J.D. Power Most Dependable Vehicle Report
#41
Originally Posted by SaraWI
I agree Still trying to wrap my brain around this. How can someone with a household income of $54k afford a $30k+ vehicle?? Furthermore, why is it that the ave income of Accord owners higher than that of BMW??? Is it that Accord owners know and want a good deal?
Like you said, SaraWI, probably the Accord owners are less excentric by nature and know and want a good deal. And it's not because you have a high income that you will automatically drive a high-end car. Jean Todt drives to work every day in his Fiat 500.
#42
Originally Posted by SaraWI
I agree Still trying to wrap my brain around this. How can someone with a household income of $54k afford a $30k+ vehicle?? Furthermore, why is it that the ave income of Accord owners higher than that of BMW??? Is it that Accord owners know and want a good deal?
1. The Honda guy is better trained with FInances. As he owns a house, has a degree, probably could get a 3 something but decided to save the money and get an Accord instead. So possibly the extra income saved from owning the Accord goes into investing, for a 7 series later.
2. The BMW person is more concerned with looks and APPEARING rich. Since they also think they dress better than most (which means they spend tons on clothes). Since cars are depreciating assets, they did not mention a house, they spend tons on clothes (probaby food too), well you have your average BMW Prick.
I noticed with people I know and my experiences, that M3 and 328/330 owners are usually cool and knowledgeable about cars. I noticed ther 323 and 325 owners are usually the pricks and don't know shit besides badges.
And you can make 54k a year and own a 70k vehicle if you have excellent credit and if you have no other monthly payments to like credit cards and other debt. And you don't plan on investing or saving for the future.
#43
kids/family lifestyle maybe? i don't see too many baby seats in 3-series... accords are better family cars i would think.
btw, from jd power report to "bmw are great cars" thread: yarrrr, it seems this here thread be hijacked!
btw, from jd power report to "bmw are great cars" thread: yarrrr, it seems this here thread be hijacked!
#44
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
2. The BMW person is more concerned with looks and APPEARING rich. Since they also think they dress better than most (which means they spend tons on clothes). Since cars are depreciating assets, they did not mention a house, they spend tons on clothes (probaby food too), well you have your average BMW Prick.
I noticed with people I know and my experiences, that M3 and 328/330 owners are usually cool and knowledgeable about cars. I noticed ther 323 and 325 owners are usually the pricks and don't know shit besides badges.
I noticed with people I know and my experiences, that M3 and 328/330 owners are usually cool and knowledgeable about cars. I noticed ther 323 and 325 owners are usually the pricks and don't know shit besides badges.
#45
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Manual to the wrong wheels= :-* I mean I can appreciate it but I'll just keep a Civic manual. Shit my ES 300 is a manual. Wrong wheels though.
#46
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Hmmm, just an educated guess but it's kinda saying
1. The Honda guy is better trained with FInances. As he owns a house, has a degree, probably could get a 3 something but decided to save the money and get an Accord instead. So possibly the extra income saved from owning the Accord goes into investing, for a 7 series later.
2. The BMW person is more concerned with looks and APPEARING rich. Since they also think they dress better than most (which means they spend tons on clothes). Since cars are depreciating assets, they did not mention a house, they spend tons on clothes (probaby food too), well you have your average BMW Prick.
I noticed with people I know and my experiences, that M3 and 328/330 owners are usually cool and knowledgeable about cars. I noticed ther 323 and 325 owners are usually the pricks and don't know shit besides badges.
And you can make 54k a year and own a 70k vehicle if you have excellent credit and if you have no other monthly payments to like credit cards and other debt. And you don't plan on investing or saving for the future.
1. The Honda guy is better trained with FInances. As he owns a house, has a degree, probably could get a 3 something but decided to save the money and get an Accord instead. So possibly the extra income saved from owning the Accord goes into investing, for a 7 series later.
2. The BMW person is more concerned with looks and APPEARING rich. Since they also think they dress better than most (which means they spend tons on clothes). Since cars are depreciating assets, they did not mention a house, they spend tons on clothes (probaby food too), well you have your average BMW Prick.
I noticed with people I know and my experiences, that M3 and 328/330 owners are usually cool and knowledgeable about cars. I noticed ther 323 and 325 owners are usually the pricks and don't know shit besides badges.
And you can make 54k a year and own a 70k vehicle if you have excellent credit and if you have no other monthly payments to like credit cards and other debt. And you don't plan on investing or saving for the future.
I disagree about the car though. If you're making $54K a year, there is no way you would qualify for a $70K vehicle on your own. Even with an excellent credit rating a dealership would have to be foolish to grant a loan to someone who doesn't make at least 90% of the cars value. The only way you could pull this off is to demonstrate that you have other sources of income or if you get someone else to co-sign with you who has excellent credit as well and makes at least $100K.
Of course, that's my opinion, but maybe someone who is a finance person for a dealership could corroborate?
#47
Originally Posted by CGTSX2004
You make some good points there, LEX.
I disagree about the car though. If you're making $54K a year, there is no way you would qualify for a $70K vehicle on your own. Even with an excellent credit rating a dealership would have to be foolish to grant a loan to someone who doesn't make at least 90% of the cars value. The only way you could pull this off is to demonstrate that you have other sources of income or if you get someone else to co-sign with you who has excellent credit as well and makes at least $100K.
Of course, that's my opinion, but maybe someone who is a finance person for a dealership could corroborate?
I disagree about the car though. If you're making $54K a year, there is no way you would qualify for a $70K vehicle on your own. Even with an excellent credit rating a dealership would have to be foolish to grant a loan to someone who doesn't make at least 90% of the cars value. The only way you could pull this off is to demonstrate that you have other sources of income or if you get someone else to co-sign with you who has excellent credit as well and makes at least $100K.
Of course, that's my opinion, but maybe someone who is a finance person for a dealership could corroborate?
Sure they want to tell them to slow down but many Finance companies will take a chance as they don't care. The dealer wants to sell cars as well.
Or they may give the guy the loan but the company taking the chance gives a higher interest rate.
But I do agree with your post.
ES300 with a manual? How did you manage to get one of those. I didn't even know they made a manual ES300.
Took me a year in a half to find the white/black GS 400 I had.
Not sure what I want yet, so I'm back to the ES enjoying 1 less note. The LS-2 2005 GTO is calling me. WIth the rebates now offered and with my companies X-plan, I'm looking at under 30k for the 2004. I hope the 2005 doesn't change this situation.
#48
Originally Posted by CGTSX2004
If you're making $54K a year, there is no way you would qualify for a $70K vehicle on your own. Even with an excellent credit rating a dealership would have to be foolish to grant a loan to someone who doesn't make at least 90% of the cars value. The only way you could pull this off is to demonstrate that you have other sources of income or if you get someone else to co-sign with you who has excellent credit as well and makes at least $100K.
#49
Holy toledo! A thread discussing Honda/Acura with BMW and Lexus, without it becoming a fanboy/flame thread!
Yay for intelligent people!
And 1SICKLEX is probably right. When I was shopping around for a car, the first thing people told me to get was a 3-series. And most of them were paying insane amounts for their car payments.
While I could just as easily have gotten the car and pay like $100/month (assuming I put the $28,000 like I did for the TSX), I just felt I didn't need to start young and have debts. So I took the "cheap" way out and bought a TSX with cash.
Yay for intelligent people!
And 1SICKLEX is probably right. When I was shopping around for a car, the first thing people told me to get was a 3-series. And most of them were paying insane amounts for their car payments.
While I could just as easily have gotten the car and pay like $100/month (assuming I put the $28,000 like I did for the TSX), I just felt I didn't need to start young and have debts. So I took the "cheap" way out and bought a TSX with cash.
#50
Originally Posted by kenbiddulph
Heyitsme:
I never said older people accept these problems, I said they are unaware of them.
This is partly due to their reduced senses but also because of the cars they buy (boats with no road feel, Buicks/Cadillacs and Toyota Camry's even)
I'm not sure what your obsession is with my ass but I assure you I pull nothing out of it.
As for accusing me of being a Honda fanboy. I am and not ashamed to say so. When they deserve criticism I am usually the first one there. I do it out of love for the brand as it is needed to keep them on the edge.
I never said older people accept these problems, I said they are unaware of them.
This is partly due to their reduced senses but also because of the cars they buy (boats with no road feel, Buicks/Cadillacs and Toyota Camry's even)
I'm not sure what your obsession is with my ass but I assure you I pull nothing out of it.
As for accusing me of being a Honda fanboy. I am and not ashamed to say so. When they deserve criticism I am usually the first one there. I do it out of love for the brand as it is needed to keep them on the edge.
You know what, now I know why lexus has been on top for so long. All those older buyers, spending their hard earned money on non sporty bland old people cars. So sad they don't even know so many problems exist within their cars, or at least they are unaware of those problems existing.
Now that its clear older buyers don't even know problems exist within their cars, its clear why so many customers shifted to the toyota brand over the years from the domestics. Considering the toyota brand caters to an older audience, its obvious now why they rank so high year after year. Their buyers who switched brands for some reason, maybe it was toyotas exciting styling, or maybe they have no sense of sight and thought they were at the chevy dealer, they are old. Its clear, toyota is a fluke too now, their buyers are statistically older, their cars are not sporty, and their buyers are unaware of their surroundings.
#51
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Hmmm, just an educated guess but it's kinda saying
1. The Honda guy is better trained with FInances. As he owns a house, has a degree, probably could get a 3 something but decided to save the money and get an Accord instead. So possibly the extra income saved from owning the Accord goes into investing, for a 7 series later.
2
1. The Honda guy is better trained with FInances. As he owns a house, has a degree, probably could get a 3 something but decided to save the money and get an Accord instead. So possibly the extra income saved from owning the Accord goes into investing, for a 7 series later.
2
#52
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
It took great patience 8 years ago. I only wanted one car and 1 color combo. Manual, white/black leather, loaded. I searched for a year serious and by pure luck, found it on a lot just waiting for me. They were only made 92-94 when Lexus was trying to position the ES as a sports sedan (whatever!) With our research at Clublexus, we are looking at less than 500 made and 10% were in my color combo.
#53
I'm not bashing Lexus at all, they make the most reliable cars in my opinion and it has been proven time and again to be a fact.
I AM pointing out that there is a REASON why a Buick LeSabre is more "reliable" than a Pontiac Grand Prix.
Its mostly due to the drivers being older and less well.. attentive towards their rides. Younger customers who buy more driver oriented cars (like a Grand Prix) will notice an engine noise more likely than an older one driving a Buick LeSabre. This is also partly due to the cars themselves. Buicks mask road feel, engine noise etc etc. Pontiacs have more input going to the driver and are not as insulated.
I am NOT bashing GM's quality, they have dramatically improved in some areas but they still have some catching up to do before they get my business.
So yes, I am a "fanboy" but I am an open-minded one that is trying to point out that there is far far more than meets the eye on these surveys.
Feel free to continue your comments. I'm immune.
I AM pointing out that there is a REASON why a Buick LeSabre is more "reliable" than a Pontiac Grand Prix.
Its mostly due to the drivers being older and less well.. attentive towards their rides. Younger customers who buy more driver oriented cars (like a Grand Prix) will notice an engine noise more likely than an older one driving a Buick LeSabre. This is also partly due to the cars themselves. Buicks mask road feel, engine noise etc etc. Pontiacs have more input going to the driver and are not as insulated.
I am NOT bashing GM's quality, they have dramatically improved in some areas but they still have some catching up to do before they get my business.
So yes, I am a "fanboy" but I am an open-minded one that is trying to point out that there is far far more than meets the eye on these surveys.
Feel free to continue your comments. I'm immune.
#54
Originally Posted by kenbiddulph
I'm not bashing Lexus at all, they make the most reliable cars in my opinion and it has been proven time and again to be a fact.
I AM pointing out that there is a REASON why a Buick LeSabre is more "reliable" than a Pontiac Grand Prix.
Its mostly due to the drivers being older and less well.. attentive towards their rides. Younger customers who buy more driver oriented cars (like a Grand Prix) will notice an engine noise more likely than an older one driving a Buick LeSabre. This is also partly due to the cars themselves. Buicks mask road feel, engine noise etc etc. Pontiacs have more input going to the driver and are not as insulated.
I am NOT bashing GM's quality, they have dramatically improved in some areas but they still have some catching up to do before they get my business.
So yes, I am a "fanboy" but I am an open-minded one that is trying to point out that there is far far more than meets the eye on these surveys.
Feel free to continue your comments. I'm immune.
I AM pointing out that there is a REASON why a Buick LeSabre is more "reliable" than a Pontiac Grand Prix.
Its mostly due to the drivers being older and less well.. attentive towards their rides. Younger customers who buy more driver oriented cars (like a Grand Prix) will notice an engine noise more likely than an older one driving a Buick LeSabre. This is also partly due to the cars themselves. Buicks mask road feel, engine noise etc etc. Pontiacs have more input going to the driver and are not as insulated.
I am NOT bashing GM's quality, they have dramatically improved in some areas but they still have some catching up to do before they get my business.
So yes, I am a "fanboy" but I am an open-minded one that is trying to point out that there is far far more than meets the eye on these surveys.
Feel free to continue your comments. I'm immune.
#57
You know what, now I know why lexus has been on top for so long. All those older buyers, spending their hard earned money on non sporty bland old people cars. So sad they don't even know so many problems exist within their cars, or at least they are unaware of those problems existing.
Lexus never scored 0 on the survey, they have problems. Lexus just has the least amount of issues.
Lexus plants have scored the highest ratings for quality as well.
The dealerships score the highest customer satisfaction rates.
The cars are the most trouble-free.
Quite frankly, Lexus would not be Lexus if they were problematic or average in reliablity. More than anything, people know when they buy a Lexus they have the best chance of owning a relatively trouble free car.
Wow...my mom has an ES300 years ago and I never saw a manual. That's kinda interesting that they would position that car as a sport sedan though...
Clearly buyers DID NOT buy it for sportiness but refinement and luxury so Lexus responded where it now rides as cushy as a Cadillac and the interior is incredible for the price. I get sea sick driving an ES 330 loaner.
The difference would be that in the Lexus the car maker does the masking in the Buick it's the driver that does the masking
#58
Originally Posted by bob shiftright
There are a lot of Federal employees in my neighborhood and they have been driving Benzes and Bimmers lately and I know how much they make 'cause it's all a matter of public record since it's on the GS scale. So the only way they could be buying these things is with second mortgages on their houses, which have appreciated to ridiculous levels over the last few years. All I gotta say about that idea is it's gonna get very interesting out here when the Boomers begin to turn 62 in 2007 and they all try to cash in their chips at once to retire to North Carolina!
That Accord/3-series driver demographic data is intriguing. I wonder if many of the 3-series lessees bring down the mean income level, and what they're mean income is
I've often wondered what true correlation there is between income and car prices. I'm willing to bet it's been skewed in the past 5-10 years. As sicklex has posted before, if the "average" new car price is $30k (I'm still waiting to see exactly what this figure is, since I think the average new car purchase is probably lower) then how the hell are so many people affording them??
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