poidra02

why do you guys think so many people don't drive sticks anymore? not even the ghetto ricer racers around here in long island have manny trannies.

if you ask me, manuals make any car a bunch more fun to drive. the clutch is so light in the tsx compared to the 325s and A4s i've driven, that traffic can't be a problem.

is it that people just don't know how much fun it is and that's why 90% of tsx's in dealer inventory are autos? whatyothink

provench

People are lazy And it doesn't help that folks wanna eat, talk on cell phones, and all this other stuff while in a car. Although I can do all that and shift my 6MT so who know

I am with you though ... I love shifting ... I think someone said it several months ago best ... do you wanna DRIVE or do you wanna RIDE .... I like to drive my cars

ClutchPerformer

Me too.

I think people (especially my generation) don't really care about the "advantages" that come with driving stick. Plus sometimes it's hard to find a car to learn on and a person to teach you. Oh well....more MTs for me

poidra02

do any of you guys actually heel-toe? apparently the bottom hinged gas pedal is supposed to let you do that easier. you do it for traction right? to keep the rpms up so the when you kick into gear the engine doesn't slow the car down and put the weight over the front? i'm trying to figure out the advantage here

ClutchPerformer

I'm not great at it, but I know the theory. The advantage of heel-toeing is that you can rev match your downshift and brake simultaneously (an operation which requires the use of all three pedals at once). Downshifting allows you to make the most of your exit speed. The rev matching ensures that your car is not upset by the dive/squat action you get from an un-matched downshift. And the braking slows you down to the appropriate speed for the corner you're taking.

That being said, I find that the bottom hinged pedal is bad for this. With the ball of my foot on the brake, my heel hits the gas pedal at the bottom where the hinge is (so I can't actually press the pedal). And I'm pretty sure some other folks here have this problem, too. I think the bottom-hinged pedal is not ideal for heel-toeing, but whatever. I'm usually not taking corners hard enough to requre it.

sheik28

Have you tried reversing your foot, so that your heel is on the brake and the ball of your foot is on the top of the gas peddle?

ClutchPerformer

That's a good point.

I have tried that, but it's not as effective. The thing is, the braking needs to be fairly subtle and the throttle blip does not. And it turns out the ball of your foot is much better at being subtle than your heel (from years of practice). I guess I could learn to get used to braking with my heel, but I probably won't use heel-toeing enough to justify it. Oh well....

PS. Maybe chrisalberts, the master of MT can help me out!

fdl

Ya, the bottom hinged gas pedal makes things a little different for heel toe, but really I dont think its a problem. Just something to get used to. You just need to twist your foot a little more or somehow make it so that your heel hits the gas pedal a bit higher. You also have to adjust and push harder since you are lower on the pedal.

Dan Martin

I use it daily! It takes a fair amount of practice but I can downshift almost as smooth as an auto tranny can now. It certainly isn't necessary for everyday driving but I find it to be one of the most enjoyable aspects of owning a manual.

There are a few advantages to heel-toeing but I mostly use it to assist my braking. Usually when I come into a corner I apply the brake until my revs are safely within the limit of the lower gear. Then I shift my foot over so that the ball of my right foot is on the brake and the throttle is under the right side of my foot (it helps to have wide feet). I put the clutch in, blip the throttle to the right rpm (while maintaining brake pedal pressure), select the gear, release the clutch, and keep hard on the brakes. It's all about being smooth... If race drivers didn't downshift for corners they would probably only get a couple laps out of their brakes before their brake fluid started to boil.

If I am coming into a fairly fast corner like a highway off-ramp, sometimes I throw it down a gear just to transfer a little bit of weight over the front of the car so that the front has plenty of grip when I start the turn. You would be amazed at how much of a difference this can make.

Of course it's all about balance and if you go too crazy with it you can get yourself into trouble. Remember, ABS doesn't do anything for engine braking!

Brad

There's a feel of driving--actually driving--the car that I appreciate about MT.

Have clutch, will drive!

vwong

It's the joy of driving that I like about a MT car. For me, the AT just takes the fun out of driving. My wife said the same thing too.

As for heel-toe, I do that all the time. I agree with Dan that it's not necessary for the streets, but heel-toe is a second nature for me. Also I don't see how the bottom hinged gas pedal is affecting the heel-toe. I have no problem with it.

Gboyz78

MT all the way, even though my TSX is AT. that is why I still have my Eclipse GS-T

rb1

Didn't I read something about the drive-by-wire ignoring input from the accelerator while the brake was applied or something? I'm sure there was a thread here or at the old site that discussed this.

onenonlieTSX

There was some talk about that in the past but nobody seems to notice any interference from the DBW system. I find it quite easy to heel-toe in the TSX. If anything, I've noticed the DBW to be more helpful with rev-matching. I dont know if it's just me but the revs just "magically" match up perfectly almost EVERYtime with very little effort.

Soze75

a dying art?

Sadly, I think it is. I'd like Merc's AMG models if they came with manuals, but since they don't, they suck.
Even the upcoming M5 wasn't going to be offered with a manual, but thankfully, it will be.(SMG...bah!)

I have to thank my dad for my manual addiction. Before he bought a brand new manual, 92 Accord, I had no intention of trying one out(I was 17 or so). The night we picked up the car from the dealer, he orders me into the driver's seat in less than an hour. Thank you dad! I haven't owned an auto since.

I believe the manual makes you a better and more aware driver, for me anyway. I am constanly involved as I cut through the masses of half-wit drivers who surround me daily. It just makes it so damn fun. Just last night as I was enjoying my up-shifting and down-shifting, I let out "fuck, this car rules!!" again and again.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

I still like the SMGs though if they are TRUE SMGs and not "manumatics". Nice ultra-quick shifts. The only thing missing is the clutch pedal.

Dan Martin

Agreed. This is the only way to buy the M3. SMG will be offered on MY2004 3 series sedans, albeit in a slightly less racy form.

rb1

VW is coming up with a "DSG" transmission in 2004 with two internal clutches. Upshifts in something like .07 seconds or something ridiculously short like that...

chrisalberts

Well on the cars I've heel/toed on, I find the floor hinged gas pedal a real bonus. I also find it less fatiguing on long drives.

Try using the left side of your foot to brake and then pivot on that to let the right side blip the gas. If the pedals are close enough/feet are wide enough this can be the easiest way to go. Also try it first when you're going pretty deep on the brakes, if I'm going to heel/toe around a turn, I'll usually brake extra late as in many cars the height of the pedals is such that unless you've got the brake pressed down hard you can't easily blip the throttle.

As for MT dying out I have 2 points:

1. MTs predominate in Europe, it's mostly the US that's "lazy"

2. You can still drive an MT car if the clutch or tranny is having problems, with ATs, once they're broken you're 100% screwed. Try jump starting an AT, too.

C.

schalliol

Visiting my parents, I have become a fan of my mother's E55 AMG, but it certainly is still an E-class, which means that it goes anywhere you want it to go, but still feels like a sporty Benz, but not a car built for racing. My father's 540i is also an AT with a much smaller engine, but feels more sporty (I'd still take the E55 over it any day).

I believe it makes people less safe drivers because they simply can't be using two hands while shifting. Furthermore, while it may be imperceptible, you must think about when changing gears, which slows you down when making split-second decisions. It takes a full second in most cases to see a stop light change and apply the brake as it is.

This means that I bet an AT TSX could run a faster time than an MT from Palo Alto to Pescadero (at the ocean on the drive over the Santa Cruz Mountains in CA). It goes up and down very quickly a number of times and is almost totally tight turns on the side of cliffs the entire way. A manual driver simply couldn't make all the shifts necessary to gain full advantage of all the elevation changes and straight-aways under full control. Maybe someone could, but only very few.

BMW's SMG II is almost as fast as a manual shifter, and faster in many cases. We will shortly be at an inflection point, where you will be taking a slower car by getting a manual (don't you love seeing those Porsche Turbo drivers who don't know how to drive stick?). Then the smart thing is to use the semi-auto for those that want the control of a manual or the feel of a stick (heck, we could put in a dummy clutch pedal for you, if you like the sensation).

It's a choice and right now it's still the higher performance option to go with a stick, but what will you do when getting a manual makes the car slower?

BTW, this is my first post on this forum. I used to post at Club TSX and now have found out that this exists and I won't be going back (thanks, mega mod).

EDIT: I guess that rb1 posted while I was writing. While we're not sure how fast that shifting will be for VW, the inflection point I mentioned may be upon us soon!

Kwijybo19

Dying art?? I think it's on the table right now...

I'm 17 and still go to High School, and let me tell you, people are just lazy. 90% of the boys (sadly, the girls really aren't into modding their cars) don't even contemplate about driving a manual. Yet they still put all this crap all over their cars, in some vain attempt to make their cars better. In my opinion, if you're starting with an automatic transmission, why even bother? You're already starting in the hole, horsepower and response wise. Case in point. I own a 1999 Civic EX sedan five-speed. Some idiot in my school has a 2000 EX coupe AUTO. He put on a big coffee can muffler, a no-name intake, a set of headers and a catalytic converter. He wanted to race me. Being the adolescent I am, I said let's go. It wasn't even close! There's only so hard you can hit the gas pedal!! Haha.

By the way, for a little statistic. 1400 go to my High School. Half drive to school (juniors, seniors and a few sophomores). I drive stick, my buddy who has a Prelude does, another buddy who put an H22 (JDM type-s) into his 1996 Accord does, a kid that has his Mom's Maxima, a girl that has an Eclipse and a guy that has a current generation Eclipse. That's it!!!!

When I got my permit, my mom had a 1995 Accord EX 5-speed (although, it's gonna be my winter car now, cuz she just ordered a TSX 6-speed with navi!!! Black on ebony!!! I can't wait, but I digress). My dad had a stick shift, so there was no way around it. I got pissed off and was brought to tears close to every night, cuz at the rate I was going, there was no way in hell I was going to get this, and there was no way around it! I was fu**ed! First gear was by far the worst. Couldn't get out of it to save my life. Slowly, but surely I got it and two weeks after I got first gear, I was driving with no problem. End to the story: three short months, after driving not a single automatic, I had my license and it felt so good!!

My analysis: It's a steep learning curve, but definetely worth it! Once you get it, you won't forget. For an enthusiast, it's just required. How can you be taken seriously when there are only two pedals in the footwell??

Sidenote: It saddens me that Ferrari chose a SMG-like transmission as the only one for it's new Enzo. Sure, the shifts may be quicker, but you just can't replace the feeling of that third pedal down there. It's half the fun. I really hope that this is not the upcoming trend for all future cars...

-Eric

schalliol

I'm not sure that the learning curve is that steep, but all the information you just stated doesn't seem to give a reason why it's better to have the manual. I can drive stick and do like the ability to choose the gear I want and move up/down some times.

Who puts what on his or her car isn't really relevant, but it's clear from the data about people driving stick in high school that very few will have stick shifts later, especially when the inflection point I mentioned is breeched. When it becomes technically no better to have the manual, what will you think? It seems like I posted while you were writing. Could you read my post and tell me what you think?

Kwijybo19

Well, I concluded that the learning curve to driving a manual was steep only because you can't simply step in and drive the car, like you can an auto. By drive, I don't mean be able to confidently take it on the highway immediately, but rather actually move the car and get a feel for it. With the clutch of course, you have to be able to modulate two different pedals at the same time, move your hand, steer and look ahead. I made that seem like a lot more than it really is, but for people who have never driven clutches, it is a big deal. By steep, I meant it starts out hard and then gets easier. In other words, being able to smoothly move the car from a dead stop with no perceptible delay from the next driver. After that point shifting is no problem. I have taught enough of my friends to realize this. First gear is horrible, they simply are not able to do it. When they actually do, which they usually accomplish by destroying the clutch, the shifting is easy becuase each motion can be done to the car in an almost individual motion. I always say, ok. Foot off gas. Check. Foot on clutch. Check. Move shifter. Check. Re-engage gas and disengage clutch. Done. Of course, this is only from my experiences, and let me tell you, I am not that coordinated! Lol.

As for why to drive a manual. You of course have much better control over the car (with manumatics that line blurs of course), but with a clutch, it just feels better. Part of it might just be that perception you get, (or maybe just the one that I get). In lower gears, it is much easier to gain traction than with an auto. This is especially helpful where I live (outside Buffalo) cuz, oh man, do we get a TON of SNOW!! Fuel economy is generally better (except with our TSX, ironically enough). That's all I can think of right now.

I mentioned the kids in my school that have autos. and ''pimp out'' their cars just b/c in my mind, it's just a prerequisite to have a manual before you do that sort of stuff. Perhaps something that only I would understand.

Perhaps the most disparaging point for myself: That sometime in the near future, it could be true that an SMG will be quicker than a manual. To be honest, I really don't know how to respond, because when that situation comes up, I really won't know what to do. Part of the allure to a clutch for me is that you are faster than a comparable automatic. When I drive an automatic, it just seems like I'm 'moving' the car, not 'driving' it. Do you know what I mean? I feel less involved. However, the other point to this topic is that these SMG systems are currently only available on high-end cars, ala M3 and Enzo. Who knows how long until this technology will trickle down to my $17,000 Civic? Until, then it's clutch for me! And when/if that time comes, I do not know what the hell I'll do.

By the way, I was typing right as you were posting, so my post was in response to the one that was one or two ahead of yours, and not yours per so. Although it is nice to have a nice friendly debate with someone else who is knowledgable about cars!

ClutchPerformer

Maybe I just have big feet...

Soze75

#1. I've never had a stoplight surprise me by changing. I look at the pedestrian signal to get a feel for how long the green will last, and I almost always have my foot cocked over the brake if I'm coming to a light that I've concluded will soon be changing. I play defense out on the roads.
#2. Who the hell uses two hands these days anyway? Driving test and then...done. Unless you're taking some sweet curves or something.
#3 I'm not one of these dudes who thinks 7 tenths of a second or whatever fookin marginal time difference matters. Really, I've never raced my car on a track being clocked by a digital stopwatch or whatever. Who gives a shit!
#4 I'll just have to take that dummy clutch pedal and whack yez over the head a couple of times!!

Give me the .9 second slower manual. I'll be having a blast still!

LONG LIVE THE MANUAL!!!

ClutchPerformer

First of all, welcome! You're in the right place, and we're glad to have you

A "dummy" clutch pedal won't do it. Faster shifts won't do it. Like Soze, I don't care if the AT is faster by any amount--I'll take the MT. This is not 100% about performance. It's about art (yes, art). Allow me to explain: whenever I make a good shift (especially a downshift), I feel like I've accomplished something. When I make a bad shift, there's something that I have to work on. The sportshift AT/tiptronic/SMG/whatever will make a perfect shift every time. Where's the fun in that?

I will still get the manual tranny. Here's something interesting: the TSX is the only car I can think of where the AT gets better gas mileage than the MT. Did that stop me (and others) from buying the MT. No sir.

BTW, Porsche Turbo drivers that don't know how to drive stick make me want to........

Soze75

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
That's exactly what gets me high!!
It's "fuck ya!" on perfect shifts and "damn, bullshit, bullshit!!" when it doesn't feel smooth.
(cussing is mandatory to fully explain how emotional I get over shifting quality)
SHIFT ON CP!!!!!

ClutchPerformer

I understand you COMPLETELY! I'm the same way. Shift on, Soze!

Soze75

Y'all know we're right!!!

schalliol

Thanks! Glad to be here.

Nor I. I'm refering to reaction times, as in it takes you about a second to do any action when an event happens (could be a break light on a car). This is just from scientific articles I've seen and I wanted to draw attention to the added time necessary to do shifts when you aren't expeccting to, especially if you don't have an F1 style shifter. Example, you have to shift to a lower gear and floor it to get around someone who's about to hit you.

I was talking about "some sweet curves" or surprising events that require evasive driving. Though it surprises me to hear someone so intent on using a manual to imply that they're doing something with the other hand while not shifting. I thought it was all about the drive? hehehWhat if I took out another part of the car that was done automatically (hmm, like air compressor control) and gave you this control? Would that do it for you? It seems that you just want to feel like there was skill involved in your operation of the car, even if it could be done automatically better. I have a VCR here that you have to finesse to get it to eject a tape, would you like to send me your working version for this one? What is it about the manual that you like? Do you choose to wash dishes by hand because you get the enjoyment of doing it yourself? This is an interesting thing to contemplate, why you like it (being serious, not jabbing at you at all).I certainly here you there! My favorite was when some guy about 5 years ago revved his engine and looked at me at a stoplight. I slightly gunned it in my old V6 Camry and I just heard the grinding from the Turbo and was at the next stoplight before him (then he got it and was gone).

Soze75

I'm getting the shit jabbed out of me here.

#1 - I'll get hit no matter what. Deer in the headlights. I'll need about six accidents to actually become good enough to think that quickly. "screeeeeeeech" or I guess its "thud, thud, thud, thud" ABS? I've never used it yet.

#2 - When I'm in traffic, I'm rarely really "driving" like I do when I'm alone on the road. When I'm breaking the law and such(rare), my hands go back on the wheel. I should have explained that better.

#3 - :ghey: hehe

#4 - it's all about the athlete in me. I think pro racers consider their driving a sport. It's good for my calf as well. And it relates to the perfectionist condition that I suffer from.

#5 - I like Porsche Turbos. Especially the last 993 widebody ones.

Peace, schalliol.

ClutchPerformer

That's all well and good (and true), but the fact is that the auto can't start reacting (downshift-wise) until you actually push the pedal down. I can start reacting as soon a I see the event. If you're talking about a driver-selectable auto/sequential manual/etc., I submit that actually tugging on the stick takes an equal amount of time as a shift in the manual. Steering wheel buttons/paddles will have an advantage..... But they're soulless.

I see what you're saying, and you're right that I would not rather have a manual A/C control. But this line of reasoning gets ridiculous really quick. I'm talking about driving here. And I like the automatic A/C because it lets me drive MORE, not less.

To use your VCR example: I like VCR features that allow me to watch MORE videos. Therefore, I wouldn't want to own your VCR which is hard to eject a tape from (it's like driving a manual car that won't let you put it in first gear--it becomes so inconvenient that the driving experience is lost).

You make good points, but I don't think we'll ever convince each other. The discussion is fun, though.

schalliol

Guys/gals(?), yeah, it's all meant in good spirit. When I said no jabs were intended, they aren't, but I am trying to determine what actually "drives" you to like the manual. After all this thread says "a dying art?"

I guess I don't understand here, with a "fully automatic" transmission, yes, your car can't react until you push the pedal, but isn't the same true for the shift? The high schooler noted all the steps involved earlier in shifting, boy if you have to think about it like he does when he needs to zoom out of the way....= You at least have to hit the clutch, shift and modulate your pedal. This can of course be done quickly, but the user response of floor to pedal is faster IF the controller is super-super fast.

Agreed, and I was talking full auto. However, if you're keeping full throttle and hit the stick and it shifts instantly (theoretically), then you have the issue of the other things you have to do on a user operated clutch system. We'll see when they're faster.Mystifying.

From the things I read it seems like at least those of you responding just want to be performing a function of the car, so you feel like you're some kick ass driver, when it might not matter at all and you could be slowing the car down. Quite interesting. For auto drivers it's simple, I'm willing to take a performance hit for the ease of not shifting. I do understand the issue about the examples I made, but changing the transmission's gear manually may have the same effect as the AC system, a poor shift that was affected by human error when a smoother, faster shift might be available (and you can select gears with a semi-auto too). Why do they use paddle shifters on F1 cars, clearly the intention is to make an improvement.

mojo_RENAMED

I don't think it's performance, convenience, speed, or anything else but control that manual drivers like. Control over exactly what the engine is doing, when it will shift, what kind of power you'll have coming out of the turn, etc.

I have a manual NSX and an auto TSX, and like it like that. My TSX gives me the convenience, and when I want speed and control, I switch cars. It's a bit frustrating to be in the TSX and have it upshift when I know that I'll need to be in that gear soon; this is where the control comes in. Yes, I know there's the "sportshift," but it's not the same.

Sit in Atlanta (or any conjested city) traffic for several hours, and a auto becomes a nice feature...

Even if/when autos become faster, you still won't have the control that I'm talking about.

Crazytree

I live in Los Angeles and have a heavy commute. Manual is not an option.

vwong

I don't get it. Why would you compare A/C with tranny? They are two different things. A/C (BTW, A/C stands for air conditioning, not air compressor :p) is a comfort feature. With the auto A/C (or as some manufacturers call it auto climate control), it allows the driver to concentrate more on driving once the desired cabin temperature is set. MT or AT, on the other hand, is driving preference.

schalliol

That is what it seems (control), though SMG II is quite close to that. In fact, the semi-autos do allow you to choose what gear you're in, when it will shift, and what kind of power you have coming out of the turn. So for your commute, you go full auto and you go to semi otherwise. Semi-auto lacks the speed of the shift precisely, for now.

vwong

Me too, but it doesn't bother me a bit. Been driving a manual car since 3 months after I got my DL when I was 17. My wife has been driving a manual car since 1999, and it doesn't bother her at all. In fact, she's loving it. For me, auto is not an option (unless it's a full size pickup as my tow vehicle for my race car ).

mojo_RENAMED

Duh. He was trying to make the point that just because you need to operate it doesn't inherently make it better. In the A/C example, if you had to turn the a/c on and off when you got hot/cold, would that make it a better experience? Of course not...

schalliol

I'm very aware what A/C stands for. Like the (poor) VCR example, I'm trying to illustrate that if an auto with a semi-auto mode can do everything the manual can, but faster, what's the point of the manual? It seems that the people replying here just like the feel of doing it themselves, effectively replacing a more effecient system of the car with their arm, as in the message I just posted.

EDIT: Thanks, mojo, for the "fun" reply while I was replying to his reply. (hah, this is named pimpgrin -> http://www.shoppper.com/)