Manual Cars For Dummies
04-29-2004, 10:05 PM
#1
1st Gear
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Manual Cars For Dummies
Hi,
I'm a noob here.
Just wondering if a pro could write a detailed method for driving. Stick. Yes I have searched the forums, but I want an authoritative response from a pro.
So basically, here are my questions
1)When starting, is the procedure to clutch in, put it in first, slowly release the clutch and when it "grabs" add gas OR is it to release the clutch and add gas even before it "grabs".
2) What is rev matching (please explain for dummies. Explain every minute detail)
3)When upshifting should I
a) rev it to lets say 3k and let clutch in, select the next gear and slowly release the clutch, while adding gas from the very start of the release
OR
b) add gas when it "grabs"
4) Is it okay after an upshift for the rmps to drop about 2ks or is this not okay
5) how can you burn out your clutch.
Any answers would be very mutch appreciated by this noob.
Thanks again!
I'm a noob here.
Just wondering if a pro could write a detailed method for driving. Stick. Yes I have searched the forums, but I want an authoritative response from a pro.
So basically, here are my questions
1)When starting, is the procedure to clutch in, put it in first, slowly release the clutch and when it "grabs" add gas OR is it to release the clutch and add gas even before it "grabs".
2) What is rev matching (please explain for dummies. Explain every minute detail)
3)When upshifting should I
a) rev it to lets say 3k and let clutch in, select the next gear and slowly release the clutch, while adding gas from the very start of the release
OR
b) add gas when it "grabs"
4) Is it okay after an upshift for the rmps to drop about 2ks or is this not okay
5) how can you burn out your clutch.
Any answers would be very mutch appreciated by this noob.
Thanks again!
04-29-2004, 10:54 PM
#2
Cruisin'
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hi, i'm not sure if i am considered a pro but I've been driving a manual car for over 6 years now and have a turboed b18c1 civic with the orignal clutch for over 60K now. Not many people believe me and the few that have driven my car will attest that the STOCK clutch still grabs like it's new.
1.) What you should aim for is releasing the clutch and hitting the gas at the same time. When the both pedal become on the same level, you basically achieve the perfect start/shift. When learning it is much easier to hold clutch in, put a lil gas, release clutch. This will guarantee you not to stall but it tends to burn the clutch if you put too much gas. Best way to do it is hold clutch in, release clutch and press gas at the same time. Remember the clutch should be either all the way up or all the way down. This motion should be VERY fluid and you really shouldn't feather the clutch if you can avoid it.
2.) Whenever you downshift at a relatively high rpm you should notice the car jerking. Usually what happens is by the time you downshift your rpm's will drop quite a bit. Rev matching is basically keeping the revs around the same RPM when you downshift to slow down. I've seen two ways of achieving this, 1.) heel/toe (pressing brake, gas, and letting go of clutch at the same time after the shift). This gives the effect that your car is slowing down really fast and very smooth. My friends do this VERY well and is a MUST if you do mountain carving. 2.) high gear, clutch in, low gear, blip the gas, let go of clutch, then brake if necessary. 2.) is very easy to do and you'll notice the car will slow down MUCH smoother although isn't as effective as #1 for fast stops. You DEFINITELY want to learn #2 if you drive in the snow. If you just down shift in the snow without some sort of rev matching you WILL lose traction due to the drastic change in force. As stupid as it sounds I drove through the freaking blizzard like 2 years ago on Kumho 712's for 100 miles and didn't lose much traction unless I was doing a turn.
3.) the perfect upshift is the same as 1.)
4.) I don't have my TSX yet so I don't know. Basically if you feel the car studdering, it's too low. I usually shift around 3k-3.5K on my gsr civic.
5.) if you hold your clutch in, gas, then let go of the clutch u will burn. Also you really shouldn't 'feather' your clutch much. You should either have it all the way up or all the way down. If you let the clutch out slowly and press the gas down too quick you will burn it out also.
hopefully this has helped. Rev matching is something most people don't really learn about or know about becaus eyou can get by without it. I suggest you learn how to shift smoother and properly so that you don't burn out your clutch. I have met people that had to replace their oem clutches by 10K miles due to bad clutch techniques.
1.) What you should aim for is releasing the clutch and hitting the gas at the same time. When the both pedal become on the same level, you basically achieve the perfect start/shift. When learning it is much easier to hold clutch in, put a lil gas, release clutch. This will guarantee you not to stall but it tends to burn the clutch if you put too much gas. Best way to do it is hold clutch in, release clutch and press gas at the same time. Remember the clutch should be either all the way up or all the way down. This motion should be VERY fluid and you really shouldn't feather the clutch if you can avoid it.
2.) Whenever you downshift at a relatively high rpm you should notice the car jerking. Usually what happens is by the time you downshift your rpm's will drop quite a bit. Rev matching is basically keeping the revs around the same RPM when you downshift to slow down. I've seen two ways of achieving this, 1.) heel/toe (pressing brake, gas, and letting go of clutch at the same time after the shift). This gives the effect that your car is slowing down really fast and very smooth. My friends do this VERY well and is a MUST if you do mountain carving. 2.) high gear, clutch in, low gear, blip the gas, let go of clutch, then brake if necessary. 2.) is very easy to do and you'll notice the car will slow down MUCH smoother although isn't as effective as #1 for fast stops. You DEFINITELY want to learn #2 if you drive in the snow. If you just down shift in the snow without some sort of rev matching you WILL lose traction due to the drastic change in force. As stupid as it sounds I drove through the freaking blizzard like 2 years ago on Kumho 712's for 100 miles and didn't lose much traction unless I was doing a turn.
3.) the perfect upshift is the same as 1.)
4.) I don't have my TSX yet so I don't know. Basically if you feel the car studdering, it's too low. I usually shift around 3k-3.5K on my gsr civic.
5.) if you hold your clutch in, gas, then let go of the clutch u will burn. Also you really shouldn't 'feather' your clutch much. You should either have it all the way up or all the way down. If you let the clutch out slowly and press the gas down too quick you will burn it out also.
hopefully this has helped. Rev matching is something most people don't really learn about or know about becaus eyou can get by without it. I suggest you learn how to shift smoother and properly so that you don't burn out your clutch. I have met people that had to replace their oem clutches by 10K miles due to bad clutch techniques.
04-30-2004, 08:44 AM
#5
04 remembrance
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I usually don't say this but......try the search button.
http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...=driving+stick
http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...=driving+stick
etc.
http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...=driving+stick
http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...=driving+stick
etc.
04-30-2004, 10:49 AM
#6
The Voice of Reason
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Originally posted by prophet
hi, i'm not sure if i am considered a pro but I've been driving a manual car for over 6 years now and have a turboed b18c1 civic with the orignal clutch for over 60K now. Not many people believe me and the few that have driven my car will attest that the STOCK clutch still grabs like it's new.
hi, i'm not sure if i am considered a pro but I've been driving a manual car for over 6 years now and have a turboed b18c1 civic with the orignal clutch for over 60K now. Not many people believe me and the few that have driven my car will attest that the STOCK clutch still grabs like it's new.
I've now accumulated 141,000 miles on my '98 Volvo V70 T5 (turbo) and it still has the original clutch and the 5-speed manual transmission still shifts like new... (Vastly exceeding my expectations!)
Anyway, this may be hard to explain, but the car "tells" you when it's "happy" and you've executed a good shift. It doesn't buck, or scream and there's no acrid smell of burning clutch lining.
This is much like any physical task that requires integration of sight, sound and feel to complete, most of it is unconscious. Ask Tiger Woods how to hit a golf ball! A well-executed manual transmission shift can be smother than an automatic transmission shift once you get the "hang" of it. (In my case that took about 10 years.
) So.... practice, practice, practice, and the "best" car to learn on is probably a car that's not your own!At the Skip Barber driving school the vehicles they use on the skidpad are Dodge pickup trucks with bald tires on the rear ... they all have manual trannies and gobs of torque and I'd guess they'd pull from a standstill in third ... a pickup truck probably isn't bad vehicle to learn how to shift on. Do you happen to have a (very) good friend with one?
04-30-2004, 10:51 AM
#7
Cruisin'
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here is a cool article i found searching via google.
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/how...2/article.html
Heel toe is probally one of the hardest things to do and remember it is freaking DANGEROUS to do this in traffic or on a public road if you don't know what you are doing. You can tell when you do this correct because it should feel REALLY smooth.
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/how...2/article.html
Heel toe is probally one of the hardest things to do and remember it is freaking DANGEROUS to do this in traffic or on a public road if you don't know what you are doing. You can tell when you do this correct because it should feel REALLY smooth.
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04-30-2004, 11:55 AM
#8
Orangeblood
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I am quick with the clutch (in/out) on all shifts but launch in first. I don't think I feather a great deal, but am definitely slower than others.
Am I being a 'tard and sizzling my clutch?
Am I being a 'tard and sizzling my clutch?
04-30-2004, 12:02 PM
#9
Race Director
The only thing releasing the clutch quicker will get you is a lurch,a stall or a spining tire. A little feathering won't hurt too much. Just practice some more.
04-30-2004, 12:31 PM
#10
Cruisin'
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Im actually learning to stick in an 92 celica. I've stalled a few times in first, and chirped the tires too. All of this on a busy road. The way I drive is that I let out the clutch till it starts to catch, so it doesn't roll backwards, and then I give it some gas, slowly let out the clutch, and give it more gas, then let out the clutch fully when all is smooth. I'm not burning the clutch doing this am I? I haven't smelled any burn when I drive it.
04-30-2004, 12:39 PM
#11
Race Director
By the time you smell a burnt clutch it's too late. You should pratice your first gear take off technique on flat ground - starting up hill (rolling backwards) is one of the trickiest things to get right - that's way more advanced than this class. That's when you learn things like using the hand brake.
04-30-2004, 12:43 PM
#12
Cruisin'
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Originally posted by biker
By the time you smell a burnt clutch it's too late. You should pratice your first gear take off technique on flat ground - starting up hill (rolling backwards) is one of the trickiest things to get right - that's way more advanced than this class. That's when you learn things like using the hand brake.
By the time you smell a burnt clutch it's too late. You should pratice your first gear take off technique on flat ground - starting up hill (rolling backwards) is one of the trickiest things to get right - that's way more advanced than this class. That's when you learn things like using the hand brake.
04-30-2004, 12:56 PM
#13
Race Director
A high idle will help some for newbies. The only way to avoid rolling backwards when starting uphill is to use the hand brake, let the clutch out some until it starts to grab, apply some more gas and then slowly let go of the hand brake.
Even the best MT drivers will have a short roll backwards when starting uphill - and the steeper the hill the more deliberate you have to be about the clutch engagement/application of throttle.
Even the best MT drivers will have a short roll backwards when starting uphill - and the steeper the hill the more deliberate you have to be about the clutch engagement/application of throttle.
06-09-2004, 04:29 PM
#14
Just dial 1911
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About the rolling, once you get the hang of it, you can also just give a tiny bit of gas and sit right on the grab spot of the clutch and if you do it right, you wont need to break. Your car should just sit there. When the light turns green, give it the gas and come up on the clutch.
06-09-2004, 05:04 PM
#15
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MT Deserter
Been driving MT (1990 Legend) past 7 years, same car, honestly I can not say I am 100% effective with it all the time and it upsets me whenever the inperfection occurs....yeah, dummie me... so I just gave up & got AT this time round.
That's me...I've had it with MT
1) Not "young" anymore. Got lazy in general
2) Don't really care about outmanuvering/outaccelerating.(don't wanna stress my little beauty; )
3) Got lazy...have had it with traffic congestion.
4) No longer willing to put up the effort for going uphill....going reverse (just wanna back up 2 inches and I gotta give gas !?)
I do miss the downshifting to slow down thou.
That's me...I've had it with MT
1) Not "young" anymore. Got lazy in general
2) Don't really care about outmanuvering/outaccelerating.(don't wanna stress my little beauty; )
3) Got lazy...have had it with traffic congestion.
4) No longer willing to put up the effort for going uphill....going reverse (just wanna back up 2 inches and I gotta give gas !?)
I do miss the downshifting to slow down thou.
06-10-2004, 03:44 AM
#16
Instructor
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Its funny, in Europe most ppl find it hard to drive an AT !
ATs good for traffic but you have way more control over the car with a MT.
Ernie
www.eazi-k.com/accord
ATs good for traffic but you have way more control over the car with a MT.
Ernie
www.eazi-k.com/accord
06-10-2004, 05:56 AM
#17
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Originally Posted by NocturnalTSX
Could you elaborate a bit more on "heel/toe" ?
Double Clutching
First of all let's deal with the "double declutching " issue. This is really only the British term for 'double clutching' and makes reference in some way I suppose, to the fact that it is usually a downshifting maneuver in disengaging the clutch. The first stage in a full 'heel and toe' gear change is the simple use of double clutching. On its own this is a fairly simple little dance of the toes and it goes like this:
1. You are driving along in your TR, MG or whatever in third gear for example, approaching a corner and preparing to shift to second. You brake with the left edge of the ball of your right foot as usual.
2. Depressing the clutch with your left foot the shift lever passes through neutral as this happens you release the clutch pedal out again half way, thus setting the mechanics of the clutch assembly in motion again.
3. Then fully depress the clutch to complete your shift into second.
That my friends is a double declutching. It might sound odd in print but is quite simple in action. Practice it in the driveway, with the engine off so you don't hit anything. The aim is to keep the engine and the clutch plates turning at the same speed for the moment when they engage themselves. Your car will thank you especially if you have an older vehicle that lacks effective synchromesh.
Heal and Toe
The next step is a true "Heel and Toe". Naturally it goes without saying that this does not really involve your heel and toe! The name is just to make it harder to understand! (Actually it stems from a rather odd set up in the old Ferraris where the clutch and the brake pedals were switched-but that's another matter.) The technique involves combining the double clutch method with a second technique that keeps the engine RPM at a level to match the next gear to be engaged.
Everyone has had the experience of changing down into a lower gear and having the engine forced into screaming high revolutions. The other thing that happens is that the weight of the car suddenly shifts forward due to the 'engine braking effect'. If you happen to be going into a corner this can be enough to lighten the rear end and send the tail out on a visit to the front end! Here's where the heel and toe technique comes in. Unless you have a third leg you have to brake and 'blip' the gas with your right foot. The tricky part is timing it all right and keeping the brake pressure steady while you do the 'blipping'. A note of warning here. If you practice this in your driveway as I suggested for double clutching, some of the newer cars will flood as a result of the gas pedal movement (yes! even without the engine running). So if this happens just go off and have a cup of tea and let things settle for a while before heading off to try it in motion. Here we go:
1. Begin the downshift as before, using the left edge of the right foot to brake. Depress the clutch and shift into neutral.
2. Now, as you're half releasing the clutch, swing (or rock) the right edge and heel of your brake foot over onto the gas pedal and squeeze it gently to bring up the engine RPM. With experience you'll get to know how much is enough.
3. Then depress the clutch and complete the shift into second. The plates should have been spinning from your double clutching and the engine RPM, which dropped while you were shifting, was brought back up to the level needed by the next gear ratio. Everything just slipped together without a murmur, and there was no forward weight shift or unwanted acceleration of the car. Swing your right foot fully on to the gas, and you're off down the straight.
Confused? I was too, and I "sort of know" how to do it. Actually the brain is not capable of doing this at all-the method has to leave the area of your brain and become a fluid physical skill. You drive along and your hands and feet do it all, without you really being aware of it; it's a great technique to master!
-Thanks Chris Ball, Technical Editor, Toronto Triumph Club
First of all let's deal with the "double declutching " issue. This is really only the British term for 'double clutching' and makes reference in some way I suppose, to the fact that it is usually a downshifting maneuver in disengaging the clutch. The first stage in a full 'heel and toe' gear change is the simple use of double clutching. On its own this is a fairly simple little dance of the toes and it goes like this:
1. You are driving along in your TR, MG or whatever in third gear for example, approaching a corner and preparing to shift to second. You brake with the left edge of the ball of your right foot as usual.
2. Depressing the clutch with your left foot the shift lever passes through neutral as this happens you release the clutch pedal out again half way, thus setting the mechanics of the clutch assembly in motion again.
3. Then fully depress the clutch to complete your shift into second.
That my friends is a double declutching. It might sound odd in print but is quite simple in action. Practice it in the driveway, with the engine off so you don't hit anything. The aim is to keep the engine and the clutch plates turning at the same speed for the moment when they engage themselves. Your car will thank you especially if you have an older vehicle that lacks effective synchromesh.
Heal and Toe
The next step is a true "Heel and Toe". Naturally it goes without saying that this does not really involve your heel and toe! The name is just to make it harder to understand! (Actually it stems from a rather odd set up in the old Ferraris where the clutch and the brake pedals were switched-but that's another matter.) The technique involves combining the double clutch method with a second technique that keeps the engine RPM at a level to match the next gear to be engaged.
Everyone has had the experience of changing down into a lower gear and having the engine forced into screaming high revolutions. The other thing that happens is that the weight of the car suddenly shifts forward due to the 'engine braking effect'. If you happen to be going into a corner this can be enough to lighten the rear end and send the tail out on a visit to the front end! Here's where the heel and toe technique comes in. Unless you have a third leg you have to brake and 'blip' the gas with your right foot. The tricky part is timing it all right and keeping the brake pressure steady while you do the 'blipping'. A note of warning here. If you practice this in your driveway as I suggested for double clutching, some of the newer cars will flood as a result of the gas pedal movement (yes! even without the engine running). So if this happens just go off and have a cup of tea and let things settle for a while before heading off to try it in motion. Here we go:
1. Begin the downshift as before, using the left edge of the right foot to brake. Depress the clutch and shift into neutral.
2. Now, as you're half releasing the clutch, swing (or rock) the right edge and heel of your brake foot over onto the gas pedal and squeeze it gently to bring up the engine RPM. With experience you'll get to know how much is enough.
3. Then depress the clutch and complete the shift into second. The plates should have been spinning from your double clutching and the engine RPM, which dropped while you were shifting, was brought back up to the level needed by the next gear ratio. Everything just slipped together without a murmur, and there was no forward weight shift or unwanted acceleration of the car. Swing your right foot fully on to the gas, and you're off down the straight.
Confused? I was too, and I "sort of know" how to do it. Actually the brain is not capable of doing this at all-the method has to leave the area of your brain and become a fluid physical skill. You drive along and your hands and feet do it all, without you really being aware of it; it's a great technique to master!
-Thanks Chris Ball, Technical Editor, Toronto Triumph Club
Personally, I use heel-toe about 40% of the time on day-to-day driving. I could do it more, but it can happens I just don't feel like giving it the effort. However, when you heel-toe, the smoothness really increases in downshifts, to the point where passengers can be fooled in thinking you have an automatic car if they don't care to notice the stick.
I don't know in what situations can heel-toe be dangerous in daily driving, other than if you still need to practice and you're in bumper to bumper traffic. Other than that it's a safe technique IMO, and your transmition assembly will reward you with prolonged durability.
06-10-2004, 09:02 AM
#18
6th Gear
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Originally Posted by joerockt
About the rolling, once you get the hang of it, you can also just give a tiny bit of gas and sit right on the grab spot of the clutch and if you do it right, you wont need to break. Your car should just sit there. When the light turns green, give it the gas and come up on the clutch.
Rev matching-- 25 mph in 2nd gear might have the engine at 3200 RPM. 25 mph in 3rd gear might be at 2500 RPM.
Rev matching on an upshift from 2nd to 3rd: When you step on the clutch and take your foot off the gas, the engine RPM will drop. Shift from 2nd to 3rd and if you're timing is right, the engine is at 2500RPM as you let the clutch out in 3rd, resulting in a smooth shift and less clutch wear.
Rev matching on a downshift from 3rd to 2nd: Step on the clutch and blip the throttle, so the engine revs from 2500 to 3200, then grab 2nd and let the clutch out. Done right, the gear change will be perfectly smooth.
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