, they've decided that SH-AWD is the answer. I have my doubts. In a way, it's an oxy-moron to Honda's successful formula of efficiency and value.

We'll have to see how this one plays out....

CarbonGray Earl

I can't say enough how great this combination is. Rather than being just giving the additive benefits as most bolt-ons do, your setup is actually more synergistic than the common I/H/E bolt-ons. Hondata brings that cam crossover down; closer ratios keep you in the powerband. It really surprised me when I we took a ride in your car the other day.

To be honest, the stock TSX times are irrelevant in this case. And as you said, its probably more important to consider how the TSX and 328 would do in daily, sometimes, aggressive driving.

russ_777

One thing I forgot to mention in teh 328i - TSX comparison is the body designs. I don't think you said whether you were looking at the coupe or sedan. I don't particularly like the 3 series sedan body, but the e92 coupe body IMO is one of the most gorgeous, classic looking cars out there. The TSX is just "OK" in that regard - it's not offensive, doesn't look bad, it's a well integrated design, but to me it's just not as sexy as the BMW coupe design. That would be another factor between the two for me.