A summary of some stuff I found on the net...

What a camshaft does is relatively simple. It spins in time with the rest of the engine, and its lobes, which are connected more or less directly to the valves according to the way the engine has been designed, first push open those valves and then release them, allowing them to close again by means of springs.

HONDA - Honda's VTEC system gives each cam more lobes than it has valves. The "spare" lobes on a VTEC cam have much hotter profiles than the ones which operate the valves normally. But they do not themselves come into play until the engine has reached a given speed. i-VTEC introduces another piece of cam trickery by changing the position of the cam relative to the rest of the engine. For example, a cam might be arranged so that one of its lobes was pushing an inlet valve down as far as it would go while the piston was right at the bottom of its travel. The phase could then be changed in either of two directions. The cam position might be altered so that it pushed the valve right down shortly before the piston had reached its lowest point. This would mean that the cam had been "advanced" from the position we started with. If the cam were "retarded" it would mean that the valve had not yet been fully opened until the piston had started coming back up the cylinder from its lowest point.

BMW - Compared with conventional twin-cam engines with finger followers, Valvetronic employs an additional eccentric shaft, an electric motor and several intermediate rocker arms, which in turn activates the opening and closing of valves. If the rocker arms push deeper, the intake valves will have a higher lift, and vice-versa. Thus, Valvetronic has the ability to get deep, long ventilation (large valve lift) and flat, short ventilation (short valve lift), depending on the demands placed on the engine.

The VANOS system is based on an adjustment mechanism that can modify the position of the intake camshaft versus the crankshaft. Double-VANOS adds an adjustment of the intake and outlet camshafts.

 

[QUOTE=spotch]http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3engines.htm

Every time I hear people bragging about the e46 m3's engine I love to wonder if they realize how badly those engines were originally designed. (i.e. the "Supersession of Camshaft Bearings", "Supersession of Crankshaft Parts", "Supersession of Oil Pump", "Supersession of Camshaft Drag Lever", "Supersession of Oil Pressure Switch" links)
QUOTE]

No question a risk that you take when buying a low production engine that produces over 100HP per litre. I'm well aware of the issues but the real story is that BMW did make good and have corrected the problem (thanks to Jason for his documentation efforts). It should also be noted that many of these cars are driven at there limt for long periods of time. It wasn't so much the design of the engine as it was a faulty part. I'd be curious to know the failure rate of the engine in the S2000 (another 100HP/L engine)

And...I'm not bragging I'm simply making the point that we're talking about totally different cars and comparing them isn't fair. However, I must admit I was slightly motivated by the original poster "bragging" about his TSX over BMW but I guess that's okay here.

 

Never mind. Searched, learned it is fruitless without K-Pro, wasted valuable forum bytes, I hate myself.

 

I justify my test driving because if I like a car then I will encourage others to buy it and pass on the good word. Good free advertising.

 

[QUOTE=Cgove1]

The s2000 motor has been incredibly reliable since it was released late in 99. There are *plenty* of 5+ year old s2k engines with 100,000 miles or more on them that see 8500-9000rpm quite often that haven't had to go in for a single major engine part to be replaced. It's not really a failure rate issue.... the vast majority of the rare engine failure occurrences are a result of a mis-shift/over-rev situation caused by driver error. It's just different philosophies, like you said. Two entirely different cars. Honda would never release a product as poorly designed as the early e46 m3 was, something that needed so many vital parts to be replaced. You can say it was a matter of driving the car really hard but if after all these years bmw can't get away with building another ///m iteration, brag to the world about hollow camshafts and revving it to the moon and then when it breaks have people say "oh well, it's driven really hard so stuff like that happens!". If bmw cared as much about selling people a reliable product as they do about building a car with the perfect mix of luxury and performance they truly would have the best cars on the planet. Now they just have the best cars on the planet if you don't mind taking a huge gamble with reliability and are prepared to pay insane parts and labor fees often.


BTW if I owned an M3 I would probably be inclined to brag on it nonstop, or at least drop it's name every once in a while. I really love those cars, and when i'm rich enough to afford an M3 and an acura daily driver I plan on getting one. Till then I'll probably have to stick to the one that I can rely on to get me to work every day without having to worry about the local bimmer dealership grabbing my credit card by the balls

 

I'm not sure that's exactly right. Cam timing can be advanced or retarded.
You're referring to the timing of the valve opening & closing relative to piston position, not necessarily to the exhaust valve. In other words, you could get the same amount of overlap by advancing the intake and retarding the exhaust as you could by only advancing the intake by twice as much, but those wouldn't produce the same result.

So, VTC on both cams can do things that VTC on one can't.

 

Hey, I've done it. I'd never bother a sales group that is swamped with customers on a busy day, but on a day when they're all sitting around I don't mind making them work a little to give me an opportunity to do my own comparo. And dealerships know (at least the mgmt does) that a certain number of those comparo testers end up becoming buyers despite themselves.

If my wife can wander the mall trying on $400 shoes just for fun, I can can try on $40,000 sports cars. If the salesman treats me like I'm not worthy, I make a mental note never to return if I am in the market for his brand of car. If I'm wasting your office-gossip time trying out your product, even just for the hell of it, don't bother getting up.

 

Not to "pick nits" but the original S2000 engine wasn't a "mere" 100hp/liter, but rather 120hp/liter and the most ever in a normally aspirated production engine.

Peter, thanks for your insight on the i-VTEC system. I'm always learning more!

 

If you haven't looked at this site, it has a technical explanation Vtec:

http://asia.vtec.net/article/ivtec/

It is circa 2000, so the article is a bit dated, but I think it does perhaps the best job of explaining what Vtec is and what i-Vtec adds to the engine...

 

You should then become a car reviewer. Best of both worlds!

Seriously though, I could understand if a salesperson felt he was getting his time wasted that he'd be cranky and pissed. His time is his income, never forget that.

 

I'm well aware. I was saying "over" 100. I in no way meant to minimize the Honda engine. In fact I think the Honda engine is the best 4 cyl. production engine made with the BMW S54 being the best 6 cyl.

 

No Prelude love?

 

Is this line making anyone else's head explode?

 

No Prelude love from me!

 

Most definitely. But how can you safely wrap you intellect around such a moronic league?

 

As if this thread wasn't hard enough, and now someone brings up the Indy Racing League......



Oh wait, I guess that was me....

 

 

Sometimes the truth hurts. Don't get your panties in a bunch. There's just a lot of truth to the old saying "you get what you pay for". Most of you will understand when you grow up.

 

OK, now that you got that little boost of confidence from yourself, go back and read what you wrote.

You said that no Honda or Acura will ever be in the same league as any BMW except for the cheapest BWM's. So by cheapest lets take the 325i and 325Ci. I don't know about you but i'd definatily take a 325i over a NSX, RL, TL, or S2000

And you don't always get what you pay for, sometimes you get what you overpay for.

And please don't come here stressing your age as a source of knowledge because there are plenty of people here half your age that most likely know tens times more than you about some things.

But your right, sometimes the truth does hurt...

 

I think you forgot to turn your font color to red when you typed that. Just a suggestion.

Do you know how many Audi/BMW owners have gone to Honda/Acura with their money? I'm one of them, and I don't feel like I'm going down a notch, since I'm paying ~$5k less and getting much, much more for my money. And therefore, I'm getting what I pay for.

Audi/BMWs are great... just be prepared to pay (for service, parts, etc.) when "you get what you pay for."

-rpc

P.S.: Way to alienate about half the board members Mr. 46, you old fuddy-duddy. Why don't you go play dominoes and leave us young'ns to our cray-zee "Internet" and "message boards."

 

Oh my god, Ageism creeps in! Can we please go back to talking about the Indy Racing League

 

I wish I could review cars. That would be awesome. I try not to bother the sales people too much, but if they are free I will definitely ask for a drive. I don't tell them that I'm not buying. I usually say that I am considering trading my TSX....which I will do in another 7 years. I went to the Acura dealer yesterday to get my oil changed and they had some 2006 TSX's. They had a manual in the showroom, but when I asked to drive a manual it turned out that the one in the showroom was the only MT. I told the Acura guy that I was just looking to compare and didn't plan on trading. In contrast to the BMW guy, the Acura guy offered to move cars around and actually bring the MT TSX out of the showroom for me. I didn't want him to go to that much effort so I told him I would come back another time. I love Acura.

 

Do you really think your above comment is necessary?

 

There's also a lot of truth to the saying "Some people have more money than sense." I.E. spending anywhere from 30+ to 80+ grand (I hear the 7 series is an even worse reliability nightmare than the 3 series for some years...) for a car that, while performing well, is a piece of shit. Some people value driving something that's not an expensive piece of crap and some don't.


Speaking of getting what you pay for I assume you've seen the posts on various bmw forums of e46 owners whose rear subframe tore at the suspension mounting points right? Kinda crummy to have a 35,000$ car for 3~ or so years only to find out that the frame is actually tearing. And not from racing or extreme abuse, just from regular driving. It was months ago but I seem to remember bmw europe releasing a memo about it being a problem for tens of thousands of cars but bmw usa hasn't addressed it formally yet (at least they didn't when I was shopping bimmers months ago). Those BMWs, you sure get what you pay for!... And then in a couple years you get to take it back and have the subframe frame welded together properly.

 

The Valvetronic is more sophisticated than iVTEC. It can control the valves to such an extent that the engine no longer needs a throttle body. And it's steeples, where iVTEC switches between different lobes. Kind of like the difference between an on/off switch and a dimmer.

http://www.bmwusa.com/bmwexperience/...ndex.htm?id=19

 

BTW, the TSX can alter intake timing up to 25 degrees, not 50. 50 is for the RSX-S.

And BMW engines of the 325i and above are post and polished from the factory. So they produce more torque per litre than the equivalent Acura/Honda engine (except for those that are hand port and polished like the S2000 and DC2R B18C).

 

Geez, I hope so when you pay 11 grand more for a comparably equipped 330i (I have an '06 TL). Additionally my TL will keep right up with (actually slightly out-accelerate) the new 255hp 330i according to the latest comparo test. Admittedly, I've only got 9/10ths the handling but I go to the snow alot and I'll take the FWD and the superior reliability and the 11 grand to put down on some more real estate...

 

Yeah but think of all the BMW service techs that you're depriving of real estate fun money with your purchase of the acura

 

that's what I needed to know! how can it make it so that it doesn't need a throttle body?(what does the throttle body do exactly?)

 

LOL, I'm in Australia. No TL for us. We would buy them as they look so similar to the TSX but with more power. BTW, over here the 6MT TSX + Leather + foglights and sunroof costs US$29,538, while the 6MT 330ci costs US$68,471. Yes, those who want BMW, Lexus and Mercedes get ripped off here.

So yes, for over twice the price of a TSX, those BMW 330ci engines better be hand tuned and ready to make coffee for me as soon as I am out of bed!

 

That's insane! Do they still sell? I would have trouble justifying the $40,000 here in the US, but $68,000!

 

They take what they can get. And surprisingly, there are many 3 series around. Not much competition to them. Mercedes caters to the older class, while Lexus is trying its best to break into the 3-series market. There is no Infinity here, so Nissan sells Maxima/Cefiros as an alternative to the 3.0L V6 Camry!!!

I'll always laugh when my TSX/Accord Euro outruns an E46 325i manual or an E90 325i auto, knowing that I paid less than 1/2 price for a car with comparable comfort and power. Not many people here can or are willing to take advantage of RWD, when our speed limits are so tight.

 

Are you seriously comparing BMW to Acura? BMW makes better cars performance wise, that shouldnt even be a question. The fact that they arent as reliable comes w/ that. Look at the reliability reviews for all the high performance cars like mercedes, audi, porsche, ferrari, maserati... they all get bad reviews... but they will perfrom, make no mistake about that. Just because a ton stuff goes wrong on a Ferrari, doesnt make it a piece of crap. Thats just the way it goes w/ high tuned performance cars. If you dont have the money to buy one or are willing to compromise for reliability, buy an acura, but if you have the money... the top bmw is going to outpreform the top acura any day because in most cases you get what you pay for. Just punch it in and M3 or Mercedes Sl65 or a car like that, its going to make your acura feel weak cuz those cars are just in a different class that calls for performance over reliability. People who buy them tend not to care about reliability cuz they have the money to fix em no questions asked.

 

Yes, the 2.4L 4-cyl TSX accelerates faster than an E46 2.5L I6 325i. So yes, Acuras and Hondas are beating your BMW at their own game. E90 on the other hand is a different story. I like the technical side, but not the styling inside and out.

 

A Mercedes E55 does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, and thats the 4 door sedan... its not even worth looking up how much heavier it is... get into the sl65 which is under 4 seconds... you cant compare these cars...

 

one word....NSX..

http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=j...64s&search=NSX

NSX-R vs F360 vs Murcielago vs M3 CSL vs Gallardo vs 911 Turbo

Its quite amazing that the NSX-R can hang with those cars.....peformance rise, jsut don't discredit the japanese...just wait for the new Supra, Skyline, and NSX..

and i agree that BMW makes performance cars, but its not an excuse for having reliability issues..i don't think Mercedes, Audi, and BMW are anywhere near ferrari...yeah sure u can compare a M6 with a F430 (a really horrible comparison, but i think those are the two most comparable cars, V10 vs V8 (Scaglietti has the V12), but i will take the F430 any day over a M6..

 

A quick check over at the JD Power & Associates website shows that Porsche has done fairly well on its Vehicle Dependability Studies the last 6 years (far back as I could find), which encompass a total of 9 years of data. In fact two years it is behind only Lexus/Toyota, which has been tops for its 11th consecutive year in 2005. I would say Porsche makes some pretty good high performance cars that are fairly reliable if they are behind only Toyota in dependability studies more than once between 2000 and 2005. Rankings went, 2nd, 9th, 6th, 4th, 10th, 2nd for porsche,...out of 30+ nameplates each year. In 2005 porsche was 2nd out of 38, with 10 more probelms per 100 cars vs Lexus (149 to 139). In comparison, BMW had 76 more problems per 100 (vs porsche) vehicles and ranked 11th (225 per 100 vehicles).........still above industry avg (237 per 100). These type of things need to be taken with a grain of salt,....like a lot of things in life,.........but calling Porsche unreliable for example is silly,... not to name names.

 

Why are you even bringing up such an example,.............who is comparing cars like that????? I dont see anyone comparing a 35k TSX to a 117K E55 (Canadian dollars,....whatever they are in the US),.....only TSX and 3 series. Where are ppl comparing a TSX (or any acura) to something like an M5?????????

BTW, for the price difference that E55 brings with it, it better do a 0-60 time of under 5 seconds, wake me up in the morning by honking its horn at the appropriate time, make me coffee and have it waiting in a nice mug for me in the car, massage my sore back, and give me a reach around on the way home from work after a long day.

Curb weight E55 1810 kg (3990 lbs)

 

E55 and SL65 aren't that far apart 0-60 wise. If I remember correctly C&D got a time of 4.2 for the E55 and I don't imagine that the SL65 can be that far under 4. Different styles of course, but same raw power.

 

Gotta love those BMW vs Acura flamewars.

Anyway, I think we need to bring in some perspective with this following comment:

With this, I think it's time to bring back an oldie: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13223

Note how Honda has 6 of the world's top 10 screamers while BMW has only one. All of these engines from Honda have proven reliablility, even when running full charge beyond redline for extended periods of time. The same cannot be said from the M3's engine. No Audi and no Mercedes, two Porsches in the top 25, but no Ferrari. They may well have exotic engine architectures, but they don't have such a great specific power output, and they are certainly not reliable, plus they cost a lot more to maintain than the lowly Honda engines.

As for chassis reliablity, it should be easier to build a reliable, better achieved chassis, but it seems that such is not the case with European builders.

I would just try to be extremely cautious when saying that one builder is white and the other is black.