dom

Until recently. The F430 acheives 112 HP/per L. But likely not very reliable.

sauceman

I need to update the damn thread. Meh, point remains the same.

spotch

If BMWs high performance cars were the only ones that were woefully unreliable that argument might hold water, but just about every car in their range is fraught with reliability problems including the e46 325, whichi I drove and was not impressed with.

And if BMW is so busy besting acura in every category they may want to take a look at the SCCA Speed World Challenge touring cars, because acura absolutely raped BMW this year. Seems like they must be doing something right to consistantly beat the bimmers.

sauceman

Moot. The BMWs were crippled by the SCCA in order to make for a competition between BMW, Acura, Mazda and others

spotch

Alright, what about auto-x? The s2k has dominated the z series roadsters (z3 and z4) for less $$$. Not to mention how well the almost 10 year old integra type R still consistantly does well against the 330's despite being discontinued for years. Not to mention bmw hasn't made a car in the ITRs price range for god knows how long (mid 20s, the 3 series has started in the high 20s/low 30s for YEARS and those are the bottom feeder 3 series cars).


Just saying, you can't make the statement that BMW is god of all cars and can outperform anything honda can put together. From what I can tell honda/acura has had a pretty good run against bmw in SCCA racing.

sauceman

I'm not arguing against you spotch, just telling you that the Speed Touring Car Challenge argument doesn't hold the road well because of the way SCCA cripples some cars and let other cars benefit from deep modifications for the sake of them all being competitive.

A Mazda Protege would never hold it's own on the street against a 325Ci like it does in the race series.

ruiner058

Ok, well a couple of you mentioned price difference when you came at me and you cant do that cuz im not talking about price. If you want an econimically sound car, acuras are going to win. And i agree, bmw has been slacking in performance lately, but they still have their M series and while plagued with problems, are amazing. As far as the E55 goes, you started comparing it with the Nsx... a 4 door sedan w/ a car like that? Doesnt sound fair to me... you would have to go w/ a car llike the sl 65 or even better, try the SLR Mercedes Mclaren... the Nsx gets blown out because you get what you pay for. And to the guy that wanted the E55 to massage his back, ya, mercedes makes rear seats that massage you... and it has a 0 to 60 in under 5 seconds... just have to work on an alarm but i doubt you'll see the coffee, germans dont believe you should be drinking and driving at the same time... they build those cars so that when you're driving, you're driving. Even the cheap bmws come w/ phone systems that simply need activation. And im comparing these cars cuz thats why this ridiculous post was started... so when you tell me you cant compare these cars, i already know.

ruiner058

One other thing, you cant say acuras are base model cars, cuz they arent, you want to compare a 325 to an acura, it would have to be to a honda civic and thats just laughable. So when you get to a base model acrua, you should be in the 330 to M3 range already... in perspective at least. And those "screamers" are on piston speed alone, they dont account for displacement or the types of vehicles... not to say that it isnt impressive and honda has and does make some super high end engines, but its not taking everything into view... and at the end of the day you decide bmw and acura are even in speed, the 3 is going to out handle the tsx probably cuz of the huge tires they put on the thing. And when you rev a bmw, it doesnt sound like you're in a electric golf cart, those engines come to life... especially when you push the the gas down past that click pt. where the car drops down a second gear... simply amazing.

GIBSON6594

I know what your saying, but i'd take a downshit in a Honda 6MT over a BMW tranny downshift any day

JayRoam

Actually 3series is the same class as TSX just a little moreso than the 5 series is comparable to the TL. 3 series does have many more variations leading all the way up to the M3, so obviously the M3 wouldn't be a valid comparison due to specs, price, etc...

HoRRo

This thread was started to compare i-VTEC and BMW's Double VANOS/Valvetronic.

P.S. SLR McLaren $450,000USD compared with $89,000USD NSX? I'll take 5 NSX's please.

sauceman

West6MT

Didnt pick up on the sarcasm did you,.........guess the was not clear enough. Horro already explained why the post was was started ^^.

ruiner058

well what it (this thread) turned into was bmw vs acura which is ridiculous. And if im buying for performance, the slr is going to kill the Nsx... which is why its so much more. Anyways, for all you people arguing saying your acura is better, all you need to do is try out one of those m3's, click the gas in, and it wont be an argument anymore, at least not in terms of performance. You want to bring in reliability and economics, keep in mind BMW's priority is to keep their cars under the price of mercedes, but thats about it... so its not going to be an econ. car. But the experience you get is going to surpass the tsx. And for the guy who wanted to rev the bmw on a test drive 1- you werent going to buy the car 2- reving a non broken in engine is BAD 3- you arent the only one who wants to do it so if they let everyone do it their cars are going to be coming in w/ more engine problems then they already have and while he didnt have the right to be mean about it, by no means should he let you rev the shit out of the car. And you wont need the window down to hear the engine, you hit the gas, and the whole car comes to life.

GIBSON6594

fedlawman

Why can't we all accept that BMW and Acura have a different business model that targets a different demographic?

These cars may fall under the same general category, but one will never be proven "better" than the other - just different.

Oh, and my . BMW 's are not unreliable, so stop using a limited model run M3 as an example for the entire marque. That same engine, when paired with the M Coupe, had no problems. It 's no different than someone citing tranny failures in the 2003 TL and claiming all Acura's are all crap.

I think a discussion on the pros and cons of each car is great, but come on, do we really need all the urban myths and hyperbole?

ruiner058

Thats what I said, it is unreasonable to compare these cars. However, as an owner of a 525... and a couple of E classes before this, im going to have to disagree on the reliability... for w/e reason, the 525's turn signal is constantly arcing along w/ a blower that works some days and doesnt work others... o ya, and a few other electrical problems (w/ the seats and windows)... the reliability isnt that great especially when the miles start to add up... but if you can fix em (there is a certain amount of enjoyment had when fixing a car) or pay to get em fixed, it doesnt really matter.

FiVa

Um....how do you compare cars...usually people compare cars with similar HP (or displacement hence 2.5L vs 2.0L) so i don't see why someone would compare a base model acura to either 330 to M3 range..

spotch

LOL!!!! Yeah there's a *TON* of joy from having to repair your car because there's constantly something wrong with it. That's why EVERYONE HATES buying new cars, because they hate the idea of having something that isn't breaking down and requiring you to crawl around under it at midnight hoping you get it fixed in time for work tomorrow.

lol

Trance_Tsx

man those are some kick ass videos

ruiner058

In the case of the 525, all the repairs needed have been cheap and quick. Its interesting to see how bmw puts everything together and the car is easy enough to matinence yourself if you know what you're doing. I would def. have to say that the few things that go wrong w/ it def dont out way the sheer enjoyment it is to drive the car. I find it relaxing to work on cars every once and awhile (i wouldnt expect an acura owner to really understand this concept), plus all the problems w/ it have never been severe enough to keep me from driving the vehicle so its no big deal. And those big tires give it that handling you wont find in a factory TL. As far as comparing the engine to displacement, that doesnt really work because of the Vtech technology. Honda engines displace less, but as the guy pointed out earlier in this thread, just look at the piston speeds. So you have a smaller cylinder that goes faster. Therefore you can compare a 330 to a TSX because in terms of Honda/Acura, Acura is already on the top. The TSX is an upgraded civic. There is no bottom maker for bmw, so the 325 is comprable to the civic. In both cases performance wise the bmw is better, but price wise there is a vast difference, so you get what you pay for. And for the other guy who wants to buy 5 Nsxs, that sounds like a great idea, that way, in a race w/ the slr, it'll make it interesting cuz your 5 cars can all race for second instead of getting smoked every single time. But of course, you dont need an slr for that, thats overkill, plenty of other cheaper cars will do that. And the M3 has about the same acceleration specs as the nsx so i dont know why you guys even started comparing it with the TSX, but w/e.

GIBSON6594

Fixed

swirlie

Ok, let's use your same logic to make a different comparison.
Let's take Ducati motorcycles vs Honda motorcycles. "Bottom end" motorcycle for Ducati can be either the Monster 620 or the Multistrada 620. Take your pick, it doesn't matter. "Bottom end" for Honda is either the NPS50 or the CHF50. All of these are positioned as the lowest/value model in their respective line-ups. However, the Ducatis are 612cc 63hp bikes, while the Hondas are 49cc scooters. How is that a fair comparison? It isn't. Why? Because these are in completely DIFFERENT CLASSES. Same as your insistence on comparing the Civic vs 325, or the TSX vs M3. Different classes. The Civic is NOT "comparable" to the 325. Being in the same product line-up position doesn't matter when one entire line-up is positioned HIGHER than the other. You have to make a horiztonal comparison, between two products that are aimed at the same market.

Ellas9

You said the BMW's are easy to fix????? Wow, how many have you owned? I worked at a shop where we have fixed thousands of these BMW's you speak of.....we are SCARED to put those on the hoist! We don't know what else will screw up once we take some parts off. Easy....not in my experience. Perhaps its easy to replace the ECU? Yea, your right, it is..... big money.....I've seen a number of these go on the E43's. I think BMW's are great (the drivers don't even know 1/4 of the engineering that has gone into the car) but when you said there easy fixes and cheap to repair I would have to respectfully disagree. Just thought I would add my 2 sense.

fedlawman

BMW's are no more or less reliable than any other new car you're likely to buy. Saying BMW's are unreliable because you know someone's aunt's sister-in-law who had a 325i, and the subframe tore off while going through a McDonald's drive thru, doesn't make the entire marque unreliable.

We can all cite the hyperbole about Honda tranny's, Lexus sludge, Audi coils, etc. until the cows come home and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to 99% of owners out there who own these cars and never experience any problems (they're not the one's posting online about problems anyways).

By the way, I'm familiar with most of the BMW models built over the years, and I've never heard of an E43. Care to shed some light on this mysterious BMW that eats ECU's?

cusetsx

Again this thread has continued to deviate into Acura-vs-BMW-lalapalooza.

spotch

You shouldn't post when you know absolutely nothing about the subject at hand, at least doa little research.


Not really... a 325 (the base model bimmer) is more than twice as expensive as the 15000 dollar civic EX, yet it's not twice as quick. You compare cars based on price, not based on hondas cheapest car vs bmw's cheapest car. Your arguments make no sense and are clearly fabricated just to make bmw the winner in whatever way possible. So illogical it's painful to read.

"Well the bmw is made by germans, and since germany is in the northern hemisphere and japan is in the southern hemisphere, bmw is automatically 'above' any japanese brand! North = above! Hondas even lose at geography!"

lol

cusetsx

Actually the base model BMW is the 116i. It's not available in the US though.

Figures given reflect European specification
Engine 116i 118i
Cylinders: 4-in-line 4 in-line
Valves: 16 16
Capacity: 1596 1,995 cc
Maximum Power: 85/115/6000 95kW/129bhp/5,750rpm
Maximum Torque: 150/4300 180Nm/3,250rpm
Exterior Dimensions 116i 118i
Length: 4227 4,227 mm
Width: 1751 1,751 mm
Height: 1430 1,430 mm
Wheelbase: 2660 2,660 mm
Front Track: 1484 1,484 mm
Rear Track: 1497 1,497 mm
Boot Capacity: 330 - 1150 330 - 1,150 l
Fuel Tank Capacity: 50 50 l
Turning Circle: 10.7 10.7 m
Interior Dimensions 116i 118i
Shoulder Room Front: 1374 1,374 mm
Shoulder Room Rear: 1342 1,342 mm
Elbow Room Front: 1407 1,407 mm
Elbow room Rear: 1414 1,414 mm
Head Room Front: 963 963 mm
Head Room Rear: 967 967 mm
Weights 116i 118i
Kerb Weight: 1205 1,230 (1,260) kg
Payload: 500 500 kg
Roof Load Limit: 75 75 kg
Towing Capacity With Brake
at 12% / 8% Slope: 1200 1,200 kg
Towing Capacity Unbraked: 635 650 kg
Performance 116i 118i
Drag Co-Efficient: 0.30 0.31
Acceleration 0-100km/h: 10.8 9.4
Acceleration 0-1000m: - -
Maximum Speed: 200 208
Fuel Consumption 116i 118i
City: 10.5 10.1
Highway: 5.9 5.7
Combined: 7.5 7.3
Figures given reflect European specification. Figures in brackets for 6 speed automatic transmission

Engine 120i 130i
Cylinders: 4 in-line 6 in-line
Valves: 16 24
Capacity: 1,995 cc 2,996 cc
Maximum Power: 110kW/150bhp/6,200rpm 195 kW / 265 bhp / 6,600 rpm
Maximum Torque: 200 Nm / 3,600 rpm 315 Nm / 2,750 rpm
Exterior Dimensions 120i 130i
Length: 4,227 mm 4,227 mm
Width: 1,751 mm 1,751 mm
Height: 1,430 mm 1,430 mm
Wheelbase: 2,660 mm 2,660 mm
Front Track: 1,484 mm 1,484 mm
Rear Track: 1,497 mm 1,497 mm
Boot Capacity: 330 - 1,150 l 330 - 1,150 l
Fuel Tank Capacity: 50 l 53 l
Turning Circle: 10.7 m 10.7 m
Interior Dimensions 120i 130i
Shoulder Room Front: 1,374 mm 1,374 mm
Shoulder Room Rear: 1,342 mm 1,342 mm
Elbow Room Front: 1,407 mm 1,407 mm
Elbow room Rear: 1,414 mm 1,414 mm
Head Room Front: 963 mm 963 mm
Head Room Rear: 967 mm 967 mm
Weights 120i 130i
Kerb Weight: 1,260 (1,275) kg 1,375 kg
Payload: 500 kg 500 kg
Roof Load Limit: 75 kg 75 kg
Towing Capacity With Brake
at 12% / 8% Slope: 1,200 kg 1,200 kg
Towing Capacity Unbraked: 665 kg 680 kg
Performance 120i 130i
Drag Co-Efficient: 0.31 Cd 0.32 Cd
Acceleration 0-100km/h: 8.7 (9.2) seconds 6.1 seconds
Acceleration 0-1000m: N/A
Maximum Speed: 217 (213) km/h 250 km/h
Fuel Consumption 120i 130i
City: 10.7 (11.0) l/100km 13.7 l/100km
Highway: 5.6 (6.2) l/100km 6.6 l/100km
Combined: 7.4 (7.9) l/100km 9.2 l/100km
Figures given reflect European specification. Figures in brackets for 6 speed automatic transmission


---
The 130i doesn't look like a bad little RWD car.
Sorry for the crappy copy/paste of tables.

FiVa

LOL! This is
You sound like you know nothing about shopping!
Why would you compare a 1.8L I4 civic to a 2.5L I6 325? The civic is an economic car while the 325 is an entry level luxury sport sedan. You will NEVER see any car magazine comparing a Civic to a BMW.

spotch

No kidding, that guy is rediculous.

cusetsx

Then there's the Mercedes base model the A150 (again not in the US) with it's 0-60 in 12.6 seconds..
Don't get me started.

ruiner058

I dont know how many times i have to say its pointless to compare these cars, but for you, ill do it one more time, you cant compare these cars. If you want to try to compare bmw engines to honda/acura, thats the way it would run, both the civic and the 325 are base cars, but in two completely different worlds. Just like the M3 vs the tsx, the tsx is the top level car for honda, and the m3 is the top for bmw, and yet again, they are in two different worlds. So, for anyone else that wants to bring this up, i dont believe its even sensible to try to compare them, but people on this thread started too, and its ridiculous. Especially when they started bashing a limited production M3 and generalizing it.

And the a class is a piece of shit euro mini. Thats why its not even sold in the US. The new CLS 500s are pretty nice though.

ruiner058

I agree with you, in my book, an M3 is in a class way over acuras head, but people earlier in this thread seemed more then willing to argue that, citing numerous M3 failures and specs. And by the way, i own both a Ducati 900 and Paul Smart 1000 (LE) - got it last week and both are amazing bikes.

cusetsx

So you are saying the 3 series is the base model in the US. Since the 1 series is the base model most other places.

ruiner058

Ya, in the US a 325 is the base model for BMW... and the guy that was arguing was comparing his tsx to a 325 which isnt fair to do in my opinion because where he has one fo the top engines honda puts in vehicles in that class, that would be the absolute worst (US) engine in those cars and thats not a fair comparison. He then went on about the M3s which is absurd. And he said he has 9/10th the handling... no way, bmw handling is amazing and ive been in both cars. BMW sticks to curves, its sick. I live in southern cali. so i go down the beach alot... roads "not suitable for all vehicles" so handling is important here.

FiVa

You CAN compare these cars! (not M3 vs TSX though...don't know who compared that) BUT you DO NOT compare two cars because one is the top level car for one brand and the other is a top level car for another brand! For example lets compare Mazda and Acura/Honda..people DO NOT compare the Mazda 6 to the Acura RL (Both cars are the highest level sedan for both brands), but people compare the TSX with the 6 because they have similar displacement, size , type, and a "close enough" price range.

How the hell is it that compaing the TSX with a 325 unfair? No one compares cars based on top engines from two brands...

cusetsx

And again the original point of this thread was to only compare the engines not the cars themselves. I guess that's kind of an impossible topic considering most people can't see the forest for the trees anyways.

ruiner058

But BMW is on a whole different price range, they dont give about their prices, they arent trying to make their cars affordable. So in an overall view, bmw is well above acura, and thats why its pointless to even compare the cars. I mean, hooray for you, your acuras best engine beats bmws worst. Congrats. Bmws are better cars. And honda/acura should hardly be called two brands. My friends integras engine says honda right on the top....

cusetsx

"better cars" will always be subjective..... and will cause this thread AGAIN to go on and on about a topic which was not it's original subject.

ruiner058

Besides reliability, bmws will give you more comfort and performance, far more performance... and when it gets into that price range, performance is the selling point. I believe the Mclaren didnt even have air conditioning... anyways, performance wise, no one should even try arguing acuras can come near bmw. And even while in my opinion, mercedes is dominating in performance and comfort over bmw, the handling bmw gives you is bested by only porsche, ferrari, and maserati.