larchmont

Still think they have good reliability, Nigo? And Motown is maybe BMW's biggest fan on here! And if you don't want to take Mo's word for it (or in case Mo says that's not what he meant, which is possible ), check some stats and ratings.

The reason I thought you misread our posts or didn't believe us was, you asked a direct and specific question about why anybody would prefer the TSX over a BMW, we answered it directly and specifically, with specific reference to the cost issue exactly as you had posed it. Then you said that you thought no one would make such a choice if cost were no issue -- even though that's what we had just gotten done answering! So we suggested maybe you should take a closer look at what we'd just said. And, then you said you found it hard to believe that anybody would feel that way.

So, what does that mean other than that you misread it or didn't believe us? (It's OK, you don't have to tell us.)

MikeL

It makes sense to me. The 330i is such a superior car that I would put up with its niggling deficiencies such as minor reliability issues, small interior space, and bad image. It steers, accelerates, turns, and stops like a dream, why wouldn't I?

The 325i didn't inspire me, and I honestly don't think it's worth it over the TSX. Even if they were the same price I'd still choose TSX because I think it's a better package for everyday use.

Actually what you said at the end about the feeling overpowering everything else is exactly why I would take a 330i over a TSX but not a 325i. When I bought my 325i I didn't even test drive a 330i because my bank account didn't allow for it. But when I finally did drive one I realised the dramatic difference. It's poetry in motion, to steal a phrase.

TSXautoXer

I would take a 325 or 330 anytime provided I have more money and free time.
A lot of people mentioned the snob appeal of BMW. To me, that's irrelevant. I despise anybody who bought a good/high performance car for status symbol (used to give finger to an old hag who drove a Ferrari 348GTS but doing 40KM/H everyday on the busiest road. That is SO wrong!). I just like to drive/race. If racing can get me enough income, I'll quit my job anytime. The Bimmers are more fun to drive, and if driven right, it's faster too. As for RWD, the car was design to turn fast laps at Nurburgring, so it's a neccesity rather than just to make people's life difficult in snow.
Anyways, it's just an opinion from a hardcore driver who can't afford a Bimmer now, thinks Acura makes a pretty darn good car and wouldn't mind learning FWD driving.

moda_way

Because this post was specifically directed at me and because I was in the same position as nigo, I feel my end result kinda tells a story... I currently own a TSX.

I think when you sit back and try to balance the scales on price and quality between the 325 and the TSX, you find one common factor. You're always having to drop the price of the BMW and increase the aesthetic value of the TSX; meaning, nothing ever gets changed on the TSX, but we seem to constantly fight on how to lower the price of a BMW.

To everyone:
Someone made a great point about going and driving one. Seriously, go drive a 3 series (if you haven't)... it doesn't cost anything. For those that haven't, you've missed out on a hell of a comparison. The BMW is without a doubt, a driver's car. Their traction control is great for snow, but FWDs are king in the snow. If you want to see what braking is about, go test the BMW.

...I say it again... If you haven't put your butt in a 325i or 325Ci, you simply won't understand any comparison about handling.

Nigo, I still wouldn't trade my TSX for a 325Ci (the car I originally was going after) at any price. There are plenty of things I like and dislike about each car, but at the end of the day, I simply found that the TSX met all of my needs yet, so did the BMW. But what made BMW loose out on my purchase was that the Acura had all of my wants (those other options) without the a la carte feeling.

rzee

I've done that, 330i too. Except for 330's engine, I wasn't at all impressed. I am sure when the cars are driven to their limits you can tell plenty of difference, but the way that I drive (though I would like to be considered a normal driver, most of my friends seem to think that I drive like a mad man), I can't tell much of a difference.

moda_way

For me... the difference was in braking and long corner stability. However, I do agree, normal driving, the BMW exhibits nothing more than what the TSX has.

Traditionally, BMW offered a lot of feedback from the road. For some that is not a quality attribute in driving. For me, it was a necessity. I love feeling the road in the steering wheel, pedals, and seat. The TSX gave me just enough.

TSXY

Actually, being among the BMW "experts" every day on www.bimmerforums.com, I'd say that most will say the E36 was the last good 3 series, not the E30. Also, the newer E46's are finally getting better, it was the earlier E46's that were soft and strayed way away from the sporty path of the E36.
I got my E36 328is in 2000 and could have purchased a new E46 if I wanted, but I was 100% for the 3 year old E36 I bought becasue of this earlier E46 "softness" issue.

And guys, as much as I love my wife's TSX and it does feel like a solid "German" car that I'm use to when I drive it, it's still not up to par with a 3 series when you come down to it and aren't biased.
Granted though, the TSX is a "different" car in my mind and does what it does great, and I think when some things are compared to a 3 series it's better, especially the interior!

TSXY

I kind of disagree there. The inline 6, especially in the 330, has way more torque and useable power around town and in normal driving. After I am use to driving my 328, my wife's TSX seems like it needs way more power for around town driving, the useable kind of power that is the most noticable.

dnb

Leatherette was introduced by BMW to incite flame wars on BMW discussion groups. Seriously. "Leatherette vs. leather" (with "get leatherette, save a cow" as a sideshow) seems to be one of the most frequently recurring topics on BMW fora.

moda_way

Usable torque is a matter of driving style. Keep the TSX in the upper revs and you'll have very quick and usable power (the old S2000 arguement), whereas the BMW you just short shift it.

Also, the E36 was PLAGUED with engine problems, coolant problems, interior quality problems and tranny problems. That was such the worst Gen of 3 series in history. The E30 is the classic 3 series having the cast iron block and aluminum head. Absolutely bullet proof. I'm surprised the forum would ignore those facts.

rzee

TSXY, have you taken your TSX to the track yet?

TSXY

If it were "PLAGUED", then I should would be having problems after 7 years huh? Well, I don't!

Sorry, but that is just not true. The only across the board E36 problems were w/ the 93-95, where they would suddenly overheat because the thermostat housing would break and so would the water pump, an easy fix by replacing them with aluminum pieces, EVERYONE that knows anything about BMW's knows this and has addressed the issue. And even that is not a big deal to saying the E36 is plagued!!

TSXY

No, not yet, the track isn't back open until Sep 9

vitocorleone

"And guys, as much as I love my wife's TSX and it does feel like a solid "German" car that I'm use to when I drive it, it's still not up to par with a 3 series when you come down to it and aren't biased." I think it's great and valuable to those of us that don't own both cars that you post good comparisons, but it is just a touch arrogant to make this claim - you've driven BMW first and longer? Hard to claim that you aren't at least somewhat biased. We're all biased to some extent or another. "Up to par" is merely a matter of your definition, filtered through your bias of how the two compare, especially if you are making a blanket statement about every aspect of both cars. Not everyone will agree.

larchmont

Well........As someone who's biased toward TSX, I'd have to agree that on performance and handling, the TSX isn't quite the equal of BMW. Braking, clear advantage to BMW, although IMO the TSX is better than many people say.

Ride? It's not so clear -- it's different kinds of rides, you could pick it either way. Front seats? BMW, slight margin. Rear seats? TSX, by a mile. Reliability? Too early to know, but probably TSX by a mile. Love? Depends on how much you mind getting screwed. Bottom line: BMW has some ground to make up.

finalheaven

The way i see it the 325 and the TSX are very close. (some people will completely disagree or agree) Either ways however i am worried because the 3 series is getting an overhaul i think next year for 05. They are changing the engines...and autospies, or another car magazine (respected like car and driver) said that it will most likely have at least 260hp. The upgrade for 325i will be very substantial as well i assume. After that im just thinking what will be of the TSX?

vitocorleone

The TSX will be pretty much where it is - entry level sport luxury. The BMW is moving up and, except for the likely comparatively low reliability (and possibly space and/or interior ergonomics), will be better in most every regard. And Acura will again have cars that fall between BMW segments. Don't forget the 1 series is coming and the A3.... the RSX will be below those, the TSX below 3, and the TL below 5/6, and the RL below 7. When I say "below", I mean in price and overall performance, not bang-for-buck.

Iceman

I can see how you would feel that way, switching back and forth between a 6 and a 4. My wife drives a 6, and when she drives my TSX she upshifts at 1500 RPM. I can't convince her to wind the damned thing out!
I drive way too fast in my TSX. I don't feel that I am missing a thing.

Iceman

The 3 series will get a bigger engine, and also a bigger interior. About time! My guess is, it will seem like much more of a competitor to the new TL, both sizewise and pricewise.
The new entry-level BMW's (no I don't mean the Mini-Cooper) will get stomped by our TSX's.

finalheaven

Where does this info come from? I think i read that the interior will get bigger but the exterior will stay around the same. I doubt it'll be bigger then the TSX though. I think the 3series will still compete only with the TSX. Otherwise then it'll compete with the already redesigned 5series... which is weird?

larchmont

I doubt the new entry-level BMW's (1-series) will be seen as competing with the TSX. They will be completely different segments.

It seems a lot of people think that just because cars are priced similarly, it means they compete with each other. Obviously that's true to some extent, but very little, I think.

Don't believe it? OK -- How much does the Toyota Avalon compete with the TSX?

MotownTSX

Maintenance nightmare = Cost and scheduled service included in that judgement. Not just unwanted breakdowns...

MotownTSX

You got it!

BTW....I will be getting leatherette on my next BMW. No sense in paying $1450.....

MotownTSX

Werd. I got a '98. The E46 doesn't appeal to me. I like the "pouncing cat" look of the E36. Looks like that is gone forever....:'(

The E30 is the king. It was solid is all places. The E36, however, is the better auto when it's in top condition. But a lot of maintenance over the E30 and the electrical nightmare early on really didn't help....

Have you seen the new additions planned for the upcoming 3-Series? A TON of now electronic gadgets!!! They had better know what they're doing this time around......it could be a nightmare!!!

larchmont

Aha -- but ALSO "unwanted breakdowns." That's what I meant.

finalheaven

From what i read in the mercedes forums... peopel couldn't tell the difference between leatherette and leather even when they were side by side. Some of course did. That's how damn similar it was.

Iceman

I didn't SAY the exterior would get bigger. The 1 series is coming out, priced in the mid-20's, surely more than $26990 comparably equipped to the TSX. The 3-series gets a TL-sized engine and above-TL-sized price. Which car is the TSX's competitor then?

larchmont

Who says it has to be either?

Anyway, the main thing that will determine this is SIZE. It seems like such a simple thing, and as far as I know it has held true, yet people don't seem to accept it. (Not even Iceman!!!)

Which means it'll be the 3, regardless of price.

finalheaven

Yes, trust me the 3 series will still compete against the TSX. The exterior might get bigger but not a lot. The 1 series will compete against something else.

larchmont

Or nothing. If we had the EL here, it would compete against that.

lshenretty

Hmmmm. I've looked at BMWs a bunch of times - and owned a 528i until recently. Maybe I didn't give it a chance, but the leatherette never looked anything like leather to me. Could be just cuz I knew it wasn't, but the feeling was pretty strong.

lshenretty

I'm pretty late to this forum. I wasn't going to participate, but can't seem to keep out of it.

I got out of a 528i that I loved a couple months ago. I'd driven the 325 several times because they were used as loaners at the dealership. I loved the 325 as well. What I remember about the first time driving it was that I thought "Ahhhhhh. I LIKE this car! I could be very satisfied with it." I didn't think about it seriously because I loved the 5 series so much.

Then when I started looking, I looked at a bunch of cars that I won't go into here, but the 325 was high on the list. I wrote the TSX off at first, even though I was amazed by it when I drove it, because I just thought of myself as driving something "better" than a "4 banger."

Then the Car & Driver review (as well as my very positive impression of it) sent me back to look at the TSX again.

Here's the kicker. You want us to tell you what we would do in a vacuum, and I can't answer it. And I have my doubts about the others here. What I do know is that, as I was continuing to look at the TSX and other cars, the issue of value was just impossible to ignore. The way it presented itself to me was: "Jesus! I can get this wonderful car for THAT?!!"

And I don't even have one yet. But the reaction to the car here and elsewhere really seems to be extraordinary. So I'm more than comfortable with the decision I made to order one.

It's now been 8 weeks since I made the decision, and 7 since the order went in. I'm living in rental cars, the most recent of which is a 300m (which is a surprisingly good car, although it gets really lousy gas mileage). Every weekend, I think "I'm ready. I'll just go find a car I love." And every weekend, I decide I'm going to wait for the car I really want.

lshenretty

Oh, yeah. And one more thing. Larch is one of the smarter people on this board, and I think he's probably right about the reliability issue and the fact (I agree that it's likely a fact rather than conjecture) that Acura is more reliable than BMW.

But that had nothing to do with my decision. I lived with the 528. Its reliability was fine as far as I was concerned.

MotownTSX

The 1-Series has been put on hold by BMWNA. It will see release in Europe first. That is the latest word. Of course, they could always change their mind, and I hope they do because I think they are making a HUGE mistake not bringing the 1 to the U.S.

The base price of the 1 will be $20,000 U.S. It's competition are econobox racers (WRX, Neon, Civics, Celicas, etc.) to some people, and to others, it has no competition....an affordable, luxurious, hightech compact car with RWD.

finalheaven

If it looks good then it will be hard to beat.

Iceman

If true, that is a big surprise. BMW also owns Mini, and would be competing against itself.

chrisalberts

are most certainly very different and if you're used to leather you can tell leatherette at a glance (and certainly from touch). On new cars you can tell by the smell too.

The main reason I wouldn't consider leatherette (apart from hating things that pretend to be something else) is because down here in Texas leatherette will have you sweating like a pig. Leather at least allows some breathing. We had a Discovery loaner with leatherette recently (for about 8 weeks) and although to look at it, you could barely tell it wasn't leather, when your shirt was sticking to your back 5 mins into your trip you could tell. Some people say leather is as bad, but I am a sweaty bastard and I don't find it bad at all.

MB does a really sneaky thing by mixing leather and leatherette on the same seat as standard (in some models) - ends up about only 50% of the surface is leather, but it's close enough for most buyers.

I would resent paying the $1450 to BMW for the leather too - but I'd do it, as I hate the leatherette. Now if you could get cloth seats, like you can in Europe that would be different. Perfect seats (at no extra cost) are the alcantara/cloth sport seats in the 330i performance package.

C.

captainjack

With all this talk of the next-gen 3 Series, has anybody SEEN it?

As Homer would say "BOH-ring!"

Stlying has long been a big part of BMW's appeal. They're losing touch with it.

TSXY

Leather vs. Leatherette will be different from car brand to brand. My dad has leatherette in his Porshce Boxster S, and I can't tell the difference at all.
Also, the TSX has mixed leather/leatherette seats

MotownTSX

It looks really good to me.