afici0nad0

audi in #2? never heard of that until now. if that is the case, audi and acura would be at the same luxury level. i can't see that.

i was considering cadillac in the #2 spot also, but, i thought i would just leave them out, and see what others had to say about it.

i agree with you for a #4.

JTC05

Everyday heroes in Car and Driver. The acura finished behind the Accord and the GLI. Acura is a luxury brand when talking about the TL, MDX and RL. The TSX and RSX are far from it. The TSX is Almost identical to a european Accord. change the grill and the emblems and they are identical from the outside. This is not true of any other car any where in the auto industry. Even GM at least changes fenders and hoods. Whoever here on this site does not consider the TSX a rebadged and retuned european Accord is out of there mind. When the TSX first arrived it did well against A4's, Saabs and C230's. One comparison did give the C230 the win though. Times have changed and the auto industry is viscious. New and improved models come out every year and the TSX needs more than just an Accord platform to compete. The Mazda is a direct competitor apples to apples and is not far off.

JTC05

Read the problems forum. Also any stereo mod will tell you to be careful that the plastic scratches up real easy. Just browsing through the problems I found rattles and new consoles needed because of the electrics crapping out. No car is perfect just don't talk it up more than it is. What exactly is the material that you saw peeling off on an Audi. Last Of anything I read was a list a mile long about how year after year they have the best interiors of any car out there. Not from one source either.

ianS

Dun you know TSX interior is totally different than the Euro Accord???? If possible I rather have the EuroR instead of TSX.

BTW, compare C230 to TSX????? wasn't C230 should compare to Sonta, Cavalier? I dun think they should compare to ne Japanese model not even US made.

JTC05

You do know it's a Mercedes, right? C230 supercharged 4cyl.

Kighter

JTC05: I understand the gist of your point here, but it's just not totally true. You cannot just get a Euro-bumper or grill and just plug it into a TSX. And you are forgetting the largest point. The TSX interior is not available on any Accord anywhere in the world. You can find the interior in a Honda - if you buy the "fat american only" Accord exterior - in Japan as the Inspire. Oops did you forget about that one?

Dude, I'm an Audi fan - I own one. Most people here understand what you get for your money with Audis and Beemers and the like. Depending on what day you ask me, my Audi may or may not be worth the premium I paid for it. But to make sweeping generalizations of any sort (that we only like to lease - that Acura as an "entry level" brand is a bad idea) is just stupid. Obviously it's not that stupid because Acura seem to be doing ok. And my TSX is a fucking nice car no matter who is leasing that Mercedes in the driveway next to mine.

Kighter

Old info. Current C230 is a NA 2.5L V6.

MSRP $29,975 excludes all taxes, title/documentary fees, registration, tags, Mercedes-Benz Dealer prep, labor and installation charges, insurance, optional equipment and accessories, certificate of compliance or non-compliance fees, and finance charges.

Engine 2.5L 24-valve V-6
Net Power 201 hp @ 6,200 rpm
Net Torque 181 lb-ft @ 2,700 - 5,000 rpm

Wow that sounds like a deal - equipped like my TSX for only 40k. (BTW, that car leases for 36 months for $40 more per month than if you buy it (60 months)). No wonder we all like to lease.

Sounds like a great deal to me!

JTC05

The thing here is that most don't realize what you get for the extra money. They are quick to bash any brand that they are inferior to. I don't mean Acura as a whole, just the TSX. Anytime another japanese brand is brought up they feel that it shouldn't be a comparison. Acura is a different class then Subaru or Mazda. What I am clearing up is that the TSX is not any different. It wears an Acura badge but it is still purely Honda underneath of it. Yes the interior is different, but most of everything else is the same. And I am not saying that all german car owners lease, but that alot of people do. And when you can spend a small amount more for a better car, most opt for it. This is why long term reliability is not always a factor in justifying the Acura strength vs. BMW or Audi. I don't know if you had any problems with your Audi, but I haven't. I enjoy my TSX for what it is, but I would not put it in the same class as my A4. One costs more and I can clearly see why. I am not in any denial about my TSX's honda roots.

dom

Yet it contnues to sell extremly well and increases sales month over month compared to the previous year.

Yup, doesn't compete at all.

amadeus303

iTrader: (2)

Automobile magazine did a 10 car comparo of $30k sports sedans...

The Mazda6 and the TSX weren't just compared... they were grouped together based on their similarities. I came from a 6, and while there's a reaon I went to an Acura, I wouldn't flinch in going back to one. There's no doubt that the interior materials quality is top notch in the TSX vs the 6, but in pure stock form, I also feel that the 6 was much better from a performance standpoint, particularly the brakes. The pedal feel without mods felt tighter than the TSX. I think there are many reasonable, somewhat objective opinions on this board, but I also think some of you blokes discount Mazda because you're "Acura snobs". As far as reliability goes, the Ford Duratec V6 engine is considered one of the more reliable ones around - and I'll be the first to admit that having a Ford engine under the hood was the biggest reason I almost DIDN'T get one

I'm no Mazda mark... Until then, all I'd ever owned/driven was a Honda.

vitocorleone

Yep, it did indeed finish behind those. Except that the GLI (or any VW) isn't even a consideration to anyone concerned with reliability and the Accord isn't a consideration to anyone concerned with individuality or fun (at least I don't find the Accord "fun" because it's too easy... I'd have bough the TL if the Accord was appealing to me). To me, no car on the market beats the TSX in terms of balanced overall package for the money (ye ol' statement of "the TSX is not the best at anything except being good at everything"). Now, most people want either a nicer package overall or want to emphasize one or two qualities over others, which is why the TSX is a low-volume seller. Yes, it's a Honda, and most people on this board are NOT under any kind of illusion about what we own despite what you implied.

The TSX is an entry-level sport-lux sedan. Period. You trying to convince other people that it isn't looks about as likely as someone else convincing you it is.

sauceman

Sorry dude, but again you're wrong. Lexus ES is plain and simply built off the Camry. Same for the large LX470, built off the ex-landcruiser. G35C is nothing more than a Skyline, the G20 used to be nothing more than a Primera. The Cadillac Catera (GM) was nothing more than a lowly Opel Omega (Not even the fenders or hood was changed). You get the point (hopefully).
Why does the TSX still win against new and up-to-date competitors, according to magazines then?

And how is an Accord Euro in any way inferior to a BMW 316? Or even a 320? Nobody in Europe will even argue the Accords compete against series 3, A4s and C-Class, because BMW, Audi and MB are generalists as well. I suspect you think they are high end constructors because all you see here are the high-end models, but the truth is we don't even get half of their lineup available in Europe.

JTC05

The C230 that was compared against the TSX was the supercharged 4cyl. We were comparing road tests. The sticker was right at $30k. For you to take the actual lease payment from the Mercedes web site then you are a jack ass. The website never gives you what you will get at the dealer. My A4 leased at $375/mo. Tsx is $325/mo. Audi is better equipped and has AWD and a wagon. And I don't know what else you put into the C-class but at $38k it is much better equipped than the TSX and is by far a better car. Mercedes are always on the high side when it comes to pricing, but they kind of earned it. The new c-class is more on par with the TL any way.

JTC05

The TSX has not won a comparo in a while. Last one it was in it finished 3rd. And since those cars do not exist here then there is no sense comparing them.

vitocorleone

Yes, except Mercedes have the worst-rated reliability of any "luxury" marque.

I was going to buy one until I learned Mercedes is almost as bad as a VW. Talk about buying into marketing! I still think think Mercedes are just incredibly beautiful cars, though the latest C-series is starting to border on cheesey with some of the external detailing.

I hope the german cars continue to improve, or at least the others catch up to the "average" reliability of BMW as I'd actually almost consider owning one at that point. Well, maybe once they catch up to the last-place Japanese auto-maker in reliability: Mazda

JTC05

Also, there are many shared platforms in the auto industry. The TSX was not that but almost a direct rebadge. Going all the way back to the Catera to find something as close is pretty bad. All of the others listed have fully different interiors, not just dashes, and different body panels.

JTC05

Be careful of labeling them as "Acura Snobs" they will all gang up. I'm glad to see that you consider them as competitors as they are. You should see the materials used in an Audi if you think the TSX is top notch.

sauceman

Funny, there's just as many, if not more people renting their GMs, Fords and Chryslers. Not necessarily for the reasons you stated previously.

Clearly, you're in a world apart. A quick search here will reveal you that many members here had issues with their Audis. A few of my friends have Audis, they also have reliability issues.

I don't think anyone here denies Acura's roots and the fact that the TSX is an identical twin to the Accord Euro. As for my personnal experience with driving an A4, I was sorely disappointed. Yes, the ride quality is smoother, but that's about it. The engine was anemic (1.8T) especially below boost, couldn't handle 5 passengers, rear legroom was cramped at best (even for ladies), and the seat upholstery was of poor quality (vinyl all around). And the shifting was up to VW standards. The ride was comfy, but nowhere any close to being sporty. It was more like a Buick.


At any rate, that was my perception, which is just as good as yours. Clearly though, your perception and understanding of things discussed in this thread is marginal. What's worst is you're trying to force it down everyone's throat as fact.

Grow up please.

sauceman

You know exactly why I talked about the Catera. The other cars I mentionned have more than shared platforms. Still a variance in body works will change nothing in the dynamic performance of a vehicle.

But I see you want to argue over words and I'm not going into that. In fact I might even close this thread because you've made it turn to shit. (And I was even dumb enough to jump on the bandwagon )

sauceman

We were talking about Mazdaspeed6 eating TSX meat. Let's get back on this topic.

JTC05, if you want to argue your point to the ground about every other cars of the world, go do it in Car Talk.

JTC05

I'm not trying to force anything down anyones throat. Just stop being snobs about what your car isn't. You guys drive alot of Buicks I guess. So far the A4 has been compared to it and the Lexus has been compared to it. The people that lease GM's, Fords and Chryslers do so because they feel that hese are better cars. They actually like them. The same people who would call the TSX a Japanese piece of crap. And I am not going to deny any past reliability issues with Audi, but just read the problems and fixes here to see that this car is not without problems. Everyone needs to cut the holier than though attitude about the TSX. It's an OK car and thats it. Comparing room between an A4 and a TSX is splitting hairs. The vinyl you speak of was a base model, and has been compared to some others leather. Most notabaly the TSX's. That is why you could get a 1.8T FWD for a $25k starting price when they first came out. I guess your friend cheaped out.

dom

JTC05

I wasn't the first to bring up other brands. I just clarified that the TSX and Mazda are in the same class and to stop denying that it is a Honda.

JTC05

That was a pretty nice buick that lapped the track faster than a G35 and 325ix, Only the Subaru spec B beat it and it was only by a couple of tenths despite the larger engine and higher horsepower.

dom

What are you talking about? Link?

JTC05

Road and Track tested AWD sedans. A4 won. For a comparison they even ran a RWD G35 around the track and it couldn't hang with the Subie or the Audi. Was even slower than the G35awd. I guess that is Audi showing it's Buick ride quality. The MazdaSpeed 6 was also tested but they seemed to have had a bum model. Was no where up to speed of previous ones tested. So I guess the Mazda is ok to be compared to a BMW, Lexus, G35 and Audi but isn't good enough for a TSX.

sauceman

Sorry man, that wasn't directed at you, nor in a pejorative way.

That being said, this thread is done.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

IAT

Just so we're all clear, JCT05, your Audi is nothing more than a family grocery getter in Europe, so get your inflated head out of your pompous ass and quit acting like nobody here knows what they're talking about.