schalliol

Sorry, Pacific Coastal Highway (CA-1 most of the way).

mrdoug

Man, I just spent the last half hour going thu this entire thread. On one hand I loved it because I'm a MT enthusiast and can't stand the fact that new cars come out that interest me and then I find out that they only come in AT - what a disappointment that can be. I was stuck with my wifes' '94 Mazda 626 with AT for the past 3 years and it finally broke down, thank God, so I just got a red TSX w/o nav w/light brown interior 6 spd. and I love it. It's so much more fun to drive again and, yes, I agree with the majority of this group that it's all about the feeling. Sure, better performance may be an argument if you're an efficient MT shifter, but at bottom, it's about the feeling of having PERSONAL control over the DRIVING experience (not the A/C experience, which was a silly analogy used by Shalliol to buttress his point). Also, Shalliol didn't really fully and adequately respond to the point raised by those who brought up the hypothetical prospect of an automatic steering wheel that would do a better job than a "manual" steering wheel. If what Shalliol says about him not understanding the passion for MT is true, then he also wouldn't understand someone who would prefer the manaul steering wheel over the automatic, which he would naturally prefer because it's all about the PRECISION and BEAUTY of the technology, which is apparently what gives him his thrill in driving. If he's truly committed to his point of view and really DOESN'T understand us MT'ers, then he should readily admit that he would not only welcome but will PREFER AS (Automatic Steering) for all the same reasons he prefers AT and doesn't understand the preference for MT. I suppose that means he'll prefer to be beamed from one place to another a la Star Trek rather than engaging in the driving experience because he'll be getting his rocks off on the technology of it all.
Now, not to beat a dead horse (actually, that horse is LONG since dead in my opinion, so it doesn't matter if I beat on it some more), but the analogy that came to me on the subject originated with my younger sister, who happens to be that rare female who loves MT for all the reasons you've all been mentioning. Our very-beloved mother has never been able to understand it (she actually sounds like a less sophisticated version of Shalliol on the subject LoL!). In response to my mother's bafflement (similar to Shalliol's) as to how anyone could REALLY prefer an MT and why, my sister tried to explain by citing something my mother had once said about DRIVING across the country being so much more rewarding than FLYING because you get to see the sights and experience the land and its variations, even though flying is clearly a lot easier and efficient. My sister said, well Mom, that's sort of why some of us prefer to control the engine as it gives one a more organic driving experience. Not a perfect analogy, but makes the point.
The analogy that comes to me to fairly well illustrate this point is cooking or carpentry or home-brewing - According to Shalliol's reasoning, he really wouldn't understand why a connoiseur of food or furniture or beer or wine would want to engage in the toil and inefficiency of actually COOKING his own food or BREWING his own beer or handcrafting his own furniture unless he could produce an end product that was superior to something he could buy in the store, which is so much more EFFICIENT and EFFORTLESS!! Now, I suppose Shalliol will say..well, that's different because THOSE are arts unto themselves or something like that, which really highlights our point that Shalliol still seems not to "get it!" That is, we MT enthusiasts DO consider the ability to personally, directly from our brains, CONTROL the engine's gears without, for the most part, having to hit the brakes. Apparently, he just doesn't see the "art" in this, and thus his differing outlook. To him, I gather that shifting is a chore, which is probably pretty revealing vis-a-vis the issue of how adept he is at it.
Another point: why do you suppose it is that it's people like my mother (who's a great lady, I should hasten to add) and her senior citizen friends ALL buy automatics and wouldn't TOUCH manuals???? Even though they practically all grew up on manuals?? Do you think that it's because they are really INTO the driving EXPERIENCE??? (That was sarcastic of course!) Nah, I doubt it - it's because they are NOT into the driving experience except to the extent that it offers them LUXURY and COMFORT, which is what an AT offers, as was mentioned by a previous post.
Anyway, one thing that impressed me as I read the thread was how much everyone was "piling on" Shalliol, and I must say he was game and fought back pretty hard and with heart, so I give him a lot of credit! By the way, Shalliol, I sincerely doubt you'll find many threads on ANY site where people are passionately posting on the virtues and superior driving experience offered by AT - and that alone says a lot, doesn't it?
Thanks for the entertainment everyone! I feel like I've found a home!

mrdoug

Oh, i should add that OF COURSE if I had to drive in stop and go Washington Beltway traffic all the time (I'm in Annapolis, MD), then I would just give up and get an AT, no doubt about it. But because that kind of thing makes up the minority of my driving, I have the opportunity to let it fly most of the time! And it REALLY is a LOT more fun - the DRIVING your machine vs. just RIDING in your machine analogy is pretty on point.

mrdoug

Maybe we should design a new t-shirt that reads: "It's an MT thing - you wouldn't get it!"

Dan Martin

Look familiar?



I actually drove from Toronto to San Jose at the end of August so I know that road pretty well. I'd still prefer manual on it.....

schalliol

You do realize that the people who feel passionate when someone says that their transmission might be dying in the market (original poster), that more MT people are going to click, right? I believe I stated my feelings about control multiple times...Intended to be silly, but I later gave one that had more control no one addressed, being able to independantly apply power to each of the two (or four) wheels from the powerplant, which I argue would make a more controlled driving experience than the clutch control.

Calm down buddy, I feel like you're trying to persecute me from your tone. Too, I don't have all day to respond to everything so I didn't respond to all the details in every single post, and neither did people to mine....so for the automatic steering, then of course that's even more silly than the manual A/C control because you're not even directing the orientation of the car. If the goal were to ride in a car that was nice I would be wowed by the automatic steering from the back seat (as would you, if you're like most people). Power-assist was discussed though at length. My issue with the steering (power-assist) is that it wasn't originally considered something appropriate for a sporty car and now it is. My argument was that the clutch/gas control was similar to this. It may not be a perfect analogy, but the logic you jump to to say that I would want a car that steers itself is flawed. The premise of the argument is that you can better control your experience by using an SMG. If you really read my responses then you'd know how much I like to drive and for you to make a suggestion otherwise is not sensible. If you have some problem with my logic, don't contradict what I say to be true, I am certainly not lying about my feelings on this issue. However, I might prefer to be "beamed" to Chicago to have lunch with my brother and back home for work, but I explicitly stated that I often drive without a destination in mind.

We've discussed at length the feeling, you're bringing no new thoughts with your analogy beyond what what the other members eloquently stated.

Thanks for more bashing, if you're going to bash me, please spell my name correctly, it's only noted about 20 times in the thread. No, that would be like saying I'd rather ride in the car. There are a lot of things that you could do to control the car (my power to the wheels concept for example), and gearing is important, however the gas-clutch-gas I believe can be replaced like the power assist is in steering.Maybe you should stay a newbie, it's better to discuss without attacking the person. Do you want to discuss or not? I don't know how many times I noted the ability to control gears is quite useful, many, and in fact I do control the geering, just not all the time.No question that driving an AT allows someone who wants to to relax, go full auto and zone out. Not my thing, but whatever floats your boat.I appreciate it, but your tone above seems to note more personal-type attacks (by virtue of your comparisons mainly). I wouldn't want to misunderstand your intentions, am I?I have no doubt, when you go full-auto, you don't have to think about anything else and it might seem that of course it's that way. Same thing with the dishwasher, most people just love using the dishwasher over washing dishes, but my grandma a manual dishwasher loves doing it in person, even though she has an auto washer.

mrdoug

That's a beautiful sight (and site!), Dan - thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, I'd have to rack up a good 3,000 miles to have the pleasure. I've done it before, but not in a car that was any fun. But there are some good country roads here through horse country that are pretty good, so I'm not complaining. Hey, by the way, is that Shalliol I see in the distance careening off that bridge while trying to brake through the turn????

mrdoug

Hey, Schalliol (and sorry about the spelling), I apologize if I was too caustic for you - it's more in the nature of spirited, zinging debate - nothing was meant to offend and if I did (I guess I apparently did), I sincerely apologize for that. Certainly this is not a subject worthy of that, I think you'd agree! So at the risk of going overboard with my profuse apologies, I hope you will accept that I meant everything in fun, not in rancor. I think it's the lawyer in me (yes, I'm one of THOSE!).
Sure, I understand your points, and I did read through everything, albeit quickly, so I was bound to miss some of the nuances provided by you and others. I was sort of trying to cover everything in one post as quickly as possible, which is why certain parts of it might have been a little ham-handed. Mea culpa.
And i have no doubt I'd love my TSX with auto ALMOST as much as with MT, but NOT QUITE, and there's the rub. But, as some country says (we're not allowed to say French these days, you know), vive la difference! Which is why it always disappoints me to hear (because it appears to be true, unfortunately) that MTs are not being offered in more and more cars, particularly and especially in the States. In my experience, Europeans tend to be much more passionate driving enthusiasts than Americans (and they have to deal with more traffic jams that we do, by the way), and they seem to prefer MTs and don't really understand why Americans don't. When I was in Switzerland a few years ago, I rode in many a car in and around the Alps, and literally NO ONE had an AT, and they have to deal with roads that equal or exceed the PCH in hairpin, spine-tingling driving experience.
So, anyway, I hope you'll take my comments in the friendly, spirited, give and take way in which they were meant. I have certainly enjoyed reading everything you have contributed and, frankly, it's probably you who has kept this thread alive more than anyone else, so THANKS for the entertainment!

SteVTEC

oooOOoOoOOoOoooo....a manual tranny love thread!


Why I love manual tranny's.


CONTROL: A manual tranny gives you much more control than an automatic does. YOU choose the gear that you want to be in, and you can get to whatever gear you want at any time. You are not limited by what some computer says is "safe". Even a SportShift auto has its limitations. With the clutch you can control the shift firmness and speed from as slow as an automatic to tire chirping fast. You can effectively engine brake and reduce wear and tear on your brakes as well. Also, when you are pulling out into traffic, you are never left guessing whether or not you'll get that kickdown from the auto. There is no second guessing because the car is always doing exactly what you tell it to. You have full control.

RESPONSIVENESS: I just hate the slushy feeling of an automatic with that liquid coupled torque converter. It takes all of the fun and responsivness of the car away. The direct mechanical coupling of a manual gives MUCH better responsiveness. When you stab the throttle for some power you are accelerating instantly, not waiting for the torque converter to stall at whatever your moving speed is, build fluid pressure and finally start accelerating. An AT will just never match the responsiveness of an MT.

POWER / EFFICIENCY: All other things being equal (gearing), a manual tranny will always be more efficient than a manual. The torque converter in an AT and fluid coupling is a lossy device that a manual does not suffer. Manual cars will get about 5-7% more power to the drive wheels on the dyno than an AT car. This means that they will accelerate and perform better. It also means that because the drivetrain is more efficient, a manual will get better fuel mileage (assuming equal gearing). On a car like the TSX, the Acura has taken advantage of the higher efficiency by putting in more aggressive gearing. You can have more aggressive gearing and still meet your fuel mileage targets because of the efficiency advantage. A TSX 6MT would simply blow away a 5AT in a race.

FUN TO DRIVE: I don't like to be "driven". I like to DRIVE. Driving is something I enjoy doing, and I like to be as involved as possible. A manual tranny lets you do that. And because you have 100% control you learn and get to know your car a lot better. You know what it can and can't do, and it helps you to become a better driver.



Now to schalliol

You are saying that AT drivers are safer than MT drivers because an MT driver's attention is distracted by having to concentrate on shifting? I just skimmed through most of the thread, but driving an MT is like second nature to me. I don't even have to think about it. My attention is not distracted at all. If anything, I would argue that MT drivers are SAFER than AT drivers because yes, it does require an extra hand. However, that means that an MT driver is much less likely to be distracted by REAL safey issues such as talking on the phone while driving, reading the freaking paper, or putting on makeup like a lot of these other idiots do in the DC area. My last car as an AT and I hated it, but I could be on the phone from DC to Philadelphia if I wanted to be. With my current car, an MT (not a TSX though), I prefer to hang up and drive.


I believe your other point was that on some mountain winding road the AT driver will win? uhhh...sorry, don't think so. That was also based on an MT driver being more distracted, but that isn't the case. Driving an MT and all of the things associated with it are simply second nature. When I drive my car, I do not consciously think, okay, let go of gas, press clutch pedal, more shifter thingamabob from lower left to upperr middle, release clutch pedal, push on gas again. When I want a 2-3 shift, it just happens and I honestly don't even think about it. So now that we've established that and that the MT driver is at no disadvantage, now it comes down to car vs car. The MT puts more power to the ground, the gearing is more aggressive, gives the driver more control, and it'll even handle better because it is 60 pounds lighter than the automatic (manny trannys are lighter), and that makes the handling more balanced.


In summary, MT ownz j0o



Manual forevAr!!!1

larchmont

Boy, I never thought it would happen -- a thread that's too anal even for me.

So I decided just to look at this pic and forget the rest:

Actually, a lot of interesting things. I'm appreciating Schalliol and MrDoug a lot. And thanks, DanMartin, for the great pic -- a nice diversion.

schalliol

You got it, I understand!

It's fine, this is probably one of the very few posts where we're going into details, and they're hard to process easilyGlad you got the MT then. While thinking about the discussion I went out tonight and kept it in semi-auto the whole time (I don't have an MT TSX to use, so it'll have to do). As I do whenever I use the sport shift, I notice a big (in the scope of driving time) lag between shifts (not a shocker there), but notice that it is fun to feel the light lurch forward when you do the shift. I can't place why this feels fun, it's kind of like a video game, it's instant gratification for an action you do, but in the scheme of things I think it takes away from my (notice everyone I didn't say yours!!!!!!) driving experience. With the fast paddle mounted SMG, I think I'd feel different about it because of the response time. (BTW, the SMG DB9 Aston Martin is 0.2sec faster than the Conventional Manual DB9 Aston Martin)Just a note there for clarification: I'm noting PCH is hardly spine-tingling. It's a great highway, probably one of the best in many ways, but it doesn't compare to the road I was referring too (probably 6x the curves on average and much more elevation changes through about 5 different ecosystems from desert to readwoods, etc.)You got it!

schalliol

Yep! I realize that you don't know you're thinking about it, but you are. You're not thinking about it like th 17 year old mentioned he does, but in the back of your mind. It's not the best analogy, but if you're computer is a microprocessor, some processing bandwidth is taken up by the sense to need to shift, the thought of getting it done, the control of your physical activities to get it shifted i the controlling way you indicate. This is a fact not to be disputed, as you cannot do anything without your brain working out what you should do. It doesn't work exactly like the processor, but it's the same baisc idea. The actual level of impact would require a scientific study.It seems you're contradicting yourself, sure you don't have to do much thinking to do a standard shift of yours, but if you're going to very carefully do a special shift where you're using juuust the right process of clutch/accell/switch, you have to think about it.MT and AT drivers both choose to do other things than just driving, and to imply that an AT driver will do more because they have another hand adds something to the equation that is not part of it. We're talking about the transmission and the user and we have to be using "control" subjects. However, do you ever utilize a cupholder? Most people do. What do you do if you have a full drink in one hand and you have a split second to downshift and power away from an oncoming 18-wheeler? Hopefully you drop the drink and screw the interior of the car, shift and get out of danger's way, but with an AT you need not worry about that because if you must, you can have one hand on the wheel, but it would be best to have both hands on the wheel in evasive driving? I'd like to see stats. of accidents between AT vs. MT, maybe another day.Ok, so you're safer that way, but don't blame the tranny for being careless driver before. It's always been up to you! Besides, most people these days use ear pieces so they still will talk with the MT. Personally, if I have to communicate on the road (<0.5% of the time I'm in the car), when I'm at a stop light (not while going) I'll send off a quick email or AIM on my hiptop, and not occupy my mind while driving.So you're saying you want an SMG with no clutch pedal, right? You're not thinking about it, which means you're not using all that clutch control to infinite detail. You've said this no thinking thing twice, so you really must want that SMG.We have not established this (see above).Yeah, there are advantages there in this config, but I think that I could overcome them with the inefficiencies I perceive you have to undertake. At any rate, the Aston Martin DB9 SMG is 0.2 sec faster to 60 than the conventional manual, so this inflection point is upon us. I guess no one wants to comment on being able to choose where power is applied, which I noted twice.Yeah, that's it.

I did prepare something special for you in the spirit of all of this

schalliol

Great, that's fun. The whole point is to have fun with this and learn something, and I most certainly have learned the way that a numbe of people feel about the MT. Now I know how you can have so many posts here quickly!! I like that you guys are quick to respond, but it means that lots of time is taken up

mrdoug

By the way, Schalliol, we have almost exactly the same car. Only diff I can see is mine's an MT and yours has the mmonroof wind deflector and mine doesn't. But isn't the color scheme (milano red, parchment with wood grain) downright awesome?? So you see, we're more on the same page than might appear! Once again..have enjoyed your posts tremendously. It's a great subject (MT vs. AT), and I've been bottled up about it for years, so this is kind of cathartic for me! Thanks.

mrdoug

And next time I'm out in CA with my TSX (who knows?) I'll take you up on your challenge! Would be fun regardless of who wins, right? (Just give me one practice run first, OK?)

rb1

Too flat. I'll see you that pic and raise you one of the Cabot Trail in Nova Scotia...

schalliol

Not to get off topic, but I think the thread needs a bit more comparison between two members who discussed the way we did: I think the wind def. is a nice color contrast to the car and it's not too bulbous like most cars have, but sporty (my opinion). My option list is in my sig, do you have the wood grain kit too to compliment what came with the car?Yes! I think it looks more up-market than the black/metal lookGreat, me too.Sure thing. It's over some fairly low mountains from the S.F. Bay to the Ocean and probably takes 1:30:00 to drive it normally. I never would recommend racing on public roads , but if someone could get it all monitored some how to ensure no one was on the road, then it would just our fault if we end up at the bottom of a valley. There is a race track you can rent in Monterey, but it would be far less fun. I am really happy with driving the road at safe speeds, it's a blast. My wife and I will usually do the drive over to the ocean like this and then up PCH to Montara where we'd eat at The Chart House on the ocean and sometimes get to see whales. Then we'd usually take a nice highway to Fwy 280 (beautiful scenery) and take that back to S.V. I'm a fan!

larchmont

Wow -- check out that little roller-coaster loop on the right.

mrdoug

Some of those "peaks" look pretty cool, could get slightly airborne if you're not careful and, at the very least, your stomach would! One of these days....
Btw, Larchmont, although there's probably too much traffic to do it right (except maybe in the middle of the night) I would think that some of the parkways around you would be fun with a M/T, like the Bronx River, Saw Mill, Hutchinson and even parts of the Taconic. I'm originally from upstate NY (Schenectady) so I know those roads pretty well from traveling back and forth to NYC and in and around W-chester County.

SteVTEC

Sorry. I am not even remotely distracted by use of a manual tranny. I don't think all of the people that autocross are even remotely distracted either. Why do they all use manual transmissions? On my drive in to work this morning, I can not even remotely recall what gear I was in and when or how I was shifting becuase I honestly do not even think about it. Go ahead and conduct your study. For the puproses of THIS discussion, you can assume that a manual tranny does not distract the driver. If you actually knew how to drive one you would realize that.


It seems I am not because I just stated that manual driving requires no conscious thought. Like I said, I don't even think about it. All necessary operations of driving a manual are hard-wired into my brain and I can carry on a full conversation with a passenger or even think about whatever else I want without needing to dedicate any conscious thought to driving a manual. It's sorta like breathing. It just happens. Again, if you actually drove a manual or even knew how, you would realize that.

Take my fiancee for example. She does not drive a manual but could in an emergency if she really needed to because I taught her the basics. But because she is not familiar with it, it is not hard-wired into her brain and she would really have to concentrate on it to actually drive it. She would have to run drivemanual.exe and it would take 70% of her CPU time (very distracted) whereas the same process is handled on "my" onboard computer via an ASIC that does not load down the main processor at all. :P


Double standard.

You said MT drivers are more likely to be unsafe because they are "distracted" (which they are not) than AT drivers. Therefore, I am allowed to disagree with an equal argument. MT driver's extra hand is kept busy by shifting and is related to driving. AT driver's extra hand is not busy and can be distracted by phone useage, reading a paper, or putting on makeup which is a SEVERE distraction.


Again, if you actually knew how to drive a manual and drove one frequently you would realize how silly of an argument this is. A manual driver does not loaf around with their right hand holding a drink. If there is a drink, it stays in the cupholder because they need that hand for shifting. And if you have yourself in a sitution where you need to desperately out-accelerate an 18-wheeler that just goes to show that you were not paying attention in the first place because that should never happen. Put down the damn drink and pay attention like us MT drivers!

And by the way, when you have a manual transmission you do not just go to the highest possible gear that you can get to all the time. Running through town at 40 mph I am in 3rd gear. If a light turns yellow or I need a sudden burst of speed, all I have to do is bury my right foot while holding my drink to get all the acceleration I need with no downshift required. By the time the revs wind out 3rd I'll be breaking every speed limit in the country anyways.

That's right, the AT affords you the convenience of not dropping the drink just to downshift. Just like it affords you the convenience of not paying attention as much to the point where you can get yourself into extremely dangerous situations like you just described.

uhhmm......no

Like I said, driving a manual is like breathing. You don't have to think about it for it to happen. But if you'd like to make yourself breathe in a specific way you can. Why the hell would I want to switch modes on the computer controlled SMG just to change the shifting pattern if I could just bloody do it my damned self via my built-in hardware ASIC?


I am a manual driver. You are not. I have established this for you. Thanks.

The inefficiencies that you perceive do not exist. Again, if you were a manual driver you would realize that but you are not.

The SMG is not a conventional automatic. And I must have missed your other argument. Given the choice of an SMG or conventional manual, I would take the conventional any day. Anytime a silly computer gets in between you and the machine, part of the fun is lost. I like my nice cable actuated throttle, direct linkage shifter, manual clutch, and my "SteVTEC on-board ASIC" controlled shift logic for said manual transmission. So when I come flying into a corner way too fast and blip the throttle for a rev-matched 3-2 downshift for engine braking and then go ripping out of the corner executing my 2-3 upshift at the exact moment and execute it with such speed that the tires chirp, it is ME that accomplished that, not some stupid computer in the car that a BMW engineer in some lab wrote the program for.

aaaaww...how cute. You know you want a manual. Why don't you just learn how to drive one? It's not THAT hard. Anybody can learn the basics in an hour and then it's just practice "with conscious thought" until you finally get it and you no longer need to think about it. Better control, better power, greater efficiency, more fun to drive. You'll need to put down that drink you're holding most of the time though. That's the only real requirement.

larchmont

Yeah -- the TSX is great fun on those even just with the sport-shift of the AT, or, for that matter, just with the AT.

Funny, I think we have 3 sets of discussions going on here. Cool. Robert Altman's movies are supposed to be like that, can't understand any of them. Including "Popeye" which sucked.

dnb

I agree. In fact, I find an AT to be more distracting; I sometimes plead with the torque converter to hurry up with its business.

The MT is like breathing. Pedal-snick-pedal and you're done.

schalliol

I thought we went throught this. It's scientifically impossible for your assertion to be true, but I will take it that it doesn't take much that you're aware of. However, if you're not really thinking about it, then there's no benefit to this incredible control mentioned. Control without thought is wasted.

Sigh, read the thread. I've driven enough with it that it doesn't require much thought at all, I understad that you don't notice the thought required to make the shift, but you must acknowledge that there is a thought process going on that you're not aware of. This occupies your mind a bit [REALLY!!!], the question is whether the multi-tasking that is going on with your subconscious thought process causes a substantial impact. Can't you see this is what I'm saying??

Unfortunately, you don't have a separate ASIC just for this, end of story, your CPU Time is going to be some, it might be 1%, we haven't established this. Oh, Windows user, eh? Now I see where your logic comes from What a flawed logic. Read my other post to the similar issue. You are making a false assumption that because you have an AT that you will be doing something else. :P I've seen numerous people who are using phones and doing other dangerous things that have an MT, that's WAY more dangerous.Of course out-accelerating an 18-wheeler is easy, I'm refering to one that runs out 90° to you. That should never happen is a TERRIBLE excuse, even the most aware driver can have emergency situations, which most of are correctable with evasive driving.HAHAHAHhahahhahaha, riiight. MT drivers so frequently do at least drinking. You're a funny guy. While I'm in 1st or 2nd and you're in my dust

You could with the AT, but it is a false assumption that I (and everyone else) does this. WHEN the MT drivers do, oooops Boom.

Hah, if you had one. :P The fact that you're calling it like an ASIC shows me that you just want don't to feel this control, but want to feel like you're a better somehow than other people...were you a bully as a kid? Scientifically impossible.Apparently!

Yup, you just like feeling as though you're better AT drivers for this reason. Do you choose to wash your dishes manually like my grandma? It's the same thing.

I do know and it is easy. I barely have any conscious thought at all when I shift one.With the high end (i.e. Aston Martin DB9) now, you have better power and greater efficiency with the SMG, the specs prove it. The control though is harder to measure. The distance will only increase here, the power and efficiency will be WAY better soon and this stuff will filter down. As for the fun, if you aren't into driving and like to play with a toy machine (look watch me put it in 2nd, YAY, look Mom, 3rd! whoooo ), maybe it is more fun for you.I'll make sure to avoid your area because if you're ever moving and holding that drink…

ClutchPerformer

OK, I said I wasn't going to post again, but I have to say that this is BS and impossible. The fact that you have to run the solenoids, etc. to actually shift the gears and couple/uncouple the clutch (instead of using your own hands and feet) takes some amount of power. There's no way it's more mechanically efficient than a conventional manual. At best (which is impossible), it's the same.

mrdoug

Man, oh man, do I love this thread! Just when I think it's all played out, it lurches forward again like a clumsy M/T driver! Good going, everyone, much fun!

mrdoug

I should have added...." but it doesn't stall!"

schalliol

Thanks for the clarification, it should consume more electrical power, but that's basically a free source to the car.

chrisalberts

Here's the mistake in *your* logic. The human brain, within a relevant range, does NOT have a finite capacity. It is more than possible to train the brain to make actions that are chosen very similar to simple reflexes that don't require conscious thought. The decision of when to shift is where the control comes in, the action of shifting can be almost unconscious. The point being you're in the gear you need to be when you need to be and can coordinate that with your other actions. You're not at the whim of some other system (automatic or computer controlled clutchless manual) that may not always respond predictably.

The suggestion that an AT driver is better or safer because they're not distracted by the need to shift is ridiculous. Humans are NOT computers with limited CPU cycles to work with and that's that.

Agreed that the assumption an AT user is doing something else would be fatuous, however I disagree with the fact that using a phone/holding a drink on an MT is "WAY more dangerous". It can be equally dangerous for either.

If I need to accelerate to escape a dangerous situation, then I'd rather be in a manual than an automatic. If I need to accelerate hard, I have to hit the kickdown pedal, wait for the transmission to decide to shift, then wait for it to execute its shift. I 100% guarantee you that I can complete this process faster in a manual. If you're talking clutchless manual (SMG) then I still have to decide to shift and then tell it to with my hand. This *might* be marginally faster, but won't make the difference between getting out of the situation alive or not.

I realize you're responding to a specific poster here, but it's not a matter of who's better. Just because you choose to take advantage of automation does not make you more evolved or better either. Suggesting that liking MTs makes a person like your grandma is an insult to neither, but says a lot about you.

How does the transmission affect the power of the motor? Please post a link to the specs that "prove" this.

Not really. I've already explained why automatics are often slower where it counts, but here's where SMGs fall down - they typically do a crappy job of lower speed, non-aggressive driving. They either are tuned for rapid shifting or not and changing that (if it is possible) requires manual input. When I am driving my stick, I can choose at ANY TIME to make a given shift slower and smooth, or faster and aggressive. I don't have to decide at the beginning of my drive and stick to it, I can adjust as I see fit on a shift by shift basis. As the SMGs only tend to shift faster than decent drivers when they're in the more aggressive modes, than unless I can predict an emergency situation, its rapid shifting capability isn't any use to me. THAT's what people like me mean by control that I don't think you're picking up on.

Oh come on! I am not about to start trading insults but it seems like you're the one with a chip on your shoulder here. It's a simple choice - and the exercise of that choice does not indicate a better or worse, smarter or stupider person. If you like your AT, and it suits your driving style then terrific, enjoy it. But don't even try to imply that my liking of a manual makes me a show off or not a "real" driver.

That said, while there are always exceptions to this, the generalization that AT drivers are less likely to be enthusiasts does hold true. But that doesn't mean that you can't be an enthusiast if you have AT, it just means that you made an informed choice based on your own needs.

Also, MT's last longer (clutch excluded, but that's a wearing part, just like a brake rotor), require less maintenance, are far less complex and cheaper to replace, and are much much better when you're having car trouble. If your AT goes out you're screwed. If my clutch fails, I can still drive my car, if I lose a gear, I can still drive.

C. <-- clearly has way too much time on his hands this afternoon

SteVTEC

You're splitting hairs. The control is there that an automatic lacks.

No, I'm not going to read the whole thread because your arguments bore me. The argument that an AT will be faster because an MT driver will be more distracted with "that shifting process" is laughable. Yeah, take my fiancee who will be 70% occupied with controlling the shifts and an AT will be faster. Not for somebody that knows what they're doing well enough that they don't even really need to think about it.

It was an analogy that you're taking literally. End of story.

In other words, not enough conscious thought to be distracted.

According to you maybe. But you have no logic at all. Your arguments make no sense and you split hairs.

No. Your arguments bore me. Put something together that at least makes sense and offers me an intellectual challenge that doesn't involve splitting hairs over analogies and I'll be more than happy to read your arguments.

Double standard and a moot point.

Hit the brakes.

A TSX 6MT in 3rd at 40 mph will out-accelerate a 5AT in 2nd because the gearing is more aggressive. And there's more power at the ground. And it's lighter. Oh, and you forgot about that maybe 1 second delay as the tranny kicks down in your auto from 5th to 2nd. That is not instantaneous you know. The only tail lights you'll be seeing is the MT driver's.

I like the....

- added power
- added efficiency
- added responsiveness
- added control
- added fun factor

Again, you are taking a simple analogy and taking it seriously and trying to split hairs. Try sticking to concrete arguments like the above points. Fun factor is not concrete, but there is no arguing with the first four.

Scientifically irrelevant.

If I enjoyed washing dishes I would choose to wash them manually, but I do not. Just like if I did not enjoy driving I would drive an AT. You generally like to be as involved as possible in things you enjoy. I enjoy driving and therefore enjoy a manual. If you enjoy driving and prefer an AT, then perhaps you do not enjoy driving as much as I do.

How do the specs prove this?

An SMG and conventional manual are equally efficient and powerful. I don't know where you're getting this from.

You obviously don't get it, so just enjoy your AT.

I am never moving while holding a drink so you don't have to worry about that. When i drive, I DRIVE.

Dan Martin

Are we going for a new "longest thread ever" award? I can't believe it's gone on this long...

More , less !!!

schalliol

Hey guys, I'll get to this, but not in the same quick response I've given in the last day or so, I do have a job and work to do. One person responding, maybe...

fdl

schalliol can outlast anyone! I would still be arguing with him but I just got tired. Stevtec will be his next victim

mrdoug

Couldn't agree more. KEEP it going! And PLEASE don't peter out, Schalliol!! Just downshift! (OOPS, the computer will have to do that for you when it's ready!) :-)

schalliol

Hahhaha, thanks fdl!

BTW, congrats on #1800!

Edt:
Not unless my assertions are all knocked down!

ClutchPerformer

Untrue.

Electrical power is produced by the engine. Every time you use it, there's less availible at the wheels. Nothing is "free" (according to the first law of thermodynamics). in addition, the second law says that "you can't even break even", so you actually suck MORE power out of the engine than you need to run those electronics because of resistive losses, etc.

Edit: Argh...I keep getting sucked back in. This thread is like a black hole....:P

Edit again: Oh and speaking of "thinking about shifting": Do you have to think, for example, when you move from gas to brake pedal? (e.g., "where is that brake pedal? I hit it perfectly last time! Oh wait, that's the gas!"). I hope not. Do you think about turning the steering wheel to the left? Of course not. It's second nature. Shifting is the same way. All you have to do is think "up" or "down" or "double-down" and it's done before you even realize it. Especially once you get acclimated to your particular car and tranny. We could do this all year.

rb1

Dan Martin

Close but not quite. This would be absolutely correct if the engine had to work harder every time you needed more electricity but in every engine I know the alternator puts out a same amout of electricity weather there is need for it or not. I don't believe there is any difference between the TSX MT and AT as far as alternator size is concerned.

Edit: Sorry, but where did you get "you can never break even" from the second law of thermodynamics? I definitely don't have a degree in physics but I always thought that the second law was that the entropy of a closed system increases with time. Maybe you can clear this up...

schalliol

Ok, fine. My understanding was that the alternators converted more power than used normally, on a separate system from the power that drives the wheels. Ok, if that's not the case, the SMG makes it faster and more efficient (efficient in terms of not wasting the engine's power by a slow human shift), but not more powerful...more later

EDIT: Thanks Dan, we posted during the same minute!

mrdoug

I really give you guys a hell of a lot of credit. I kinda just got into this thing yesterday, pretty much "shot my wad" right out of the box, and now I'm just laying back, smoking my cigarette, and enjoying the show! Who knows, maybe I'll get my second wind and climb back aboard! Have a great weekend everyone! See ya Monday (or sooner if I'm so inclined).

SteVTEC

So in the mentioned situation needing to accelerate hard to miss some truck, if you took your nice SMG and just happened to have it in "A1" mode or whatever the relaxed country driving setting is, you'll have a nice long lag before it shifts down a gear. With a manual, like you said, you control the shift speed and firmness on a shift-by-shift basis. Oh and if you're in the M mode for manual shifting only, you still have to reach to shift. Then the computer thinks about it and does its stuff. If I need a quick downshift, by the time my hand reaches the shifter in the manual I've already got the clutch disengaged and the revs matched up to the next gear and just need to throw the shifter.


I don't know either. Both are manual trannys with the same moment of inertia and same overall efficiency. The only difference is that in one you have computer actuated clutch and shifting and in the other you have human control. Power at the wheels and efficiency would be the same in both.



Yup, no SMG will ever be as good or as adaptable as your own brain until they start taping electrodes to your brain and it is able to consciously read your thoughts in real-time. And that would be pretty damned cool.

So to get that quick downshift to avoid that truck, you would first need to select aggressive shift mode and THEN nail it, by which time the manual driver has already completed their shift and have cleared the truck.