um...no..you can compare cars with different price range...such comparison can judge rather the "extra cash" is worth it or not..

What do you mean by acura best engines and bmws worst engines? The engine in the 325 is the same E90 engine as the 330 EXCEPT the 330 engines are set up to have a larger displacement and HP. This does not mean the 325 engine does not behave as good as the 330's. It is FAIR to compare 325 and TSX because one is 2.5L and the other is 2.4L AND they have similar size.

 

But the companies use different principals when designing their engines, honda has been known for small fast cylinders for ages now. Earlier in this thread some guy listed the top piston speeds, and honda had 6 places on the list... cuz they are smaller. You also have to realize why the 325 exists... so that people can pretend they have a bmw... i mean, it will out handle the tsx like none other, but bmw is not going to give you one of their amazing, and if you've ever driven one, they are just fun as hell engines, for that price.

 

I do not see why that would make it an unfair comparison between the 325 and TSX..and keep in mind its an INLINE 4 engine in the TSX..

As for Honda cannot come close to BMW performance wise....NSX-R has been compared to the M3 CSL for quite a bit of times on shows like Best Motoring..and those professional drivers commented at 300 mph the NSX-R is even more stable than a Lambo (forgot if it was a Gallado or what). And i saw an old video a while back (some old old old top gear), it showed that the NSX type R was able to keep behind a Ferrari F50 (not passing it or go bumper to bumper). which shows a lot about Honda...

I am not saying Honda is better than BMW performance wise..RWD + BMW's I6 = some of the most enjoyable cars in the world! BMWs make sportier cars than Honda because both companies have different goal! (Hence the result of not introducing a brand new model of the NSX)

 

Car and Driver:
2006 Best Sports Sedan (they further quantify it as "near-luxury"): Acura TSX
2006 Best LUXURY Sports Sedan: BMW 3 Series

If the brains at C&D separate them there must be a reason. Mainly a price point reason is my guess.

 

I am going to say what a lot of other people I suspect are thinking. STOP POSTING ruiner058. The reason you think this thread is ridiculous and the reason everyone else thinks it's ridiculous are different and you can't seem to grasp the concept that everyone is trying to convey to you in a polite manner. Stop posting about stuff that is unrelated to the reason this thread was started and getting ppl off topic because of your rather casuistical logic IMO,...and probably many, if not everyone elses opinion as well. If you want to talk about BMW and why you think BMW is better than Honda/Acura,..........thats great,......GO TO CAR TALK AND START YOUR OWN THREAD. I am sure your cough logical cough comparisons will go over quite well in Car Talk.

I am SURE everyone will agree that comparing a civic to a 325 makes a lot of sense,..........

Please lock this thread.

 

Fiva here thinks its fine to compare them...

 

And yet again.

 

Not only me..about 90% of the posters in this thread..
I do not see why you cannot compare them...you know if price is not a factor..the BMW 325 is a better car than the TSX because of Inline 6 (more torque) and RWD (can wigg its tail) in MY opinion..but with extra costs on packages for the 325, those factors quickly becomes "unworthy" for some.
And let me remind you again...you compare cars with similar size, engine HP, engine displacement, features.

Do you have any other points that the 325 should not be compared to the TSX other than the so called "top engine" vs "worst engine" and the sportiness of BMW over Honda's?

 

I was not the first one to compare the tsx to the 3 series. I was not the first one to compare the tsx to the M3. In both cases, it is my personal belief, that bmw is on a different range then acura entirely. The cars are marketed to different consumers. But when you start comparing, as people did, a 325 to a tsx, there are many things wrong with all of those conclusions, just as you so vividly pointed out, you cant compare the 3 to a civic. I agree, it doesnt make any sense either way. And i was never trying to say make bmw win in all ways possible, i said earlier that they have reliability problems and in no way are you getting the best econ. buy. And they take premium gas which is a pain. And on the topic that this post was started, these companies have totally different engine design concepts. Vtech is inovative and extremely economic while getting excellent performance ratings and has kept honda far beyond the reach of anyone in terms of reliability for years. But to bash bmw cuz a tsx can beat a 3 series is unfair, just like bashing honda cuz a 325 would kill a civic. And for Fiva, my point on the displacement goes back to engine design, if you want to look at just displacement, go ahead, compare the 325 to the tsx, but the conclusions you get from it are all off cuz thats not how bmw designs there engines.

 

Actually, the top level car for Honda/Acura would be the NSX-R. If you are talking about passenger vehicles, then it would be the RL.

And BTW, what do you mean a VTEC engine is different from a BMW's engine? If you were a BMW fanboy, then you'd be a lousy one at best, as BMW has VANOS, which is so similar to VTEC! And that is why this thread was started. To compare VANOS to VTEC.

 

According to Fiva, 90% of people on this thread disagree w/ you. I on the other hand, ironically, happen to agree with you. And for the guy talking about the nsx, thats not the same type of car... while the 3 series and tsx come under the same body catagories. And while im aware bmw uses the vanos technology which is simillar to the vtech, they also remain rooted to the old school way of upping the displacement while honda makes excellent small cylinder engines that are listed prev. on this post.

 

:shakehead

Now you guys are arguing on whether or not there should/can be an argument.
But I guess it's a free country until a Mod decides otherwise....
Go at it my friends.

 

And im not a bmw fanboy, i think mercedes is out performing and out classing bmw... in everything except handling... but handling aside, i love mercedes mix of superior luxury and performance. In any case, i still think its unreasonable for the "90%" of the people to be comparing the tsx with the 325... and as far as engines go, i believe bmw is doing an interesting job mixing the two concepts togehter, but remain far behind especially when mercedes threw in the SLR which is an amazing vehicle.

 

As sarcastic as you were being, its interesting to note the patterns of car makers, and while there are exceptions, asian engines are reliable and economic and lately becoming increasingly powerful, american engines suck (unless you go old school like corvette stingrays =) ), and german/italian engines while endlessly flawed - supply godly amounts of power... so i think geography has a say in how cars are designed... at least in general... buy hey, i could be fabricating that all up too... and not to be a smart ass or anything, japan is in the northern hemisphere... at least last i checked, but then again, my arguments make no sense.

- And one suggestion, "You shouldn't post when you know absolutely nothing about the subject at hand, at least doa little research"

 

One more thing spotch, BMW is made in Bolvaria IE: BMW = Bolvarian Motor Works, not Germany, so in fact, they are made by Bolvarians, but seeing as you dont know what hemisphere the country of Japan is in, thats probably way over your head. And yes, im aware that they are practically germans, but the allied power saw fit to make them their own little country.

 

^^^It's Bavarian Motor Works. Bavaria is a region in the south of GERMANY. I don't know where you're getting your info, dude.

 

so... which timing technology is betta??? and fine to make eveyone happy and back on the topic, in terms of the RL vs. the 5 series. which, in ur opinion, type of tech is betta and will we ever see a i-vtec in a V6? o ya and which is more economical to make?


p.s. BACK TO THE QUESTION PPL

 

I stand corrected on Bavaria... i miss typed it and my apologies to all... and its a German state, but those are all seperate now. For simplicity, they are called germany and on maps labeled so but the reality is that they remain seperate after WWII as the allies wanted to keep germany from ever rising up again. For w/e reason Bavaria tends to want to be seperate from germany (dont ask me why) but its a similar situation w/ Barcelona and Spain... all political crap.

 

In terms of timing the acura engine is better, it will take displace less and give you more performance. Acura is also by far more economical.

 

Dont start comparing the RL to the 5 series now, they are different cars, that much has been established. In terms of just the ENGINES, its the same situation as w/ the tsx in which case until you get into the bigger BMW engines, the acuras are going to give you better performance and as always, are more reliable (although i must say, ive yet to have a problem w/ my 525's engine, just a whole bunch of other little things). And one more thing that came out wrong (its late and im tired), the German states arent seperate, they are controlled by a central govt, but its not the same as in the US... the allies wrote out the govt in such a manner as to really disguise everything... and the people of Bavaria, im good friends w/ a family from there... are incredibly insistent that Bavaria is Bavaria, once again, dont ask me why.

 

Which engine of the 5 series? We have 525i, 530i, 540i. Also, you get a detuned 3.0L I6 for the 525i, while we get an actual 2.5L I6 (same as for our E90 325i, which is an actual 2.5L engine)!

But in my opinion, K24A2 is better than E46 2.5L I6. But the E90 2.5L I6 is better than the K24A2. I can make that comparison because E90 325i and 525i in Australia have an actual 2.5L engine instead of a 3.0L.

And, you won't see i-VTEC on a V6 until Honda starts replacing the SOHC heads with DOHC instead. Otherwise, VTC won't work (if you advance the intake cam, the exhaust cam advances as well, as they are the same camshaft!)

 

nvm... i read wrong... no v 6 yet

 

It's regular VTEC, and if I am right, it is only on the intake side. In comparison, the TSX and RSX-S have VTEC on both the intake and exhaust cams, as well as VTC on the intake only.

 

I think, in terms of comparing the techniques, the i vtech is going to give you the most performance while being the most economical as possible... while the bmw engines (the bigger ones) are "better", they are far from econ. and thats the great thing about i vtech, just two different styles really. As a consumer, you have to pick the one that you want and can afford. The premium gas on the bmws blows too, especailly in cali. where gas prices suck...

 

The 2.5L I6 in the AUDM BMW 325i makes slightly more power than the i-vtec K24A3, while at the same time making more torque and keeping fuel consumption at similar numbers. I guess sometimes 2.5L is better than 3.0L.

 

as far as the "m3" or "m5" of acura, we ever gonna see those... tuned out 500 hp v6 engines.. can it be done easily w/ vtec? and o ya and that brings up the ques, anyone who has played with honda's 3.2, what r the limits in terms of hp is physically possible, and the limits of the rsx/tsx engine's? pics? dyno? buttdyno ?

 

It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish and how you're going about doing it... A chevy stingray for example uses raw power to obtain specs that are... still amazing today... but ours gets 8 mpg premium, so nobody would buy it today... anyways, my point is displacement is only one aspect... an suv w/ a 7.0 L engine is going to get smoked by a tsx... the best comparison is w/ motorcycles, i dont think there is a car in the world that could out acclerate a superbike... you have to look at the weight of the cars, the torque like you mentioned and everything else including piston speed. It could also be that the 3.0 fairs better in the 60 to 100 range and has a higher top speed then the 2.5. There are lots of variables and no company is really right or wrong.

 

My budies got a 04 V 6 accord which has i believe a 7 second 0 to 60... but in terms of top speed and acceleration after 60, the engine I felt when i drove it had a harder time keeping pace w/ the car unlike my 525 which has an inline 6. While both had pleasant pick ups to 0 to 60 (the bmw roars a better), the honda def. started falling behind after that. But thats just the regular vtech.

 

Is that the auto?

The manual Accord V6 clocks in at 5.9s 0-60mph (2006) according to C&D.

And the reason people compare the TSX and the 325i is because when they are shopping, the prices are similar (the TSX is cheaper with different features), and the engine displacement is similar. Like it or not, people shop based on price, so if BMW can't offer a good engine (you're the one who said it was their worst engine) at the same price that Honda can, then they have a problem. Either that, or they put it in to bait customers to the 330i so they can cash in more. I don't really understand why the 325i is SO much more expensive when it has the same features. If you added in all the features the TSX has, the 325i should be just a little more due to weird things like heated fluid nozzles and auto wipers. But why is it like $10k more?

Anyway, I severly digress. I had meant to say that VTEC (that's the correct spelling) is meant to improve fuel economy AND boost performance. The Double VANOS system does almost the same thing, just in a different manner. Honda's is arguably a less complex system, good enough to put in a $15000 Civic. BMW doesn't even OFFER 4-cylinder engines here. And even if they did, do you think they'd be willing to put the good stuff in them? Probably not, cause BMW is only out to gouge customers as badly as they can. They only get away with it because people love the BMW image and the extra 1 or 2/10 handling. Any car company can build a really good car given crazy MSRP prices. The real challenge is building a great car at a low cost, something Honda and Mazda excel at, while Mercedes-Benz and BMW flounder. The C230 is a pretty lame car for the price IMO, and the lame B-class they released here sucks even more.

 

..how about in the department of maxxin out?? whats the runable highest hp for each engine? hows the curve on the dyno, or evne the butt dyno? anyone...? now this test, if anyone can come up with numbers, will show who the reallll winner is.


p.s. this might not be a practical ques...but its the truth...

 

Power comes from RPM and torque. To increase your torque, you can improve breathing through intake (throttle body, intake valve diameter, intake tubing), reducing of internal resistance (polishing, lightened pistons, rods and balanced crankshaft) and the exhaust system to match the intake. To alter the peak RPM of your torque and to prevent your torque from dropping of at high RPM, you need a good intake (throttle body, intake valve diameter, intake tubing) and proper cam lobes.

Both Acura's and BMW's engine use the above to a varying extent. Acura does the intake valve sizing, throttle body sizing in the 2006 TSX, while BMW has polished internals, good throttle body size, and balanced rods, pistons and crankshaft.

All i-VTEC and VANOS lets you do is to use 2 cam profiles so you can have maintain high RPM torque by using proper cam lobes while keeping good low RPM drivability, while intake timing can be altered with i-VTEC and both intake and exhaust timing altered by VANOS.

In the end, the final power of an NA engine of fixed displacement comes from the degree of refinement the engine receives. All i-VTEC and VANOS does is to improve drivability and reduce fuel consumption.

 

First, i think the handling is way different, bmw handles exceptionally well. Those cars just stick in turns so much so that they are completely out manuvering even the extremely high priced mercedes. I think why the 325 costs more is that it is rated in a different full luxury class. And its really just for people who want to pretend to have a bmw, same with the c class. For years now the c class has been a joke and only in the last few years have they been given even decent engines. If you look back 5 to 6 years ago... all you see for c class is underpowered. In my opinion, thats just cuz bmw and mercedes just build those cars so that people, like i said, can pretend to have a bmw. But even then, the 325 if youve ever been in one handles like a dream and the engine still roars, something you wont ever get out of a honda engine... some people try w/ big exhausts, but in a bmw, the engine roars, not the back of the car. Its actually an interesting mix, when normally driving, everything is quite, but when you punch it, ooo man, not quite anymore. My other budy has a mazda 3 06 GT sedan.... and while like you said, fuel efficient and fast, it still doesnt roar like the bmw... But as far as the 325 over tsx, you get more out of tsx, and thats why econ. buyers go w/ the tsx... but for people where they just really want a bmw, they get a 325. Do i think its worth it, no... but im not them... id pay the extra cash at that point and get a 330... now those cars are worth the extra buck cuz the larger engine really starts making a difference. I wish i had gotten a 530 but as i bought it used the 525 was in the best cond. and lowest miles. I picked it over a fully loaded new accord just because the accord pulled to the right whenever you hit the brakes, the sales guy said that was normal even though i could do a lange change when by hitting the brake. My friends accord is an auto by the way... i think the manual came out after 04.... anyways, i painted his brake calipers the other day and the right one was way worn down so i dunno if its a pattern or what. The bmw just handled better, seemed faster, gave you more of a "fun" ride, and out here in southern cali. where there are plenty of fun roads into the canyons by the beach, handling is important. Not to say honda's handle bad, but i found the accord just to be what it is, an average economy car (you see thousands of em) and they are excellent at that. However i wanted a car that was fun to drive. And the bmw 525, i dunno about the tsx and 325, has a top speed of 150... not bad for an inline 6

 

The E46 2.5L engine is a Double Vanos design. It makes 184 peak HP at 6000 RPM and 175 peak TQ at 3500 RPM.

It is not inferior to the K24A2, it just has different power characteristics. Overall, I think the TSX is pretty comparable to the E46, depending on your priorities in a sub $30K sport sedan.

The E90 325i, on the other hand, is a completely different matter. By designing a completely new engine for the E90, and bumping displacement up to 3.0L, BMW has created the new benchmark for power and weight. The 325i's 3.0L engine makes 215 peak HP at 6250 RPM, and 185 peak TQ at 2750 RPM, which is signifiantly more power than the K24A2. More importantly, this power is delivered in a flatter, broader manner thanks to the addition of Valvetronic to the Double Vanos design.

This quote from Car and Driver Magazine is an excellent description:

"Valvetronic is a complex mechanism that varies how far and for how long the engine's intake valves open by essentially varying the rocker-arm ratio in the valvetrain. Combined with Double VANOS, which is what BMW calls the mechanism that varies the timing of the intake and exhaust camshafts, the 3.0-liter six-cylinder engine has extensive control over the operation of its valves.

This provides huge benefits because an engine's valve opening and closing determines the rpm range in which the engine breathes best. With fixed-valve opening and timing, an engine's intake and exhaust flow are optimized over a fairly narrow range of rpm. That is why an engine such as the one in Honda's screaming S2000 doesn't develop much low-rpm torque.

It all adds up to more power, more torque, a broader power band, improved fuel economy, and lighter weight. It's hard to improve an engine in more ways than those."

Here are the E90 325i specs from Car and Driver:

"The added power and more aggressive gearing give straight-line performance a swift kick to 6.1 seconds from 0 to 60 mph and 14.7 seconds at 94 mph through the quarter-mile. This 325i blows away the last-generation car and is also quicker than the previous 330i model."

And you can buy one for less than $30,000!

 

That was my point though, mercedes and bmw 325 and c class cars had been a relative joke... finally acura is pushing them to put more respectable engines into their cars... still would pay the extra cash for a 330 though. And i mean joke in the time frame of like 10 years, cuz before that the 3 was okay (and back then they did have a 4 cylinder)... almost all cars were a joke in the 80s cuz of the fuel concerns...

 

"Fuel concerns" have only accelerated, not gone away - America and other countries simply seem to be ignoring those concerns. I guess it's kind of like a New Year's party... drink and drink and drink like there's no tomorrow and then, suddenly, it's tomorrow and there's nothing left to drink and DAMN do you feel bad.

 

BMW's are more reliable then the other Germans, simply based on part longevity on the older E36, but they are not put together like Honda or Toyota managed assemblies and engineering. BMW spends there time engineering on the drawing board and not for actual factory assembly. There are, for instance, less parts attached to the bumper assemblies on Japanese makes because of ease or repair and more reliability/ease in the final assembly. I work with alot of GM engineers who tell me the same things. As far as lexus sludge, I may be the only one which sides with Toyota on this one, but I've got the 2.2L camry in the affected period and has no sludge, based on valve clearance service and my own oil changes, I change the oil at 4K intervals. Finally, I can count about a dozen ECU problems on 99 and 00 2.5L powerplants just from my view when I worked as a used car salesman (I sold about 2 of this bodystyle per week). One of the approximate dozen was a BMW mechanic who bought the car from me (~15 years at Beemer - Maranello BMW in Woodbridge, ON, Canada and a couple years at Honda). He got rid of the car not to long after because he was hoping he would be 'lucky' and have less problems. Anyways....I think the BMW's are great cars, but don't tell me they are put together like the TL, TSX, RL or Accord's. One thing BMW and Honda deserves credit for (and also GM in the most recent years) is the efficiency they have built into their engines (not the M3 though) which develop good power.

 

I've always held porsche to be the most reliable german car, no? In terms of everything overall... to many LITTLE things go wrong with bmws... not really their engines, just little things especially ELECTRICAL things. IE turn signals going out cuz of arcing, blower fuses being moody, door squeaking after a while... little things.

 

325 and c class cars had been a relative joke... finally acura is pushing them to put more respectable engines into their cars

Acura is not pushing BMW to do anything. BMW is the standard bearer for performance sedans and they are constantly improving the cars in order to stay on top. Other marques merely target the standard, and eventually catch it or beat it. Of course by then, BMW raises the standard again.

still would pay the extra cash for a 330 though.

I think the 330i is a good value only if you plan on getting options such as Leather interior, Xenon headlights, Logic 7 audio, etc. If you don't care about frivolous features and want the most car for the money, a $29,000 325i is the only way to go.

And i mean joke in the time frame of like 10 years, cuz before that the 3 was okay (and back then they did have a 4 cylinder)... almost all cars were a joke in the 80s

The E36 was a terrific car. It had great performance, and was a huge upgrade in comfort and refinement compared to the E30 it replaced. Reliability was a problem for the E36 however - it's widely known that BMW used computers to design the car to the inch to cut corners and save money wherever possible. That cost-cutting proved to have been a little too deep. The E46 remedied most of the problems the E36 had, at the expense of additional weight and a slight loss of the inimitable 3-series "feel."

In my opinion, the E30 is still the best of the 3-series. It's lightweight, powerful, and it's cost no object over-engineering means even to this day, they're bulletproof reliable. And did you know the E30 325i has about the same power:weight as the E90 325i? My 1988 325i makes about 175 peak HP and TQ at the crank, and weighs only 2700 lbs.



Technology has made cars safer and more comfortable, but not necessarily better performaing.

 

Actualy, even the lowest 1-series (116i) has double- VANOS. And the 130i has the super high-tech VALVETRONIC. They put it in the 4-bangers first! Before the 7 series even got it.

You guys really need to find some reding material on the VALVETRONIC system. It's way beyond iVTEC.

 

BMW and mercedes are both performance markers, and for tht reason the low end cars have existed for people who want to pretend they have ownership to that prestige... but especially in the case of the c class... underpowered was the only way to define that class of cars. Acura has now began to enter cars into the low end bmw range w/ more options which has lead bmw to bring their 325 back up above acura's highest end tsx. And as for the "frivolous features"... many of them really alter the car, in my opinion the xenon lights are a major pt. to how a bmw looks (which is totally awesome, those cars just look mean).