debayan

Could somebody provide a detailed comparision of the 3 cars.

fdl

A detailed comparison?? Hmm .. I think I am going to need some $$ for that

I'll make it short and sweet.

BMW 325: RWD, Best performer of the bunch (handling, accel, braking, etc). Also most expensive, especially when comparibly equiped. Average reliability.

Audi A4 1.8T: Great AWD system, nice interior, also expensive when comparibly equiped but not as much as 325. Handling is good, accel is kinda sluggish. Historically very poor reliability.

Acura TSX: FWD, very nice interior, most standard features and is the least expensive of the 3. Balanced performance, accel better than a4 but slower than 325, handling at 8/10s is very good but at limit not as good as the 325 (and probably a4). Great all round car for a great price.


Some people may disagree with my but IMO all 3 are great cars and you wont go wrong either way. So test drive them all and one will call out to you louder than the others.

Dan Martin

FDL has got it bang on.

debayan

My budget is 29k, do u think the acura tsx is best value in the range

darth62

I disagree with FDL about a few points. First, I think the BMW is going to be lower than average in reliability (as per Consumer Reports) and much more expensive to maintain than the other vehicles (over the longterm). There are a couple of feature that the TSX has that are not available (in dash CD changer, Nav system). On the plus side, depreciation is very, very low.

Audi 1.8 T has a great interior and exterior, and more standard features than the Beemer. Acceleration is weak, but only if you get the AWD system. The FWD Audi handles well and has decent acceleration. Audi engines are also easily modified to increase power (with a chip). Reliability has historically been poor, and cost to maintain quite high. Depreciation is moderately steep.

The TSX does not handle as well as the Beemer, but it competitive with the Audi. The interior is quite nice, but there are few places where cost cutting is evident (like the cheapo OEM mats). Reliablity is likely to be excellent, and longterm costs to own low. Depreciation should be very low.

The TSX is a great bargin, with more features per $ than either the Audi or Beemer. It does not ride or brake as well as either car(IMO). It should offer competitive acceleration and handling though.

fdl

My comment on BMW reliability being average was based on the 2003 JD Power Vehicle Dependability study. In fact BMW was even above average in that (althought not by much). But I'll agree that the cost of ownership over the long term (i.e, out of lease) will be quite high.


As for debayen's question about the TSX being the best value. Well it really depends on what you "value". I'd say the TSX is the best value because it gives you performance, luxury, and reliability at the best price. But if someone doesn't want a sunroof, leather, and other luxury features, and value performance above all else, then perhaps a stripped down bmw 325 would be the best "value". My point is that you are going to need to decide yourself

debayan

would the insurance rates defer greatly for either of the 3 cars

darth62

I appreciate your perspective, FDL. I guess I just trust CR more than JD Power. Consumer Reports rates all Beemers besides the five-series as below average in reliability. But, that is an argument for another time.

Debayan - you'll have to call your own insurance company about the rates issue. I got a big raise in rates when I bought the TSX, partially because it hasn't been crash tested yet.

wishiwere

When I was checking, I found among this group, the A4 was the cheapest to insure, then the TSX, and the 325 was the highest. Your mileage might vary....

One question I have though is why does everyone keep saying the tsx is not yet crash tested? How do you know this (I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious...)? It seems odd that insurance agencies haven't tested a car that's been out for 7 months in North America and almost 1 year in Europe and Japan yet. Also, on all the insurance quotes I got (I did this about 2 months ago), the TSX always had a safety rating associated with it, which I thought implied it had been tested. When I was checking insurance rates, it didn't seem to me like the TSX was not tested, just that in general, European tended to do better on the safety ratings than the Japanese cars.

debayan

any idea what people are paying for the tsx w/o navi

jcg878

Wow, fdl really summarized it well. That's why I like this site... we can discuss other cars without trashing them (most of the time). They are all great cars.

The 325i I priced was much more than $29k. I felt like the TSX was 90% of the performance of the 325i for 75% of the price. FWD was a plus for me since I'm not driving autocross but do have northeastern winters to contend with. Since we have a passat and I don't trust Audi's reliability, I didn't look at the A4 (but man do they look sweet!).

I'm with darth re:reliability - I'd take CR's surveys over JD Powers. CR rates most Bimmers and Audis rather poorly.

Let us know what your insurance company says about the rates for the different cars.

jcg878

www.nhtsa.org

www.highwaysafety.org

I haven't found the TSX at either one yet. It has been tested in Europe... did I see the link to it on this site?? I believe it had good but not outstanding scores. The safety rating that you received from the insurance companies may have been based on safety features, not testing (???).

Since the TSX is a relatively low-volume car, I don't think that either agency will rush to test it. There must be many more higher-volume cars waiting in line before the TSX.

wishiwere

Thanks for the info!

ecsw

TSX it is.

bob shiftright

The TSX has indeed been crash tested in it's European incarnation.

http://www.euroncap.com/details.php3?id=car_169_2003

I'm paying the most to insure the TSX of any of our cars. That's primarily because it's new, so it's worth more than our other cars but also because the insurance underwriters have correctly or incorrectly predicted theft claims similar to the legendary Integra.

Buff-Daddy

FDL's write-up was very fair. If you are going to buy, look for more expensive repairs after 5+ years with BMW & Audi. If you lease, BMW offers free maintenance for the entire lease term. You don't have to pay for oil changes, check-ups, tune-ups, fluid changes, etc. If you have a rattle, damaged leather, etc., BMW will take car of it without having to cause a stink. Acura kind of nickeled and dimed me with those costs when I leased my 99 Acura CL 3.0. It is just nice not to have to worry about it.

I lease because I know I am going to be sick of whatever I have after 3-4 years and want the newer model or a different car all together. I think I would lose my ass if I kept buying and selling, so leasing works well for me. It also makes the payments more affordable and gets you foot in the door for lease loyalty rebates. I don't see buying cars as a good investment unless you plan on keeping them for at least 7 years and I could never do that. My leases keep getting better and better each time. I get nicer cars and more discounts. Anyone who hs heard that BMW doesn't negotiate is on crack. They will sell you almost any car for $1,500 over invoice at any time. I got my 3-Series for below invoice because it was the end of the model year clearance. So even thought the MSRP was $34,540, my lease was only $35 more per month and an additional $1,000 down than I was quoted on the TSX.

I just saw an Arctic Blue TSX in our lot today and they are very nice cars, you cannot go wrong buying one.

jcg878

More than that sexy lawnmower ??

darth62

I think you missed my point.

I didn't disagree with FDL's general write-up. I thought it was very balanced and accurate.

I disagreed with his conclusion that BMW's were "average in reliability." I consider the best, and most objective, source of information on reliability to be Consumer Reports. According to CR, BMW models range in reliability from below average to well below average. The only BMW to reach the average level was the five-series. So, based on their numbers (which, by the way, corrrelate well with warranty claims) the BMW 325i is likely to be fairly unreliable.

CR's data are also backed up by other sources. For example, at carpoint.com, they have compiled mechanic's reports of actual work done on cars. Again, BMW winds up looking pretty bad.

The only place where BMW does ok in recent years is in JD Power's survey of initial quality.

The BMW 3-series is a fine car. However, owners have to be prepared to deal with below average reliability.

BHonda

My family has 2 3 series, my ex-leased 328ci and my mom 323i, both 2000, they have no problem for me beside oil changes, and I browse other BMW forums here in Canada or in Hong Kong, no one complaint about the 3 series. so I don't know why CR rated the 3 is below average, may be the quality problem only happen in US.

bob shiftright

More than the Porsche that made the underwriter lose sphincter control.

Admittedly, with a teenager in the household.

briny319

If your budget is 29k I wouldn't even consider the 325.

The 325 starts at 27,800, then u add the destination charge of 695. That only leaves 500 for options. And with bmw everything is an option. If you want a color other than black, white, or red bmw will charge you 475. If you want an auto tranny thats another 1275. Leather is an extra $1450. Power seats, heated seats, xenon headlights, moon roof, or premium sound. So you see your budget will only allow you to get a 325 with a manual tranny and no other options. While the tsx starts at 27k it comes fully loaded. To add all the options the tsx has in a bmw would be +7k. Since the a4 starts at 26k, I think it really comes down to TSX or A4. And the a4 is less reliable, has less power, less options, but you can get awd.

I would recommend getting a TSX for 27k or increase your budget to 32-35k and get a 325i.

darth62

Cars that are only 3 years old don't tend to have a high failure rate.

Comments on forums generally don't provide a very accurate foundation for conclusions.

CR has thousands of observations in their data set. Should we trust a few ancedotal impressions on chat boards or a survey with thousands of responses?

darth62

Cars that are only 3 years old don't tend to have a high failure rate.

Comments on forums generally don't provide a very accurate foundation for conclusions.

CR has thousands of observations in their data set. Should we trust a few ancedotal impressions on chat boards or a survey with thousands of responses?

debayan

Due to some rebate/incentive it seems that a bmw 3.25i is available for under 28k with premium package

jcg878

Is that for a 2003 325i, dealer stock only, no leather, etc??

I'd suggest emailing the internet dealers of a couple BMW dealerships and seeing what prices you get. If you can really get one for under 28k with the premium package (good luck), then it would really be a steal.

Where are you located??

tsx-mdxman

I think you need to drive all three, configured the way you want and compare prices. A good case could be made for each of these cars, plus the 9-3 and S60. Sounds to me like a great way to spend a Saturday!

debayan

near DC, dealer quoting the 28k price for bmw 3.25i with premium package is nearby

TSXautoXer

Kinda have a feeling that you just want an entry-lux segment car and not a really sporty one. I would suggest TSX for the budget, and don't look at anything else. BMW and Audi both handles better in 10/10th driving but of you won't drive like that, what's the point of paying more and worrying more about reliability issue.

bob shiftright

Premium Package:
Automatic headlight control

8-way power front seats with 2-way manual headrests; 3-driver memory for exterior mirror and seat positions; automatic tilt-down of passenger’s side-view mirror when vehicle is shifted into reverse gear

Myrtle wood trim

2-way power glass moonroof with “one-touch” operation, sliding interior sunshade, and wind deflector

Automatic-dimming inside rear-view mirror

4-function on-board computer

BMW Assist integrated wireless communiction system

The HID headlights, seat heaters, sports-wheels-tires-seats-suspension and leather seating are STILL optional.

Cars Direct gives a price of nearly $28 for the '04 325i, stripped, and you still gotta pay extra for the good headlights, wheels, tires and suspension pieces. Clear-coat paint, too? So it's about $33-$34k for a well-equipped 325i. Versus $26k for the TSX equipped with all the goodies. The 325i a GREAT car but IMO no bargain.

agumont

Debayan,

In the past 4 years I have owned 7 cars (all brand new); including several BMWs (323i and 325 i sport package) and two Audis (the latest one a 1.8T with the CVT transmission and sport package). It has become sort a hobby to change cars; I will stop soon. Now I own a TSX (carbon grey, 6 speed).

The BMW has been the sweetest car; best performance (it is truly an amazing machine). I had an Audi 1.8 T (sport/premium) until one month ago. Remarkable interiors, the attention to detail is superb, and the performance is adequate. You certainly need to upgrade the ECU to get more performance from the engine. In terms of design and beauty (with good but not exemplary performance) this is the car.

The TSX has very good performance; better than the Audi but not comparable to the BMW. It is a driver's car; you feel wired to the car. I enjoy it. However, the interior design does not compare to what Audi provides and there are many areas where the car just does not measure up to the Germans. I have also experienced several problems that I never experienced before; rattles from various areas, mis-aligned steering wheel, and others.

I don't think that I will keep my TSX for long; it is like a love/hate relationship at this point. If you have the money (and the difference is not substantial), go with the Germans.

Buff-Daddy

And the cars you have owned have been:

Current: 2004 Meteor Silver TSX Navi 5AT Build # 4919
Former: 1996 Accord EX Coupe 4AT 2.2 VTEC
Former: 1989 Accord EX Coupe 4AT 2.2

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where is your own personal experience with German cars? Have you ever-even test driven one or is all of your knowledge on paper? Here is my list of cars dating back to High School. I live in MN and have a new baby, so that explains my current obsession with All-wheel-drive.

1991 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-7 (aka - crotch rocket)
1992 Honda Prelude (w/4-wheel steering)
1999 Acura CL 3.0
2002 BMW X5 - Current
2003 BMW 325xi - Current (test drove TSX, A4, 9-3, S60, V6 Accord)

Sometimes you just have to get behind the wheel of a car in order to understand... We can ASSUME that the TSX will score fairly well in the reliability category, but we do not have any proof as of yet. Since it is a 1st year production on a new design, the TSX will have its share of problems/rattles as any car does. It is the size of the problem that will determine reliability. The old TL's had serious transmission problems and that is a much more expensive and time-consuming repair than some of BMW's problems. Even my 99 Acura CL had to go in a few times for rattles and erratic warning lights. Every car is going to have it's share of problems, so just buy the car that you really want and hope you get a good one...

darth62

My own personal cars have been Hondas. However, I am not the only driver in my family. We've owned at least one German car for about 20 years. Right now, my father has a BMW 330, my sister has an Audi A4, and my mother has a M-B "E" class. I have probably put about 100,000 miles on M-Bs and BMWs over the years and have had a hand in maintaining both. So, yeah, I have some personal experience.

But, to be frank, that is is essentially irrelevant. Your personal experience and my personal experience do not provide a strong base for conclusion. You are just one person as am I. I am far more impressed by the thousands of data points availabe in Consumer Report's surveys. Those data have been well validated (correlating with outside sources, such as acutally warranty claims) and they show again and again that Beemers are very unreliable vehicles.

I don't buy the the "just get a car and hope for the best argument." Any company can make a lemon, but you odds of owning a car that has lots of problem is far grater if you own a Beemer.

jcg878

I agree with darth. While personal experience is more influential for any particular individual, it doesn't mean anything. Just because one guy's Acura was riddled with problems and his new BMW has been reliable (or vice versa) doesn't mean that the next guy will have the same experience. CR's surveys negate that small sample size and dictate which cars you have a better chance of reliability with.

I also agree with B-D that we're presuming a lot about the reliability of the TSX based on experiences with Acura/Honda on the whole. I hope that we are correct. I have noticed that CR has been presuming reliability with Hondas, Toyotas, and Mazda as well - when writing about the Pilot, they said that based on the experiences with the MDX and Odyssey reliability should be good, even in the absence of Pilot data.

darth62

Completely true. But, on the other hand, the probabilities lean in our direction. The only Honda/Acura product ever rated below average in reliability is the Isuzu built Passport. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. A company that has produced extremely reliable vehicles for decades is unlikely to start having major problems although specific areas of difficulty (like the tranny issue in the TL) are possible in any car line.

dnb

Yup.

"It may be that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong--but that is the way to bet." (Damon Runyon)

tirebiter

I am in the final days of waiting for my TSX, and I'm checking insurance rates. I'm trading in a 97 Nissan Sentra GLE (quite a step up to a TSX ). My insurance company (Geico) quoted me a rate that was only about 10% higher for the Acura than for the Nissan. I'm sure all the safety features offset the luxury impact.

Buff-Daddy

So basically what you are saying is that no one in your family listens to you either?

Although Consumer Reports is a credible magazine, JD Power and Associates rated BMW 10th out of the 38 auto manufacturers for customer service and satisfaction. This was 11 positions above the industry average. And although Acura was ranked 3rd, Honda as a whole was ranked 19th. Yes, HONDA, the reliability God of the car industry was ranked 19th! So anyone can pull up a national survey by a huge company or magazine that makes their car look good or bad.
Rankings

JD Power also ranked the top 30 cars for 2003 and they put the 3-Series in 9th position, one position ahead of the 5-Series. Honda Civic was 13th, Accord was 23rd. There were no Acuras on the list.

Top 30 Cars

The 3-Series has also been on Car & Drivers 10 best list for life which is more than Acura's entire line up for the history of the company. So, if all you want to do is quote magazines, we can do that, but it will always come down to which articles you choose write about. I know BMW's aren't perfect, and Acura's are generally a better value for the dollar, but you also have to love what you drive.

fdl

LOL. Sorry darth...but I just found that really funny.

The study you have referenced is a for customer satisfaction, in other words how satisfied customers were with their dealers service deaprtment. Its really got nothing to do with reliability. There is , however, a JD Power dependability survey which is a better indicator and does rank BMW above average. Honda is ranked 3rd.

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases...asp?ID=2003050

Buff-Daddy

Well, if your BMW is in the shop as often as "darth62" is claiming it will be, wouldn't that affect peoples satisfaction about their car, dealer and service department?

darth62

Actually, my mother and father bought their cars when BMW and MB where still on CR's recommended list. Both cars have degraded in reliability and so I would argue strongly against such a purchase in the future. Had my dad asked for my advice at the time, I would probably have recommened the BMW, because the data were good back then. I did try to talk my sister out of the A4, but she wouldn't listen.

As for JD Power vs. CR, we've had this argument elsewhere. JD Power surveys less than 1/5 of the owners that CR surveys. They also work for the companies that they survey. And, every year, they rank horribly unreliable brands (like Jaguar and Ford) at the top of their list. JD Power is not a very trustworthy source of information.

In contrast, CR's ratings correlate with actual warranty claims. They have something like 15,000 data points, and I have corresponded with them directly and know their analyzes to be sounds Their data are far, far more trustworthy than JD Power.

C & D's top ten list is basically irrelevant. And, btw, your point that you "have to drive the car to know it" is also irrelevant. We're not talking about how good a car the BMW is, we're talking about reliability. BMW does not built a reliable vehicle (on average) and Acura does. That is why I think it is a mistake for most drivers to pick the 3-series over an Acura TL or TSX.

Of course, you pays your money and makes your choice. We all have to decide what is important to us in a car purchase. If performance is the main issue, BMW is a great pick. If you care about reliability and cost to maintain, you should probably steer clear of BMW.