Buff-Daddy

GREAT! Since you are such a stickler for the facts, I am still waiting for an answer to this one...
And if you are calling me a "dumbass" and I am right, then what does that make you?

rzee

What you don't get is, the braking distance category was won by THE, which is exactly one, AWD with snow tires, the Audi Quattro. The same thing can hardly be said about MB AWD with winter tires setup.

Now try to explain this, group the results by makes and tires, then sort them, here is what you will get :
Audi,Snow => AWD < FWD
Audi,Stock => AWD > FWD
MB, Snow => AWD > FWD
MB, Stock => AWD > FWD
Why is the red one out of the pattern?

larchmont

In case you haven't noticed, I don't know much about this subject, and I'm not capable of seriously debating it. I know only as much as I need to know or have ever needed to know (so far). I don't mean to sound smug about it, in fact I'm feeling very deferential (to people like you and Bob and others who know a lot). And while I'm interested in learning more, I'm not that interested that I'd torture myself about it.

This site has helped me appreciate that most people are like this about most things. We realize we don't know everything, but we feel we know enough for our purposes, and if someone starts trying to lecture us with more knowledge, we change the channel or something. And that's how it should be -- we don't have the time or energy for everything, and also we don't care. Of course I knew all that, but somehow it comes through clearer to me on an internet forum. A good example is all the stuff about leasing vs. buying. I've seen that most of the specific things that people believe about the advantages of leasing are wrong. But when we start clarifying the facts, they don't much care, for a simple reason, I guess: They know that leasing works for them -- and that's enough. And that's how it is for me and this Tires/Snow discussion. I don't know much, but I know enough for my purposes (to date). Here's what I know:

(1) FWD is better than RWD, and by enough of a margin to make a significant difference. I had significant problems with RWD on snow/ice, and haven't had significant problems since restricting myself to FWD cars (even just with all-seasons).

(2) I've assumed that AWD would be still better, but it so happens that all of the times I've been in the car market, there weren't any AWD cars that met my other "criteria," so I never had to think about it. And anyway I've been more than happy with FWD.

(3) I haven't lived anyplace in the last 25 years where there was enough snow/ice to make it really worth giving up the regular tires for snows in the winter, and I don't like the routine (simple though it may be) of switching the tires back and forth, so the fact that FWD cars with regular tires were pretty good through the winter was a great advantage -- and more than good enough.

(4) Detailed discussions of this subject seem to involve a lot of disagreement, even between knowledgeable people (like B-D and Bob). I don't know enough to sort it out, even if I worked at it.

And, coming full circle, I don't even need to, because I already know what I've ever needed to know, and it's not that complicated.


I don't mean to get on your case, B-D -- I'm just using this thread as an excuse for reflecting on how people don't necessarily need to know that much about something, which I find even more interesting than any subject itself. And no, I wasn't calling you a dumbass. That would've been dumb.

Buff-Daddy

The pattern is NOT consistant within the braking test itself, but it IS consistant with all of the other tests and categories because the AWD with snow tires posted the best results.
I'm not playing "my car is better than your car" here, I was just pointing out the benefits of having AWD & SNOW TIRES in a winter climate. If I couldn't have that, I would have FWD with snow tires.

Buff-Daddy

You are a very knowledgable individual and although we argue a lot, I enjoy your posts. As you know, I don't comment on every post, only those that I know something about or feel what I have to say might serve a purpose. I usually only jump on people when they say something without really supporting what they say. I only know about snow tires and drive systems because I just went through the buying process a few months back and live in Minnesota where snow tires can save your life, or at least make it a hell of a lot easier. Don't sweat it, I have to do outside and snow-blow now, we have had about 8" in the last 2 days...

Iceman

Audi Quattro was the first, and is the best, AWD sport/luxury sedan. It does not surprise me to learn that MB's AWD is not better than their RWD in all the tests -- MB has spent a lot of time and money working on their RWD engineering, and MB sedans with AWD are kinda rare. This whole exercise has made me curious about BMW's AWD cars. If MB can't get it right, can BMW?

Buff-Daddy

I agree the Quattro is the best out there right now, but BMW is already quite established in this market. However, what Infiniti just came out with in the G35 is what people have been waiting for. 100% rear wheel drive performance "unless" the system detects slipping and then it kicks into AWD mode automatically. If it works as well as it sounds, that is going to be popular.

dom

Yes the G35's system sounds perfect to me, wheather it works is another story.

rzee

Errr... Check again, Audi Quattro is not better than their own FWD in all tests either. If you compare acceleration test results, MB 4WD is pretty much neck to neck with the Quattro, they just have weaker brakes on their cars.

larchmont

See what I mean?

Sometimes it really is enough to just "sort of" know about something, as long as you're satisfied that you know enough for your own purposes, and just sort of nod at it when the experts kick around the complicated stuff.

Like I said, this stuff isn't that complicated if you're not worried about finding out more than just basically what you need to know.

I can't believe I'm arguing for morons. But then again, I shouldn't be all that surprised.