The coversation was'nt so much discouraging as it was idiotic. But I call it discouraging as it shows how many people feel about Acura.

I'm in the lunch room here at work and a guy who knows I drive a TSX says" Hey Domenic have you seen any of the new TL's on the road yet?" I say ya, I've seen 3 or 4, and I really like them. He says he has'nt seen any and is'nt surprised because for "40K, I'd rather get a BMW" I pull a :shakehd: and then slowly explain to him that the TL is alot of car for 40K and that a similaraly equpped 3 series is 50K or more. As if he was'nt even listening to what I said he says "ya but I can get a Lexus for that money, the ES3300" I again slowly explain that although the ES330 is quite nice I think the TL is alot better, unless of course your Gilbo's mom. I try to explain that the ES is more luxury oriented and not nearly as sporty as the TL. To no avail, he still says the TL is "too much money"

I decide to end the conversation before things get physical and I end up

But this is the ignorance Acura faces. These are the people they have to convince. And I have to say, it won't be easy.

 

An idiot is an idiot is an idiot and no amount of explaining is ever going to convince an idiot. That being said, there are people who can not be convinced regardless of what is said. I think every car manufacturer suffers from this to a point.

For example, I won't buy a Lexus (ok so, I'm being the idiot here) because I think of it as a Toyota and not that great. Is it a good car? Probably, but no amount of facts are going to make me buy a Lexus.

BMWs... suffer from something else... everybody has one it seems these days which makes me want something different. What do you say to that? I guess that's a better situation to be in.

 

A guy at my work who drives a civic asked me if my car was "like a civic." I just basically said no. A few days later he mentioned how he couldnt tell the difference beetween my car and a civic. When I told him how much the car costs he jaw dropped. He couldnt believe how much it costs.

 

i know we have definitely addressed this issue in other threads, but believe me, it is frightening how much people don't know--only a very small amount of research can yield some understanding of why Acuras are a good value, and yet people don't do any research whatsoever.

Case in point, my co-worker (who is also female) always says "I want a mini-Cooper" whenever we pass one on the street. But it's only really because she drives an X5 and doesn't know about anything except for BMWs. But if I pointed out to her that the non-S Cooper has an underpowered engine that is actually a Chrysler-built engine, and that the Cooper is really heavy for its size, she'd kind of give me a blank stare.

 

I guess I really should'nt say the guy is an idiot and neither is the guy at your work fdl and neither are you DEVO

These are just people who don't know much about cars because they're not as interested in them as we are. DEVO, your an informed consumer who made a rational decesion based on the fact that you simply don't like Lexus and BMW's are too common. But you spent the time to think about and come to this decesion.

The guy at my work and fdl's work did'nt do that. They made a decesion based on 1 piece of information and did no research. I have a hard time understanding how people can comment on something they really know nothing about and act as if they're right. Like that "I'll get a BMW for 40K" comment.

Have fun with your 320i.

 

Yeah, I think this is part perception and part ignorance. The perception part comes from the fact that the most common Acuras on the road are (have been) integras - although a very good car, it doesn't help Acura's image as a 'luxury' brand. Therefore, the common 'joe' will tend to associate Acura with a type of car that isn't exactly exuding luxury - ie a Civic. While BMW (at least in NA), is commonly viewed as lux/sporty by the average consumer since it tends not to sell cars that could be equated with typical Civics, Corollas etc.

That's OK with me, the fewer TSX's on the road the better IMO. Gives the car a 'unique' value to it.

 

What does "the guy" drive?

Because I have the feeling that if you bought the 330i he'd be ragging you about wasting the extra $14,000 (US), if you bought a Humvee it would be the 8mpg, etc. etc. So I don't think this is about Acura vs. Lexus vs. BMW vs. Honda vs. Toyota. It's about people deliberately trying to be annoying.

In the Rest of The World, Honda is a fine nameplate even for the NSX. And since the company is doing things that IMO are positively brilliant (like building Accords in China) who cares?

BTW, domn, I think you said you admire the Ferrari Enzo. You might enjoy the December issue of Car magazine - the Engish one - as it features a road test of a red Enzo. In New York City. And it broke down.

 

Puhlease, one time my friend was discussing cars. She wants to get a Toyota Avalon because it's nice (at least she thinks so) so I suggested that if she would wing it, a Lexus ES300 is probably a better alternative. She states that she doesn't think highly of Lexus as she's "heard" (I don't know from where) that they're unreliable. I didn't even bother informing her that they're the same company. The general population just doesn't care enough...maybe it's because they have better things to worry about than cars...

 

He actually drives a 2000 Accord Sedan 4 Cylinder. So I figured he was Honda bias. He was'nt trying to be annoying as he's told me in the past how much he likes my TSX, he just has no clue about the TL.

Yes, I love the Enzo and Ferrari's in general, but I never said they were reliable

Imagine the embarrasement of the owner stuck on the side of the road with an Enzo.

 

I'm interested in what lux brands she thinks are reliable. She'll probably say BMW or MB...lol.

I came across a similar situation with reliability perceptions. A friend of mine was looking at a GTI and I mentioned that I'd go Honda/Acura first because they were more reliable. He was absolutely floored when I told him the VW/Audi aren't very reliable.

 

Oh man, I run into this all the time. Most people are under the perception that brands like MB and BMW are much more reliable.

 

I read that article and that owner's experience. It was interesting to see how a hand-built exotic could have a problem, especially the Enzo, which is the hallmark of the company. Then again, who knows, it could have been an isolated incident. The worst part was the 4 hour wait for the technicians to get there. I guess even a million dollars won't get you reliable service. The best part of the article was the quote from the owner:

"I told my wife before we married; I don't fool around, I don't smoke, and I rarely drink. But you have to understand that I might bring home a car out of nowhere without telling you."
... or something to that effect.

There was the other Enzo article on CAR about six months ago featuring Jason Kay of Jamiroquai (remember, virtual insanity). He's a car nutt and bought a black Enzo at the factory and describes the whole experience (champagne, leather-bound certificate, 'naming' of the car for identification at dealerships). It was pretty cool to see how you're treated when you drop that much money.

As for most car buyers who aren't enthusiasts, I believe they just don't care much about what they drive, so I just don't listen to them. I have buddies whom I argue with about VW vs Honda, Toyota vs Nissan and such, and it's enjoyable because everyone has their part somewhat covered. Once, a friend jumped in and commented "Well, my Cavalier is probably the best compact car on the road, with great handling and instant power". We just let it slide, cuz we knew he didn't have a clue... but he's still our buddy and all.

Junkster, who was kinda freaked out by the Enzo owner from New York (he wore a red Ferrari polo with red gloves, IIRC).

 

That is what I usually do. When these people say something like such and such car is very nice, I usually respond with "yeah, very nice" (even on a car that I absolutely hate), and end the discussion there.

 

Ahhhh, to be a Master of the Universe! I particularly liked the part about the rear clamshell not opening and the picture of it, finally opened, with the heat shield dangling down. They ARE gorgeous cars, but the idea of dealing with a Ferrari Enzo is outside my reality, and the idea of driving a Ferrari Enzo in NEW YORK CITY is light years away from the world I live in. (I take the train into The City, then the subway, and then walk.)

Car also carried a Jamie Kitman column about vans in which he mentioned his company bought a Mercedes Sprinter van, which is de-badged or re-badged and sold as a Freuhauf or Dodge in the US, because Joe-the-plumber would be unlikely to want to roll into his customer's driveway in a Mercedes. So the prestige-badge thing goes both ways in the US. Mostly I think people are too lazy to research what they do.

 

Exactly a guy at work just bought a 04 Cavalier 2 door and a few guys were raving about how great Cavaliers are

I can only listen and shed a tear at there stupidity.

And the other day I had to break horrible news to my brother -in-law whos the proud owner of a 2001 Neon. A newspaper add was advertising a 04 SX 2.0 (Neon) with power everything, AC, MT and alloys for $12,988. My poor brother in law paid 21 on the road for the exact same car. Needless to say he was'nt too happy, yet speechless at the same time. Good old american resale value.

 

I still think I would rather be the Enzo owner stuck on the side of the road. If you can afford an Enzo, you have "FU money" and having FU money can solve almost any problem.

 

If I could afford an Enzo, there's no f'ing way I would be waiting for 4hrs at the side of the road. I'd have my buttler wait there and drop off another car for me to use in the mean time!

 

The enzo shouldnt be driven on regular roads anyways. Its a car to take to the track on weekends.

 

I hear you. And no amount of logic, information, facts, or figures will ever convince somebody of the "I'll get a BMW before I spend 40K on something else" mentality.

 

The anti-Acura bias isn't just in the "common" customer, but in the "enthusiast" crowd as well - just hang out on the C&D boards for a taste... you'd think Acura ran over their significant other, backed up, and ran over that person a second time.

Here's the gist:

* Acura is unreliable because of crappy transmissions

* Acura handles like crap because it's FWD and can never compare to RWD

* Acura is boring looking, or even ugly

* Acura is slow

* Acura only makes mainstream cars, not luxury cars

* Acura is overpriced

* Acura is the same as Honda, so you might as well buy a Honda

 

Problem is, some of those "enthusiasts" aren't really enthusiasts. I don't consider myself an enthusiast, so while I do talk about RWD and FWD in Acura's lineup, I would never say one handles better than the other because I've no real world experience taking both to their limits. But there are those who are in the same boat but act like they've being doing it for years.

 

I have the same problem but mine hits a little closer to home. . . my brother is in the market for a new car and he happens to love mine. Since he has more money he is looking at the 40 to 50k range. I went with him to see the new BMW 5 series. It was an amazing car. After some convincing we went to the acura dealer. We checked out the TL and it was far superior when it came to EVERYTHING! my brother loved the car but I think he might end up getting the 5 series because he doesnt feel that Acura will be enough of a jaw dropper. . . here are a few comparisons. . .

http://autos.yahoo.com/compare/compa...ilar&type=make

 

It's funny that you brought this up... as I am getting ready to purchase my TSX, I called my insurance agent up yesterday to ask him to check for me what the new insurance rate would be. He had no idea what "Acura" was! LOL! Then I explained to him that it was the luxury division of Honda... so guess what happened next? He told his partner to look up the rates for me. However, his partner could not find the car, because he was looking for a Honda Acura!!! ROTFLOL!

My sister drives a Lexus and she asked me why I wouldn't consider a Lexus. My answer to her was, "I want something sportier"!

It doesn't matter what some people say. The facts are the facts - Acura is the third luxury brand with the highest resale value, after BMW and Lexus. So it must be doing something right

 

I know! The BMW IDRIVE is the biggest joke and their biggest sell pitch!

I told the sales guy at BMW I have those features he was like what do you drive, and I told him and he was like I dont think so, Idrive only exists for BMW. . . JACKASS

 

Let's not blame the average car consumer here. Everyone has their preferences and not all are based on the same criteria we have. Let them have their criteria too.

But this is a sign that Honda is not appealing to the "average" customer, and by "average" I mean people who drive around in their Sentras and Camrys and Civics and say "yeah, I'd like to own that car one day." This is for no other reason than that they've heard they're nice cars and that they have a certain look or cache or reputation.

Before we make fun of these people, lets all remember that these are the majority of the car buying public and cross all levels of income and social status. A guy that makes $200,000 per year is probably still going to put BMW or Lexus or Mercedes on the top of his list (whether he knows about cars or not) as the guy who makes $35,000 per year (and who knows nothing about cars). Same goes for women. Ask a majority of 16 year old kids, and you'd probably get the same response. They're not all right, but they are certainly not all wrong.

To Lexus' credit, they have acheived a level of "recognition status" far faster and to a greater extent than any of us or any of Toyota's competitors could have even imagined, and is more of an indication that somewhere along the line, Honda could not execute in the same way with Acura. Is it the product? Probably. Is it the marketing? Probably. Is it people's bias? Probably. Is it the competitors? Probably. It is absolutely a combination of all of the above.

Honda/Acura targeted a certain niche with its products, and they are going to have to live with it. To change now would be a huge, huge risk. My opinion, they should have reacted years and years ago, but they didn't. So now they have to play the cards that have been dealt to them (or more likely, they dealt themselves).

If I had the power, and the Honda budget could be stretched and made to accommodate my will (include borrowing and putting a substantial risk premium down), I would shift the RSX as a Honda model. Give it a different name and let the modders go crazy. I'd change the exterior styling of the entire line. The pointed diamond grill and slab sides have to go. People who pay for luxury need a luxury grill and the diamond is not it. Something more traditional The entire line needs to be lower in height and wider in track. I won't mention all the usuals (more power, AWD, more luxurious interiors, etc.) They've already been discussed, but Acura is truly missing a distinctive look that has aggression but speaks class (softer, more rounded lines, more aggressive tires). Acura's are the least distinctive luxury cars on the road, and from the looks of it, a lot of "average" people wouldn't know the new TSX from a new TL to a new RL. There seems to be a little bit uniformity here born of cost-cutting(?) that's beginning to get annoying.

Finally marketing. The Acura ads have been, well, boring, typical blah. If you are advertising to a more affluent crowd or trying to get the attention of the "average" buyer, you need an add that does that, and none of the Acura ads are memorable. They either need to compare the cars to the other luxury makes and/or just out and out show the car as a piece of luxury equipment (remember Lexus ball bearing commerical advertising the close tolerances? or the Lexus commerical comparing the RX330 to the Range Rovers, BMWs, Italian makes....no comparison to the other makes including US SUVs because Lexus is saying that they are not our competitors!!!! BMWs commericals just flash their magic letters "BMW" and Mercedes goes with humor). There is absolutely nothing memorable about Acura commericals.

Lots of rambling, but it's, as you may have guessed, a frustrating issue with me.

 

Well, I like the fact that I don't see alot of TSXs or 04 TLs on the road. I've seen 8 TSXs since the car was launched and I've only seen 1 04 TL.

In contrast, you see BMW 3 series all over the place, which would drive me nuts if I owned one.

As far as I'm concerned the clueless can remain clueless..

 

^I hate to agree with the above poster(Gebbeth)...for we haven't always seen eye to eye in some issues but I do agree with a few of his points. The RSX has got to go. Its a fun car and nothing more. There should be more options, more platforms and change the ad company.

 

I test drove a two year old 325 BMW and was surprised that the interior room was about the same as the 98 Corolla I once owned. For that kind of $ I expect a little more. I was also struck by the number of squeeks and rattles. This is the famous German engineering? No thanks.

 

You don't even know. Everyone who I talk thinks MB and BMW are (the shit). I think Acura OWNS them all as far as reliability and price. I do kind of think they messed up with TSX and Accord v6. I would have been more creative and made TSX with an inline 5 or something to make Accord seem less appealing to the TSX.

 

No worries. What matters is what you like.

Your co-worker's taunting uncalled for and inconsiderate when you consider that your co-worker KNOWS that you bought your TSX. As long as he can put you on the defensive, then he succeeded. Do let him succeed.

We all have different priorities on what's important, especially on a sizable purchase like a car.

Think about reasons why NOT to buy a $40K or $50K BMW, such as poor value, mediocre reliability, etc. When you consider the opportunity cost of any more expensive car, tell them you have smarter things to do with your money than sink it into a more expensive car.

Dwell on the intelligent reasons why you made the right decision, what YOUR priorities are, and don't worry about the tactless jerks. Tactless jerks are a time a dozen, and it's your opportunity to rise above the occassion to show him through your thoughtful replies what a class act you are.

Doing the right thing with your money is your business.

 

well put brad.

 

I wonder if there is a BMW forum out there somewhere with a subject that's something like "My coworker says BMWs aren't worth the extra bucks"... It seems everyone is biased a little bit for what they like and away from what they don't.

All I know is that the '98 Honda Passport is way better than the '98 Isuzu Rodeo!!!

 

Brad I think your post was aimed at my initial post?

Anyway, he was reffering to the TL being overpriced not the TSX. And in no way was I on the defensive. I knew from the onset of that conversation that I had know way to convince him, so I basically just stated a few facts and asked him to price out a BMW and compare.

And Brad while I agree with everything you said, the smart decision for me anyway would have been buying an Accord EX V6 but the Auto enthusiast in me lead me to the TSX.

 

When you guys talk about enthusiasts, what's your definition? Enthusiast of what? Enthusiast in performance? Values? Looks? Designs? Engineering? Quality?

For me, a good car goes around a racetrack in the fastest time. All the rest is bonus. Hell, if Pontiac's Aztek can go around the track faster than my TSX, I'll trade it tommorow...(then again, maybe not)

 

Ask and thout shall recive

http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?p..._code=01386060

 

I guess there can be several definitions of an auto enthusiast. Like you said, performance, Value, Looks, Quality engineering, and design.

I mean the Accord Sedan is a great car, but its an appliance. There are thousands of them all over the road. Since I loved the look and handling performance of the TSX I bought it instead. A non-enthusiast would'nt have cared about those things and bought the appliance.

 

Ah....now I'll have to trade in my TSX...

 

In terms of the TL's price, it's less than $40K. It's $32,650 with out nav and nav is $2000 more. The only other choices you have to make are colors and 6-speed or automatic. The car comes with everything. And in terms of driving quality, it blows away the Lexus ES330 hands down, having 45 more horsepower and more responsive handling than the Camr...sorry, Lexus. Plus it's WAY better looking that the Lexus and is better in inclement weather than the BMW 3-series. Not to mention being more reliable than the german cars. It's a deal at the price...if I could afford one I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

 

if you would notice, domm is from Toronto, CANADA..where the TL is 40k cdn...but quality wise..the TL is not upto par in materials to the ES330, but the 3.3 V6 is more torquey down low than the new TL. but they are different types of cars.. Luxury vs entry luxury -sporty.... but the thing you have to realize is at 40k cdn it is same price, as a G35 but still cheaper than a ES. the main issue is people don't want to pay 40k for a honda. because in Canada...Acura=Honda in mindset of people... even reading the finacial post, they refer to Acura as Honda ACura while lexus is just lexus.... when people buy "luxury" car, in addition to the car, they want a brand that says luxury... and unfortuantely in Canada, Acura is not a luxury brand in most peoples perception..Acura is doing a slightly better job in US but in Canada, it is HOnda Acura...

 

Quality wise I think the TL is up to the standards set by the ES330. Toyota makes great products but Acura has really outdone themselves with the new TL. It doesn't have the opulant luxury of the ES but it's not supposed to either. It's a more fun car for a different audience I think...more the 3-series buyer than the C-class buyer. Plus the ES330 is overpriced and underpowered. 225hp is not enough when Honda Accords have 240. It's a relaxed car for people who can't afford an LS430 whereas the TL is a legitimate BMW competitor. Acura does need to move upscale though...while the Integra/RSX is a commercial success it drags the brand's luxury image down.