manual tranny... a dying art????
#41
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Originally posted by schalliol
.....From the things I read it seems like at least those of you responding just want to be performing a function of the car, so you feel like you're some kick ass driver, when it might not matter at all and you could be slowing the car down. Quite interesting......
.....From the things I read it seems like at least those of you responding just want to be performing a function of the car, so you feel like you're some kick ass driver, when it might not matter at all and you could be slowing the car down. Quite interesting......
There isn't anything odd about people wanting to do as much as possible for themselves, in their own way, even if it makes the task harder, and even totally aside from the results.
BTW: Welcome, glad you found your way here from ClubTSX. Most of us are "refugees" from over there.
#42
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by larchmont
[B]Not odd at all. First of all they don't really think they're slowing the car down. But even if they were...... To take your idea a step further, would you say that they should be glad to just be a passenger if they could have a driver who drove better than they did? Like, suppose you could have Mario Andretti just drive you around all the time, and you'd just sit there and not have to do anything..... What, no, they don't prefer that? What, they'd prefer to drive themselves, even if they might be slowing themselves down???
[B]Not odd at all. First of all they don't really think they're slowing the car down. But even if they were...... To take your idea a step further, would you say that they should be glad to just be a passenger if they could have a driver who drove better than they did? Like, suppose you could have Mario Andretti just drive you around all the time, and you'd just sit there and not have to do anything..... What, no, they don't prefer that? What, they'd prefer to drive themselves, even if they might be slowing themselves down???
Is it less fun to ride a bike without gears? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that true racing bikes have only one gear (thus the pushing to get them going).
There isn't anything odd about people wanting to do as much as possible for themselves, in their own way, even if it makes the task harder, and even totally aside from the results.
BTW: Welcome, glad you found your way here from ClubTSX. Most of us are "refugees" from over there.
#43
Originally posted by onenonlieTSX
There was some talk about that in the past but nobody seems to notice any interference from the DBW system. I find it quite easy to heel-toe in the TSX. If anything, I've noticed the DBW to be more helpful with rev-matching. I dont know if it's just me but the revs just "magically" match up perfectly almost EVERYtime with very little effort.
There was some talk about that in the past but nobody seems to notice any interference from the DBW system. I find it quite easy to heel-toe in the TSX. If anything, I've noticed the DBW to be more helpful with rev-matching. I dont know if it's just me but the revs just "magically" match up perfectly almost EVERYtime with very little effort.
Maybe DBW disables the accelerator in the AT cars when the brake is activated (courtesy of Audi lawsuits of the 80's). Can anyone with an AT confirm/deny? (Domn? )
#44
Originally posted by schalliol
.....For auto drivers it's simple, I'm willing to take a performance hit for the ease of not shifting.....
.....For auto drivers it's simple, I'm willing to take a performance hit for the ease of not shifting.....
I'll try to make another analogy: Let's say you have some famous painting worth 20 million bucks. Now, let's say that you could have a computer-controlled painting machine paint the exact same picture with 100% accuracy. Everything is the same to the viewer, but everyone will know that this one is fake (because it's not in the Louvre or something). Would that computer-generated painting be worth $20 million? I sure wouldn't pay that much for it.
Modern machines can make much better everything (including shifts) than people can. But handmade objects will always be worth more because of the work/time that went into it. Ok, i'm getting away from the analogy, but you must see my point.
Let's look at it in the limiting case: I could get a bunch of computers and servos and motors, etc. to drive my whole car for me. And those computers would be WAY more effective than me, and could beat my time at any track or drag strip in the world, but it would be NO FUN AT ALL to sit in the car and "watch" the computers do all this great driving. If you don't agree with this, then you'll never understand what I'm saying.
PS. And yes, it's all in good spirit. You're not offending me. I just like to discuss.
Edit: F1 cars use sequential manual boxes because they're not concerned about art. They just need to go as fast as possible 100% of the time (and avoid making mistakes that could cost them a tranny and the race). The computer-controlled box does both for them.
#45
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
And those computers would be WAY more effective than me, and could beat my time at any track or drag strip in the world, but it would be NO FUN AT ALL to sit in the car and "watch" the computers do all this great driving.
And those computers would be WAY more effective than me, and could beat my time at any track or drag strip in the world, but it would be NO FUN AT ALL to sit in the car and "watch" the computers do all this great driving.
There's times where convienence takes precedence over fun- it just depends on what you want...
#46
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer This opposed to leaving it to some computer under my cup holder.
I'll try to make another analogy: Let's say you have some famous painting worth 20 million bucks. Now, let's say that you could have a computer-controlled painting machine paint the exact same picture with 100% accuracy. Everything is the same to the viewer, but everyone will know that this one is fake (because it's not in the Louvre or something). Would that computer-generated painting be worth $20 million? I sure wouldn't pay that much for it.
Modern machines can make much better everything (including shifts) than people can. But handmade objects will always be worth more because of the work/time that went into it.
Ok, i'm getting away from the analogy, but you must see my point.
Let's look at it in the limiting case: I could get a bunch of computers and servos and motors, etc. to drive my whole car for me.
And those computers would be WAY more effective than me, and could beat my time at any track or drag strip in the world, but it would be NO FUN AT ALL to sit in the car and "watch" the computers do all this great driving.
PS. And yes, it's all in good spirit. You're not offending me. I just like to discuss.
Edit: F1 cars use sequential manual boxes because they're not concerned about art.
#47
Photography Nerd
I think this whole thread is getting blown way out of proportion but for what it's worth, if Acura offered a sequential manual for the TSX (even up to $4000CDN extra) I would have got it. I'll stick with the 6MT until then. I have also driven the 5AT and I found it to be quite enjoyable as well.
The bottom line is both transmissions will treat their buyers to a great ride whatever their preference is.
Out of curiosity, has anyone driven the MR2 with the sequential manual? I've heard mixed reviews but more positive than not. Most were complaining about shift noise.
The bottom line is both transmissions will treat their buyers to a great ride whatever their preference is.
Out of curiosity, has anyone driven the MR2 with the sequential manual? I've heard mixed reviews but more positive than not. Most were complaining about shift noise.
#48
I hate to act like a mod here, but I have to agree with Dan here. I think this thread has ran it's course and that all the analogies in the world will not really switch one member's transmission preferences. After all, that's a pretty expensive change of habit!
For me, it comes down to being more fun to drive a manual. How is it fun? I can't describe it, but it really is. The motion on moving that sweet gearbox, the ability to rev as high as you like (or should I say can?). The ability to smoke the tires at any stoplight you choose. Of course, most, if not all of these things can be done in automatic, but the interaction and enjoyment I get is fantastic.
And, ya know, if one day, there's an SMG transmission option for a future car of mine, I would have to say I'd take the clutch over it. If not, gimme a dummy pedal and a fake shifter between the seats!!!
For me, it comes down to being more fun to drive a manual. How is it fun? I can't describe it, but it really is. The motion on moving that sweet gearbox, the ability to rev as high as you like (or should I say can?). The ability to smoke the tires at any stoplight you choose. Of course, most, if not all of these things can be done in automatic, but the interaction and enjoyment I get is fantastic.
And, ya know, if one day, there's an SMG transmission option for a future car of mine, I would have to say I'd take the clutch over it. If not, gimme a dummy pedal and a fake shifter between the seats!!!
#49
Originally posted by mojo
Do you have much traffic in Madison, WI? And before you say yes, have you driven much in the large cities (LA, Atlanta, etc) that have traffic? Driving a manual is NO FUN AT ALL in traffic jams.
Do you have much traffic in Madison, WI? And before you say yes, have you driven much in the large cities (LA, Atlanta, etc) that have traffic? Driving a manual is NO FUN AT ALL in traffic jams.
There's times where convienence takes precedence over fun- it just depends on what you want...
#50
Before we start, this is my last post on the subject. These guys are right about this getting blown out of proportion and you disagreed (kinda) with my prime assumption (that being fully driven is not fun).
Of course I realize this. I know all about this car. The fact is that it's not conceivable (or even possible) to control everything which is computer controlled on a 2004 vehicle. But it still is possible to control my transmission and clutch application. And as a matter of fact, I don't LIKE the drive-by-wire throttle. It makes the throttle knife-edged and the car gets jerky when the gas pedal is lifted/reapplied, especially in the lower gears.
I could say the same thing about a shift.
AHA! Why do you need it checked by a person? Machines are better, right? Precision! Precision! Actually, I'm pretty sure that humans no longer design automatic transmissions. The mechanical "circuits" are too complicated. But we don't design a lot of stuff by hand nowadays.
....and this is why we can never agree and I'm finished discussing this.
OK, One last question: do you know how to drive stick?
Originally posted by schalliol
You do know that your TSX has a number of processors controlling your engine and car, right? In fact, you aren't even controlling the throttle yourself in this car, there's a computer controlling this.....
You do know that your TSX has a number of processors controlling your engine and car, right? In fact, you aren't even controlling the throttle yourself in this car, there's a computer controlling this.....
Of course a painting is an art that requires advanced control to make something unique....
....as a technologist, [I] love each shift being performed with stunning accuracy. I personally want the machine made precision, but perhaps checked by a person.....
....I just assert that the transmission is a useless part of fine driving....
OK, One last question: do you know how to drive stick?
#51
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer But that wasn't my point at all. We were talking about performance driving, I think.....
At least I'm trying to figure out why shifting (exclusively) is something that people like to do over a semi-auto/auto system that's just as fast, since there are other things on the car that could be done instead of the computers that currently do. I think you guys just like the ritual of it, just like my grandma that doesn't use her dishwasher. Both she and the mechanical washer have about the same performance at cleaning dishes, but it makes her feel like she accomplished something her way. I assert this because it seems that we established that a SMG system with auto mode (like the current - maybe next gen BMW version) can shift with the same performance and precision of a person, want to correct me?
#53
Senior Moderator
Wow... this thread exploded.
Anyways ... I think I said this before ... but driving a manual is not just about performance..its about being "connected" to the car. Having maximum control. The more control you have, the more engaging the experince, and the better the experience (for those who love the MT). Its about driving the car, and not having the car drive you.
Someone brought up the point of..."well how about this and that that is controlled by a computer". Dont compare apples to oranges. If its something that is not part of the actuall driving of the car (accel, decel, steering, etc) then I dont care. And as for DBW throttle...I prefer not to have in the sense that it takes something away from teh driving experience, but at least it tries very hard to mimic a cable throttle and its a small price to pay for the added saftey of VSA.
So for me..its not about...how fast you can shift. Its about being one with the car.
Anyways ... I think I said this before ... but driving a manual is not just about performance..its about being "connected" to the car. Having maximum control. The more control you have, the more engaging the experince, and the better the experience (for those who love the MT). Its about driving the car, and not having the car drive you.
Someone brought up the point of..."well how about this and that that is controlled by a computer". Dont compare apples to oranges. If its something that is not part of the actuall driving of the car (accel, decel, steering, etc) then I dont care. And as for DBW throttle...I prefer not to have in the sense that it takes something away from teh driving experience, but at least it tries very hard to mimic a cable throttle and its a small price to pay for the added saftey of VSA.
So for me..its not about...how fast you can shift. Its about being one with the car.
#54
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer I'm just like your grandma.
Answer my question!
Answer my question!
Originally posted by schalliol ...I can drive stick and do like the ability to choose the gear I want and move up/down some times...
Of course I realize this. I know all about this car. The fact is that it's not conceivable (or even possible) to control everything which is computer controlled on a 2004 vehicle. But it still is possible to control my transmission and clutch application.
Originally posted by fdl
I think I said this before ... but driving a manual is not just about performance..its about being "connected" to the car. Having maximum control. The more control you have, the more engaging the experince, and the better the experience (for those who love the MT). Its about driving the car, and not having the car drive you.
Someone brought up the point of..."well how about this and that that is controlled by a computer". Dont compare apples to oranges. If its something that is not part of the actuall driving of the car (accel, decel, steering, etc) then I dont care.
I think I said this before ... but driving a manual is not just about performance..its about being "connected" to the car. Having maximum control. The more control you have, the more engaging the experince, and the better the experience (for those who love the MT). Its about driving the car, and not having the car drive you.
Someone brought up the point of..."well how about this and that that is controlled by a computer". Dont compare apples to oranges. If its something that is not part of the actuall driving of the car (accel, decel, steering, etc) then I dont care.
So for me..its not about...how fast you can shift. Its about being one with the car.
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer AHA! Why do you need it checked by a person? Machines are better, right? Precision! Precision!
Actually, I'm pretty sure that humans no longer design automatic transmissions. The mechanical "circuits" are too complicated. But we don't design a lot of stuff by hand nowadays.
Ok, so with all of this and wrapping up the original question, how about another question: In 10 years, will >5% of cars have what we would consider a manual transmission? I argue no. This doesn't attest to being better or anything, but just what people will chose. I think that the argument for a number of people is the performance and beyond the inflection point I mentioned, there will only be the true manualists, as I'm calling them, buying the type of transmission in the TSX's MT.
Ahh, interesting stuff. Most certainly there are a small number of people willing to discuss the philosophy of the transmissions, I'm in the right place!
#55
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by schalliol
I argue that at this inflection point the transmission is not part of driving the car, with perhaps exception of wanting to choose a different gear. I see no reason why a shift shouldn't be done in an instant. What possible advantage do you have of not shifting in a smooth instant (hell, use SMG's super-fast shifts or more relaxed shifts, there are options), and as well, for the reasons I indicated, it takes away some of your physical and mental capabilities from being fully observant and able to deal with evasive action. I can see that you want to feel part of the car, by replicating something that a computer can do as well or better than you can. More power to ya, we don't need everything to be automated and if it makes you feel good to replace the electronic controls with yourself, regardless of other costs, do it.
I argue that at this inflection point the transmission is not part of driving the car, with perhaps exception of wanting to choose a different gear. I see no reason why a shift shouldn't be done in an instant. What possible advantage do you have of not shifting in a smooth instant (hell, use SMG's super-fast shifts or more relaxed shifts, there are options), and as well, for the reasons I indicated, it takes away some of your physical and mental capabilities from being fully observant and able to deal with evasive action. I can see that you want to feel part of the car, by replicating something that a computer can do as well or better than you can. More power to ya, we don't need everything to be automated and if it makes you feel good to replace the electronic controls with yourself, regardless of other costs, do it.
I dont want a computer to drive my car..I want to drive it. What if we had computers to control the steering too (lets just say somehow it was technically possible) would you want that? I want to drive my car.... and I want to feel like I am driving it.
EDIT: When I drove an AT...it was so numb. It involved no thought really. With a MT you are forced to think..(what gear are you in, what gear will you need to be in 100 meters ahead. etc)
#56
Photography Nerd
Originally posted by fdl
EDIT: When I drove an AT...it was so numb. It involved no thought really. With a MT you are forced to think..(what gear are you in, what gear will you need to be in 100 meters ahead. etc)
EDIT: When I drove an AT...it was so numb. It involved no thought really. With a MT you are forced to think..(what gear are you in, what gear will you need to be in 100 meters ahead. etc)
#57
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by fdl
See you still dont get it. When I control the shifts..i can feel the engine engage and feed the power to the wheels in just the way I want. So its a feeling..and its the control.
See you still dont get it. When I control the shifts..i can feel the engine engage and feed the power to the wheels in just the way I want. So its a feeling..and its the control.
So, on to the feeling: it appears that the feeling is just something that exists without a function. Form going against function if you will. If you're ok with form going against function to an extreme, fine, have all the feeling you like.
I dont want a computer to drive my car..I want to drive it.
#58
Former Audio Mod
[i]Originally posted by Dan Martin I Agree. You are definitely more aware of road conditions when driving a manual than you are in an AT.
#59
Photography Nerd
Originally posted by schalliol
That's just up to you. If you want to be lax about your driving you can be in either situation, but it's insane to suggest that someone driving a manual (with more they have to do) can be more aware of road conditions than someone with an AT because the MT driver has to do more things and has to multi-task (multitasking has been proven to reduce efficiency overall). Maybe that's how you drive when you drive an AT, but it's probably because you're numbed because the "feeling" indicated here is not present. Like when I am walking around without my keys, I feel like there's something missing and I'm distracted.
That's just up to you. If you want to be lax about your driving you can be in either situation, but it's insane to suggest that someone driving a manual (with more they have to do) can be more aware of road conditions than someone with an AT because the MT driver has to do more things and has to multi-task (multitasking has been proven to reduce efficiency overall). Maybe that's how you drive when you drive an AT, but it's probably because you're numbed because the "feeling" indicated here is not present. Like when I am walking around without my keys, I feel like there's something missing and I'm distracted.
The one thing that stands out in your reply is the "with more they have to do" part. MT drivers have more to do because they have to react to differing road conditions. If you are driving up hill in an AT you probably wouldn't think twice about it. However, if you were to go up the same hill in a MT you would likely realize the loss of power and instinctively downshift. The difference is the MT forces you to be more aware of road not less aware of it.
#60
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by schalliol
I do get what you're saying, I just believe that the control you're getting is a false sense. It becomes artificial in regards to control the shift. What possible extra control do you have when you feel the engine breaking or hit the gas in a certain combination of letting out the clutch that you can't achieve with the auto-stick, besides something like spinning your tires or putting excess strain by popping the clutch. Again, it's taking away some of the control of the rest of the car and I'm pretty positive on the course I mentioned before over the mountains that the AT TSX will win. If this is the case and you have so much control, what are you doing with it? Why don't you want to be able to have control over how the power is distributed to each individual drive wheel? That would certainly help. What if you had a semi auto transmission that allowed you to (easily - same effort as the std. manual shift) distribute power to each of the 2 (or 4 if you want AWD) wheels. I argue that this control on the fly would be much more real control than when the clutch is in and when it isn't.
So, on to the feeling: it appears that the feeling is just something that exists without a function. Form going against function if you will. If you're ok with form going against function to an extreme, fine, have all the feeling you like.Nor I.
I do get what you're saying, I just believe that the control you're getting is a false sense. It becomes artificial in regards to control the shift. What possible extra control do you have when you feel the engine breaking or hit the gas in a certain combination of letting out the clutch that you can't achieve with the auto-stick, besides something like spinning your tires or putting excess strain by popping the clutch. Again, it's taking away some of the control of the rest of the car and I'm pretty positive on the course I mentioned before over the mountains that the AT TSX will win. If this is the case and you have so much control, what are you doing with it? Why don't you want to be able to have control over how the power is distributed to each individual drive wheel? That would certainly help. What if you had a semi auto transmission that allowed you to (easily - same effort as the std. manual shift) distribute power to each of the 2 (or 4 if you want AWD) wheels. I argue that this control on the fly would be much more real control than when the clutch is in and when it isn't.
So, on to the feeling: it appears that the feeling is just something that exists without a function. Form going against function if you will. If you're ok with form going against function to an extreme, fine, have all the feeling you like.Nor I.
Like I said, you just dont get it. If you dont understand what advantages you gain from what I said I am not going to explain it. If AT are so great then why dont race cars use them? That alone is enough proof to my point. Even F1 which is the bleeding edge of technology they use sequential manuals ( oua re still "connnected" but there is no clutch). This is the ultimate in performance, but lacks some of the fun that comes with a clutch.
Or why is it that the mt versions of so many new cars are the "sport" versions. They come with the race suspension, brakes, etc. mt is the enthusiest choice...is the choice for those who want to DRIVE.
And how can you compare power steering to what we are talking about? Thats completely differnt. Its just power assist..which means its not as stiff. And there are things called "steering feel" and steering feedback"...the more of which account for a more sporting experience. Besides, how does another "bad" thing help your argument?
Look I am not saying AT is bad..i have said on another thread i see it as a LUXURY feature. Its just not sporty. Its one more buffer between you and the car. If you see no value in being connected to the car, feeling what it is doing, actually having the car almost be an organic extension to you, then you just arent going to get it. Its about teh experince, its about the fun to drive, its about teh ART.
#61
Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
Answer my question!
Answer my question!
Originally posted by schalliol
I didn't see your post when last I posted.
I didn't see your post when last I posted.
Aside from "control" stuffs, do you know that most of the AT version of a car will see lower hp at the wheels? Just do a search in the Performance forum on "dyno". Both MT and AT TSX's have the same hp rating (at the crank) from the factory...200hp, but the AT saw something in the 150hp range at the wheels while the MT saw near 170hp at the wheels. You mentioned something about AT being efficient, does this hp difference sounds efficient to you?
#62
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by fdl Like I said, you just dont get it. If you dont understand what advantages you gain from what I said I am not going to explain it. If AT are so great then why dont race cars use them? That alone is enough proof to my point. Even F1 which is the bleeding edge of technology they use sequential manuals ( oua re still "connnected" but there is no clutch). This is the ultimate in performance, but lacks some of the fun that comes with a clutch.
Or why is it that the mt versions of so many new cars are the "sport" versions. They come with the race suspension, brakes, etc. mt is the enthusiest choice...is the choice for those who want to DRIVE.
And how can you compare power steering to what we are talking about? Thats completely differnt. Its just power assist..which means its not as stiff. And there are things called "steering feel" and steering feedback"...the more of which account for a more sporting experience. Besides, how does another "bad" thing help your argument?
Look I am not saying AT is bad..I have said on another thread i see it as a LUXURY feature. Its just not sporty. Its one more buffer between you and the car. If you see no value in being connected to the car, feeling what it is doing, actually having the car almost be an organic extension to you, then you just arent going to get it. Its about teh experince, its about the fun to drive, its about teh ART.
#63
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by vwong
Clutch asked you if you know how to drive stick. I remember from another post of yours, you mentioned that you know how to drive stick. Now my question to you is, how competent are you with MT? and how long have (or had) you been driving MT? I have couple of friends who claim to know how to drive stick, but in reality, they only know how a MT car is being driven. The moment they jump into a MT car, they just stalled the car and couldn't even get out of the parking lot.
Clutch asked you if you know how to drive stick. I remember from another post of yours, you mentioned that you know how to drive stick. Now my question to you is, how competent are you with MT? and how long have (or had) you been driving MT? I have couple of friends who claim to know how to drive stick, but in reality, they only know how a MT car is being driven. The moment they jump into a MT car, they just stalled the car and couldn't even get out of the parking lot.
Aside from "control" stuffs, do you know that most of the AT version of a car will see lower hp at the wheels? Just do a search in the Performance forum on "dyno". Both MT and AT TSX's have the same hp rating (at the crank) from the factory...200hp, but the AT saw something in the 150hp range at the wheels while the MT saw near 170hp at the wheels. You mentioned something about AT being efficient, does this hp difference sounds efficient to you?
#64
Senior Moderator
Well. this guy just doesnt get it..and never will get it.
When race cars and sports cars start having automatics only then you will have a point, but i'm afraid in all your posting you still havent said much.
In fact you proved what I am saying by agreeing that high-end race cars would not have power assist. (Although an AT is still much more disengaging that power steering!). So the less assistance you have the more sporting the drive. So the question is..how involved, from an enthusiest and sporty perspecitive, do you want to get in the driving experience? And AT is one more level away from this experience.
If you see a car as a transportation device for getting you from a to b in the most effficient and easiest way possible (which you obviously do), then you are not going to understand.
What do you think an f1 driver, or nascar driver, or cart driver drive on their own time? I'll guarentee you a MT. What do auto journalists always drool over and want to test...the MT version. I guess they are all wrong!
When race cars and sports cars start having automatics only then you will have a point, but i'm afraid in all your posting you still havent said much.
In fact you proved what I am saying by agreeing that high-end race cars would not have power assist. (Although an AT is still much more disengaging that power steering!). So the less assistance you have the more sporting the drive. So the question is..how involved, from an enthusiest and sporty perspecitive, do you want to get in the driving experience? And AT is one more level away from this experience.
If you see a car as a transportation device for getting you from a to b in the most effficient and easiest way possible (which you obviously do), then you are not going to understand.
What do you think an f1 driver, or nascar driver, or cart driver drive on their own time? I'll guarentee you a MT. What do auto journalists always drool over and want to test...the MT version. I guess they are all wrong!
#65
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by fdl
Well. this guy just doesnt get it..and never will get it.
Well. this guy just doesnt get it..and never will get it.
When race cars and sports cars start having automatics only then you will have a point, but i'm afraid in all your posting you still havent said much.
In fact you proved what I am saying by agreeing that high-end race cars would not have power assist. (Although an AT is still much more disengaging that power steering!). So the less assistance you have the more sporting the drive. So the question is..how involved, from an enthusiest and sporty perspecitive, do you want to get in the driving experience? And AT is one more level away from this experience.
If you see a car as a transportation device for getting you from a to b in the most effficient and easiest way possible (which you obviously do), then you are not going to understand.
What do you think an f1 driver, or nascar driver, or cart driver drive on their own time? I'll guarentee you a MT. What do auto journalists always drool over and want to test...the MT version. I guess they are all wrong!
#66
Senior Moderator
I am not bent out of shape at all. Just frustrated by your ignorance.
And we need to clarify something...the high tech sequential manual transmissions on sports cars..are not ATs! Yes..I agree..this is the future. The manual from an F1 car makes it to the street car. This is the future ... but its still a manual transmission! Its not just a faster shifting version of the sport shift in your acura. Its a true clutchless manual transmission. Whereas your sport shift is just an AT than you can ask to change gears for you. And I also agree that we will get to a point when the standard clutch manual will be rare. But there will still be manual trannies. See my point? Your definition of AT and MT are a little off.
As for you enjoying your drive in your AT. Yes you can enjoy your drive..just as my grandmother enjoys riding the bus sometimes. But there are different levels of driving enjoyment, and my point is some people enjoy a more engaginging experiece..where they are connected to the car, and have abolute control. Car and drive r become one. Its an art...and a sheer pleasure when mastered. But ya..there is still pleasure in just steering the car...but thats not my point.
EDIT: And what does me being a mod have to do with anything? I love a good heated argument as much as the next guy. Bring it on.
And we need to clarify something...the high tech sequential manual transmissions on sports cars..are not ATs! Yes..I agree..this is the future. The manual from an F1 car makes it to the street car. This is the future ... but its still a manual transmission! Its not just a faster shifting version of the sport shift in your acura. Its a true clutchless manual transmission. Whereas your sport shift is just an AT than you can ask to change gears for you. And I also agree that we will get to a point when the standard clutch manual will be rare. But there will still be manual trannies. See my point? Your definition of AT and MT are a little off.
As for you enjoying your drive in your AT. Yes you can enjoy your drive..just as my grandmother enjoys riding the bus sometimes. But there are different levels of driving enjoyment, and my point is some people enjoy a more engaginging experiece..where they are connected to the car, and have abolute control. Car and drive r become one. Its an art...and a sheer pleasure when mastered. But ya..there is still pleasure in just steering the car...but thats not my point.
EDIT: And what does me being a mod have to do with anything? I love a good heated argument as much as the next guy. Bring it on.
#67
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by fdl
And we need to clarify something...the high tech sequential manual transmissions on sports cars..are not ATs! Yes..I agree..this is the future. The manual from an F1 car makes it to the street car. This is the future ... but its still a manual transmission! Its not just a faster shifting version of the sport shift in your acura.
And we need to clarify something...the high tech sequential manual transmissions on sports cars..are not ATs! Yes..I agree..this is the future. The manual from an F1 car makes it to the street car. This is the future ... but its still a manual transmission! Its not just a faster shifting version of the sport shift in your acura.
And I also agree that we will get to a point when the standard clutch manual will be rare.
But there will still be [floot-clutching?] manual trannies.
As for you enjoying your drive in your AT. Yes you can enjoy your drive..just as my grandmother enjoys riding the bus sometimes. But there are different levels of driving enjoyment, and my point is some people enjoy a more engaginging experiece..where they are connected to the car, and have abolute control. Car and drive r become one. Its an art...and a sheer pleasure when mastered. But ya..there is still pleasure in just steering the car...but thats not my point.
EDIT: And what does me being a mod have to do with anything? I love a good heated argument as much as the next guy. Bring it on.
Well, so, it seems that you prefer a different control than I, but would lack some other control by taking your different control. However, it sounds like we're in agreement, aside from that preference, and we both needed to clarify some things. As you can see my posts get kind of long, so I try not to get into too much detail, but it was good that I clarified.
Soooo, poidra02, to your question from the original post on this thread. The consensus seems to be that the conventional manual tranny is a dying "art," and will be replaced by sequential manuals (most will have switches to enable a fully-automatic mode unless they delete those for "non-sporty" connotations), but at least for decades (assuming conventional cars exist) the conventional manual will be around, though with greatly reduced numbers. Saying this though is dated several years in the future, when SMGs offer measurably better performance at a low cost.
#68
Originally posted by fdl
And we need to clarify something...the high tech sequential manual transmissions on sports cars..are not ATs! Yes..I agree..this is the future. The manual from an F1 car makes it to the street car. This is the future ... but its still a manual transmission! Its not just a faster shifting version of the sport shift in your acura. Its a true clutchless manual transmission. Whereas your sport shift is just an AT than you can ask to change gears for you. And I also agree that we will get to a point when the standard clutch manual will be rare. But there will still be manual trannies. See my point? Your definition of AT and MT are a little off.
And we need to clarify something...the high tech sequential manual transmissions on sports cars..are not ATs! Yes..I agree..this is the future. The manual from an F1 car makes it to the street car. This is the future ... but its still a manual transmission! Its not just a faster shifting version of the sport shift in your acura. Its a true clutchless manual transmission. Whereas your sport shift is just an AT than you can ask to change gears for you. And I also agree that we will get to a point when the standard clutch manual will be rare. But there will still be manual trannies. See my point? Your definition of AT and MT are a little off.
"A sequential manual transmission is not to be confused with a "tiptronic" sort of automatic transmission. The tiptronic system may duplicate the shift lever motion of a sequential gearbox. However, because a tiptronic transmission is an automatic transmission at its core, it still has the torque converter and usually does not shift as quickly."
Here's my view on the future. MT will never die as long as auto racing is present. AT with Tiptronic/Sport Shift/SMG...whatever you call it, is just a "convenient" feature. I don't see how this "convenient" feature will go along with racing.
#69
Senior Moderator
Thanks for the definition vwong. That is exactly the distiction I am trying to make.
And as for beating me with your AT thorugh the moutains. How do you figure this is possible? I will be able to be at just the right rpms at all times. You see once you master the "art" ..it becomes second nature and you just need to think about it and it happens. I will always be in the "sweet spot"., and will have more fun doing it
And as for beating me with your AT thorugh the moutains. How do you figure this is possible? I will be able to be at just the right rpms at all times. You see once you master the "art" ..it becomes second nature and you just need to think about it and it happens. I will always be in the "sweet spot"., and will have more fun doing it
#70
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by vwong
Just want to emphasize what fdl said about sequential tranny is still a manual transmission.
Just want to emphasize what fdl said about sequential tranny is still a manual transmission.
Here's my view on the future. MT will never die as long as auto racing is present. AT with Tiptronic/Sport Shift/SMG...whatever you call it, is just a "convenient" feature. I don't see how this "convenient" feature will go along with racing.
#71
Originally posted by schalliol
If you come to the bay area, we can run times in the course I mentioned and I guarantee I'd win because you simply can't take the corners and elevation changes at as high rate of speed while you "have your control" because you'd need to be maximizing your gearing all the time and it would be inadvisable not to have two hands on some of the corners (well, we'd want to make sure that there aren't cars, it's 1 lane in some places). If you're so in control and "one with the car", why would you be slower?
If you come to the bay area, we can run times in the course I mentioned and I guarantee I'd win because you simply can't take the corners and elevation changes at as high rate of speed while you "have your control" because you'd need to be maximizing your gearing all the time and it would be inadvisable not to have two hands on some of the corners (well, we'd want to make sure that there aren't cars, it's 1 lane in some places). If you're so in control and "one with the car", why would you be slower?
#72
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by fdl
And as for beating me with your AT thorugh the moutains. How do you figure this is possible?
And as for beating me with your AT thorugh the moutains. How do you figure this is possible?
I will always be in the "sweet spot"., and will have more fun doing it
Originally posted by vwong
Just by your statement above, I can tell that you're not competent in driving a MT car. A competent MT driver will have no problem maneuvering (with both hands on the steering wheel) and shifting on the twisties.
Just by your statement above, I can tell that you're not competent in driving a MT car. A competent MT driver will have no problem maneuvering (with both hands on the steering wheel) and shifting on the twisties.
Hmm...wonder if you've watched the Driving Impression video from vtec.net?
#73
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by schalliol
I stated this in one of my original posts in this thread. It is VERY curvy, almost all are hairpin on the edge of cliffs without guard rails, and it also goes up and down dramatically with almost every curve. I figure that this is possible because I can have two hands to be able to have more control around corners and more mental faculties available for reacting, as well as the ability to avoid shifting manually every few seconds.
I stated this in one of my original posts in this thread. It is VERY curvy, almost all are hairpin on the edge of cliffs without guard rails, and it also goes up and down dramatically with almost every curve. I figure that this is possible because I can have two hands to be able to have more control around corners and more mental faculties available for reacting, as well as the ability to avoid shifting manually every few seconds.
I really think you are giving too much credit to the AT. It does a decent job for normal driving..but in a perfromance situation it will be extremely inefficient. Thats why you have the "sport"-shift.
I think you would really love the Audi CVT transmission!
#74
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by fdl
The fact that it is very curvy and has varied elevations is MORE reason why the MT will be superior. You can get into the perfect gear as you enter a turn and stay in it. You will always have one hand on the wheel, and both hands 99% of the time, plus staying in the sweet spot of your cars engine. So you will always have maximum power. The AT will be all over the map when braking and accelerating in and through turns, wheare the MT will stay in the right place (Assuming the driver is skilled enough). You've got to at least use the sport-shift if you want to make it close, and then you too will be taking your hands off the wheel.
I really think you are giving too much credit to the AT. It does a decent job for normal driving..but in a perfromance situation it will be extremely inefficient.
The fact that it is very curvy and has varied elevations is MORE reason why the MT will be superior. You can get into the perfect gear as you enter a turn and stay in it. You will always have one hand on the wheel, and both hands 99% of the time, plus staying in the sweet spot of your cars engine. So you will always have maximum power. The AT will be all over the map when braking and accelerating in and through turns, wheare the MT will stay in the right place (Assuming the driver is skilled enough). You've got to at least use the sport-shift if you want to make it close, and then you too will be taking your hands off the wheel.
I really think you are giving too much credit to the AT. It does a decent job for normal driving..but in a perfromance situation it will be extremely inefficient.
I would like to add that there is a learning curve with the sport shift. It of course has loads of lag and shifting sequentially up and down by tapping through the stick only 1/2" is much stranger (for me) than using a conventional MT, but I've not had a car with sport shift like this kind before. Paddle mounted for sequential makes so much more sense to me. We'll see when I've had this car more miles (I got #12555 on the last day of August).
I think you would really love the Audi CVT transmission!
BTW, fdl, it's nice that you guys get more features for less $ up there in CAN (or so I'm told it's less). If there's not a post on that, I'll post one soon - I'd love to get heated mirrors at least (I might move back to Indiana, which "lets" you have frozen mirrors for a few months).
#75
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by schalliol
BTW, fdl, it's nice that you guys get more features for less $ up there in CAN (or so I'm told it's less). If there's not a post on that, I'll post one soon - I'd love to get heated mirrors at least (I might move back to Indiana, which "lets" you have frozen mirrors for a few months).
BTW, fdl, it's nice that you guys get more features for less $ up there in CAN (or so I'm told it's less). If there's not a post on that, I'll post one soon - I'd love to get heated mirrors at least (I might move back to Indiana, which "lets" you have frozen mirrors for a few months).
But on the other hand we cant get carbon grey, meteor silver, quartz interior, and and also can get a navigation system.
#76
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by fdl Ya..we've got a few little things extra like heated mirrors, low winshield washer inidicator, and daytime running lights. We also have the white with ebony which alot of people want.
But on the other hand we cant get carbon grey, meteor silver, quartz interior, and and also can get a navigation system.
But on the other hand we cant get carbon grey, meteor silver, quartz interior, and and also can get a navigation system.
#77
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by schalliol
Yup, not to get too off topic, but in case someone finds this in a search, here's an old ClubTSX page: http://www.clubtsx.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=4825
Yup, not to get too off topic, but in case someone finds this in a search, here's an old ClubTSX page: http://www.clubtsx.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=4825
#78
Originally posted by schalliol
I only mean this when taken to extremes, on a road where every few seconds the elevation and road orientation change dramatically not the PCH or something easy like that.[/i]
I only mean this when taken to extremes, on a road where every few seconds the elevation and road orientation change dramatically not the PCH or something easy like that.[/i]
(man, I loved my Bridgestone Potenza A•03 Pole Position Tires, sigh, at least these will get 2x the miles, work in snow and not cost >$250/tire ).
#79
Former Audio Mod
Originally posted by vwong
This must be a tire of your own. Never heard of A03. I assume you're referring to the S-03
This must be a tire of your own. Never heard of A03. I assume you're referring to the S-03
if so I don't think they'll provide good traction for you in the snow. Afterall, these are summer only tires.