i-VTEC vs. BMW's stuff
12-31-2005, 04:16 PM
#161
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Originally Posted by ruiner058
BMW and mercedes are both performance markers, and for tht reason the low end cars have existed for people who want to pretend they have ownership to that prestige... but especially in the case of the c class... underpowered was the only way to define that class of cars. Acura has now began to enter cars into the low end bmw range w/ more options which has lead bmw to bring their 325 back up above acura's highest end tsx. And as for the "frivolous features"... many of them really alter the car, in my opinion the xenon lights are a major pt. to how a bmw looks (which is totally awesome, those cars just look mean).
Peformance markers?!
12-31-2005, 04:31 PM
#162
Originally Posted by fedlawman
325 and c class cars had been a relative joke... finally acura is pushing them to put more respectable engines into their cars
Acura is not pushing BMW to do anything. BMW is the standard bearer for performance sedans and they are constantly improving the cars in order to stay on top. Other marques merely target the standard, and eventually catch it or beat it. Of course by then, BMW raises the standard again.
still would pay the extra cash for a 330 though.
I think the 330i is a good value only if you plan on getting options such as Leather interior, Xenon headlights, Logic 7 audio, etc. If you don't care about frivolous features and want the most car for the money, a $29,000 325i is the only way to go.
And i mean joke in the time frame of like 10 years, cuz before that the 3 was okay (and back then they did have a 4 cylinder)... almost all cars were a joke in the 80s
The E36 was a terrific car. It had great performance, and was a huge upgrade in comfort and refinement compared to the E30 it replaced. Reliability was a problem for the E36 however - it's widely known that BMW used computers to design the car to the inch to cut corners and save money wherever possible. That cost-cutting proved to have been a little too deep. The E46 remedied most of the problems the E36 had, at the expense of additional weight and a slight loss of the inimitable 3-series "feel."
In my opinion, the E30 is still the best of the 3-series. It's lightweight, powerful, and it's cost no object over-engineering means even to this day, they're bulletproof reliable. And did you know the E30 325i has about the same power:weight as the E90 325i? My 1988 325i makes about 175 peak HP and TQ at the crank, and weighs only 2700 lbs.
Technology has made cars safer and more comfortable, but not necessarily better performaing.
Acura is not pushing BMW to do anything. BMW is the standard bearer for performance sedans and they are constantly improving the cars in order to stay on top. Other marques merely target the standard, and eventually catch it or beat it. Of course by then, BMW raises the standard again.
still would pay the extra cash for a 330 though.
I think the 330i is a good value only if you plan on getting options such as Leather interior, Xenon headlights, Logic 7 audio, etc. If you don't care about frivolous features and want the most car for the money, a $29,000 325i is the only way to go.
And i mean joke in the time frame of like 10 years, cuz before that the 3 was okay (and back then they did have a 4 cylinder)... almost all cars were a joke in the 80s
The E36 was a terrific car. It had great performance, and was a huge upgrade in comfort and refinement compared to the E30 it replaced. Reliability was a problem for the E36 however - it's widely known that BMW used computers to design the car to the inch to cut corners and save money wherever possible. That cost-cutting proved to have been a little too deep. The E46 remedied most of the problems the E36 had, at the expense of additional weight and a slight loss of the inimitable 3-series "feel."
In my opinion, the E30 is still the best of the 3-series. It's lightweight, powerful, and it's cost no object over-engineering means even to this day, they're bulletproof reliable. And did you know the E30 325i has about the same power:weight as the E90 325i? My 1988 325i makes about 175 peak HP and TQ at the crank, and weighs only 2700 lbs.
Technology has made cars safer and more comfortable, but not necessarily better performaing.
BMW may be the standard bearer in this entry lux market, no matter how much hp Infiniti/MB puts in there cars, no matter how Honda comes close to matching their handling with a FWD vehicle. However, we all know honda will come up with a compelling arguement against spending thousands more for a comparable bimmer in a couple of years. The TSX did it to the E46 2.5 liter.
On the E30 vs. E36-E90: by far the last true 3 series with a link to the 2002ti. I could not agree with you on the reliability, cuz my dad had an 85 528e that had a ton of problems after 100k, but I felt the lost their way with the E36 (which I had new in 94). While I like the E36, I felt the Integra 4-dr that I had was more fun to drive (and just as quick). The E30 was a better no-nonsense handler while the E36 went towards the luxury end of the scale.
12-31-2005, 04:41 PM
#163
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Originally Posted by waTSX
After reading most of your posts, I have to say you have a really unusual view of the world in general, and automakers in particular.
Peformance markers?!
Peformance markers?!
12-31-2005, 04:41 PM
#164
Originally Posted by ruiner058
BMW and mercedes are both performance markers, and for tht reason the low end cars have existed for people who want to pretend they have ownership to that prestige... but especially in the case of the c class... underpowered was the only way to define that class of cars. Acura has now began to enter cars into the low end bmw range w/ more options which has lead bmw to bring their 325 back up above acura's highest end tsx. And as for the "frivolous features"... many of them really alter the car, in my opinion the xenon lights are a major pt. to how a bmw looks (which is totally awesome, those cars just look mean).
12-31-2005, 06:48 PM
#165
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E30 325i runs bloody hard. My friend had one. It was 150,000 miles, auto. It out accelerated my TSX. No problems with reliability too. That was a trus driver's car. No trying to make the car look good through luxury. It was an actual car that was good because it drove good.
Too bad some asshole who parked next to his car had pissed some mafia people off. The car got torched and as a result his 325i suffered burns on the right side. He sold it of for 10% the value, and got an E34 535i instead. He's had a few problems with the 535i. So for him, the reliability of the E30 was good, but E34 not so.
Too bad some asshole who parked next to his car had pissed some mafia people off. The car got torched and as a result his 325i suffered burns on the right side. He sold it of for 10% the value, and got an E34 535i instead. He's had a few problems with the 535i. So for him, the reliability of the E30 was good, but E34 not so.
12-31-2005, 06:50 PM
#166
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Originally Posted by CarbonGray Earl
On the E30 vs. E36-E90: by far the last true 3 series with a link to the 2002ti. I could not agree with you on the reliability, cuz my dad had an 85 528e that had a ton of problems after 100k, but I felt the lost their way with the E36 (which I had new in 94). While I like the E36, I felt the Integra 4-dr that I had was more fun to drive (and just as quick). The E30 was a better no-nonsense handler while the E36 went towards the luxury end of the scale.
12-31-2005, 08:45 PM
#167
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Originally Posted by CarbonGray Earl
What do you drive, Ruiner?
12-31-2005, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ruiner058
One more thing spotch, BMW is made in Bolvaria IE: BMW = Bolvarian Motor Works, not Germany, so in fact, they are made by Bolvarians, but seeing as you dont know what hemisphere the country of Japan is in, thats probably way over your head. And yes, im aware that they are practically germans, but the allied power saw fit to make them their own little country.
LOL!!!!!!! Yeah, and acuras are made in jolpan.
01-01-2006, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by spotch
LOL!!!!!!! Yeah, and acuras are made in jolpan.
01-01-2006, 05:43 AM
#170
Originally Posted by aaronng
How can you define the reliability of a 325i by looking at the reliability of the 528e???
And some of the things that happened to the 528 are still happening to Bimmers of the recent past and present....as ruiner said, little things always happened....this happened to my dad's 528e, my own e36 325is, and my now my cousin's e46 325i. In my mind it all adds up and goes back to that 528 experience. Its entirely valid to extrapolate a E30's 325's reliability, materials quality over the long haul, and overall ownership experience from that 528, a car that taught me alot about what a good car is made of.
01-01-2006, 06:02 AM
#171
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Originally Posted by ruiner058
At least i know what hemisphere the COUNTRY OF JAPAN IS IN. and id check and see where your acura was assembled... Mazda is one of the few left that make most of the vehicle in japan then ship it.
But yeah, USDM Honda Accords don't come from Japan, and our Honda Accord V6 in Australia come from Thailand!
01-01-2006, 06:03 AM
#172
Originally Posted by ruiner058
Ive got a 525i... runs nice, but tons of small things go wrong. Nothing yet w/ the engine, just turn signals going out, door squeaks, stuff like that...
Small electronics issues have occurred once in awhile the scariest of which left me and my sister stuck inside my e36 325is. We stopped, I turned off the car, and the power gave out, rendering the power door locks, power windows, and power roof useless. Turning the ignition key did nothing either. If I remember correctly, this BMW was the first to have the door locks go down flush with window sill, so I couldn't just pull up the lock manually. Pulling the door handle would only move the lock up about 1/4 of an inch, which I could not get a grip on to pull it up. I forgot how we solved it, but after about 5 minutes of trying, the car mysteriously got power, and we were able to leave.
01-01-2006, 06:05 AM
#173
Driver/Detailer
Originally Posted by CarbonGray Earl
It may seem like a simple generalization, however, its based on that car and nearly 20 years of experience with BMW in my family. My Dad's 528e was the closest primary and personal example of a BMW in the 80's for me. How could I not tie my seminal BMW experience to my perceptions on a 325 of the same era?
And some of the things that happened to the 528 are still happening to Bimmers of the recent past and present....as ruiner said, little things always happened....this happened to my dad's 528e, my own e36 325is, and my now my cousin's e46 325i. In my mind it all adds up and goes back to that 528 experience. Its entirely valid to extrapolate a E30's 325's reliability, materials quality over the long haul, and overall ownership experience from that 528, a car that taught me alot about what a good car is made of.
And some of the things that happened to the 528 are still happening to Bimmers of the recent past and present....as ruiner said, little things always happened....this happened to my dad's 528e, my own e36 325is, and my now my cousin's e46 325i. In my mind it all adds up and goes back to that 528 experience. Its entirely valid to extrapolate a E30's 325's reliability, materials quality over the long haul, and overall ownership experience from that 528, a car that taught me alot about what a good car is made of.
And yes, I agree that the total reliance on electronics is scary. Back in south east asia where they used the 5 series as limo transports for an international conference (I think it was a WTO one), the ECUs of the BMWs malfunctioned after being parked in the sun under the 95 degree heat.
01-01-2006, 07:14 PM
#174
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Originally Posted by HoRRo
This thread was started to compare i-VTEC and BMW's Double VANOS/Valvetronic.
P.S. SLR McLaren $450,000USD compared with $89,000USD NSX? I'll take 5 NSX's please.
P.S. SLR McLaren $450,000USD compared with $89,000USD NSX? I'll take 5 NSX's please.
Lot has happened since I left this thread around page 2. For the record, I chose the 06 TSX over a 325i.
01-01-2006, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CarbonGray Earl
Completely agree with almost every statement here. The only part I have perhaps a more expanded opinion is that Acura/Honda MO when benchmarking BMW. Honda's MO seems to be to create a car that surpasses the benchmark about 2-3 years after it comes out, but make the most compelling value cross-section. It seems to hit the nail on the head everytime by hitting key points the competition covers and bringing it in at a reasonable cost. We see this with the family sedan, the luxury market, and now the newest vehicle, the Ridgeline.
BMW may be the standard bearer in this entry lux market, no matter how much hp Infiniti/MB puts in there cars, no matter how Honda comes close to matching their handling with a FWD vehicle. However, we all know honda will come up with a compelling arguement against spending thousands more for a comparable bimmer in a couple of years. The TSX did it to the E46 2.5 liter.
BMW may be the standard bearer in this entry lux market, no matter how much hp Infiniti/MB puts in there cars, no matter how Honda comes close to matching their handling with a FWD vehicle. However, we all know honda will come up with a compelling arguement against spending thousands more for a comparable bimmer in a couple of years. The TSX did it to the E46 2.5 liter.
01-01-2006, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ruiner058
At least i know what hemisphere the COUNTRY OF JAPAN IS IN. and id check and see where your acura was assembled... Mazda is one of the few left that make most of the vehicle in japan then ship it.
I'm still waiting for you to make a post that doesn't have some kind of misinformation, fabrication or bit of faulty logic that you create to try to make a point to yourself. Still waiting.
01-01-2006, 07:57 PM
#177
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Originally Posted by ruiner058
And for the guy who wanted to rev the bmw on a test drive 1- you werent going to buy the car 2- reving a non broken in engine is BAD 3- you arent the only one who wants to do it so if they let everyone do it their cars are going to be coming in w/ more engine problems then they already have and while he didnt have the right to be mean about it, by no means should he let you rev the shit out of the car. And you wont need the window down to hear the engine, you hit the gas, and the whole car comes to life.
01-01-2006, 09:56 PM
#178
Driver/Detailer
I've got a german video of the production line of an E46. After the car is put together, it gets dyno'd to check that the peak power meets or exceeds specifications. So the engine does come revved hard from the factory.
01-01-2006, 10:37 PM
#179
Originally Posted by fedlawman
In my opinion, the E30 is still the best of the 3-series. It's lightweight, powerful, and it's cost no object over-engineering means even to this day, they're bulletproof reliable. And did you know the E30 325i has about the same power:weight as the E90 325i? My 1988 325i makes about 175 peak HP and TQ at the crank, and weighs only 2700 lbs.
i love the look of the e30 m3's. it's just the boxiness and compact styling of it that i think has an appeal to it. i'm more into older cars i guess...
i'm not well educated on the e30 engine, but, given the cars size, weight, and engine output, it has a very nice balance...
just some nice pics i found online...
01-02-2006, 02:19 AM
#180
^^those pics are hot....Im glad I can like both Honda/Acura and BMW/Mini. I don't like having to chose. 
01-18-2006, 12:17 AM
#181
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First:I would like to thank ruiner for a multiple laughs.
Second:The E36 will always hold that special place in my heart when it comes to M3's. Hands down my favorite M3 so far.
back to the topic at hand, i would have to say that Valvetronic is superior to iVTEC. The fact that the rocker arms are on a pivot and allow for practically infinitely variable valve timing is excellent. BTW, VTEC on the NSX is far better than VTEC that is on Civics and Integras. The S2000 has probably the closest iteration of NSX VTEC for under $50,000US.
Second:The E36 will always hold that special place in my heart when it comes to M3's. Hands down my favorite M3 so far.
back to the topic at hand, i would have to say that Valvetronic is superior to iVTEC. The fact that the rocker arms are on a pivot and allow for practically infinitely variable valve timing is excellent. BTW, VTEC on the NSX is far better than VTEC that is on Civics and Integras. The S2000 has probably the closest iteration of NSX VTEC for under $50,000US.
01-18-2006, 01:06 AM
#182
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Originally Posted by InTransit
back to the topic at hand, i would have to say that Valvetronic is superior to iVTEC. The fact that the rocker arms are on a pivot and allow for practically infinitely variable valve timing is excellent. BTW, VTEC on the NSX is far better than VTEC that is on Civics and Integras. The S2000 has probably the closest iteration of NSX VTEC for under $50,000US.
The NSX's VTEC is just DOHC VTEC with 2 profiles for both the intake and exhaust cams. It is no different to the DOHC VTEC system on the DC2R Integra Type R, the EK9 Civic Type R and the S2000.
The only saving grace is that there are 12 VTEC mechanisms in the NSX! 2 for each cylinder, one for intake and one for exhaust. No other Honda/Acura V6 has a VTEC mechanism on both the intake and exhaust.
In terms of the actual VTEC mechanism, obviously the i-VTEC system in the RSX-S and TSX is superior to the DOHC VTEC setup in the NSX, Integra and Civic Type Rs and S2000.
01-19-2006, 05:13 PM
#183
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well from what I've experienced with NSX, S2000 and B series VTEC. NSX and S2000's have a smoother VTEC cross over than B series motors. the VTEC sound for the C and F series engines comes in not as a hrmmmmmmPAAAAAANG, but as a growl that continues to grow as the engines hurtle toward their redline 8,2000 and 9,000 respectively. VTEC operates by oil running through the rocker arms and locking the rocker arms together so that only the middle lobe is in contact with the rocker arms. In the C and F series engines the transition of the rocker arms isn't as fast resulting in a smoother power curve on the dyno. If you've experienced both B series VTEC and C or F series VTEC you should know what I'm talking about just from listening to engine notes. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me. I'm not saying that "The NSX's VTEC is just DOHC VTEC with 2 profiles for both the intake and exhaust cams. It is no different to the DOHC VTEC system on the DC2R Integra Type R, the EK9 Civic Type R and the S2000.
The only saving grace is that there are 12 VTEC mechanisms in the NSX! 2 for each cylinder, one for intake and one for exhaust. No other Honda/Acura V6 has a VTEC mechanism on both the intake and exhaust." is wrong, hardly, but the way that the VTEC solenoids work in the C and F series engines was a little more advanced than in the B series engines.
The only saving grace is that there are 12 VTEC mechanisms in the NSX! 2 for each cylinder, one for intake and one for exhaust. No other Honda/Acura V6 has a VTEC mechanism on both the intake and exhaust." is wrong, hardly, but the way that the VTEC solenoids work in the C and F series engines was a little more advanced than in the B series engines.
01-19-2006, 08:06 PM
#184
Driver/Detailer
The point where the cam changes is either lowcam or highcam. There is no in between. So there is no slow VTEC engagement. When you look at the VTEC mechanism, it is a metal cylinder locking pin that locks the rocker arm to the middle arm and forces it to follow the highcam profile. That locking pin is rigid, and is either in or out of the middle rocker.
The reason why the VTEC point is less obvious in the NSX and S2000 is because of ECU fuel mapping, ignition mapping and differences in aggressiveness of the 2 cam profiles.
The reason why the VTEC point is less obvious in the NSX and S2000 is because of ECU fuel mapping, ignition mapping and differences in aggressiveness of the 2 cam profiles.
01-23-2006, 08:38 PM
#185
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I understand what you mean but here http://www.leecao.com/honda/vtec/3stagevtec.html. This is an example of what I was talking about. You're probably right about nothing special besides ignition timing and ECU mapping contributing to the smoother crossover but I'm sure you'll find it interesting nontheless.
01-23-2006, 09:21 PM
#186
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My Prelude had an abrupt crossover. With a VTEC controller, I could lower the engagement point, making the transition completely smooth. (Not to mention adding power & torque in that "notch" you normally see in the dynos of Honda/Acuras that have the abrupt crossover.) I'm tempted to do the same with the TSX, except I want to keep it fairly pristine, at least during the warantee period. :-)
01-24-2006, 01:19 AM
#187
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Originally Posted by InTransit
I understand what you mean but here http://www.leecao.com/honda/vtec/3stagevtec.html. This is an example of what I was talking about. You're probably right about nothing special besides ignition timing and ECU mapping contributing to the smoother crossover but I'm sure you'll find it interesting nontheless.
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