CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Let me start by saying that I will not hesitate to shut down and delete this thread if this turns into a bashing of either car. My goal here is to provide a comparison from someone who has owned both cars (2 TSXs and now a TL-S) and who has enjoyed them all immensely. I know that many of you are disappointed with the path that Acura has taken with the 09 TSX and were considering an alternative vehicle, but have apprehensions about moving to other cars in the Acura line-up for various reasons.

Now, with that out of the way, a little background. Skip down to the Comparison section if you wish to skip why I ended up deciding on the TL-S and go straight to the mechanical details.

As some of you know, I opted about 3 weeks ago to trade my 2006 TSX for a 2008 TL-S. Part of the reason for the trade was that I did not see myself getting a 2009 TSX because I did not like the styling and was disappointed that the reviews seemed to indicate that the TSX had lost much of character that made me enjoy the 1st gen model so much. Another contributing factor was that I was getting tired of taking care of a black car. I do not have a garage at my current apartment and so trying to keep my NBP TSX clean was going to take way more time than I had. I did not feel that I was doing the car justice by keeping it dirty.

The TL-S is a car that I had previously test driven briefly and thought was pretty good, but my memory of it was cloudy at best. Now, I could have chosen to go with another TSX, but I wanted to keep my options open and tried a number of different models from different manufacturers. This included the Infiniti G35S, BMW 335i and 328i, Audi A4, Lexus IS250, Mercedes C350 Sport and C300 Sport, Mazda RX-8, Mazdaspeed3, Mazdaspeed6, Accord EX V6 Coupe, and even the Cadillac CTS. I considered new and used alike and played through a lot of different scenarios. My criteria really absolutely needed to include a 4-door, manual transmission, reasonable trunk space, solid handling, good steering feel and feedback, clean and professional appearance (I do see clients fairly often, for work and want something that isn't too over the top), Bluetooth phone linking, and HID headlamps.

After much analysis and much test driving, I narrowed the field down to just a handful of contenders. Each of them met my criteria, but at varying levels of cost. I reached out and started collecting bids from dealerships. In the end, only the TL-S, TSX, and G35S came in with numbers good enough for me to consider. G35S was eliminated due to the clutch and shifter feel. TL-S deal was too good to pass up. So my decision was made. (Props to Pohanka Acura for an excellent buying experience.)

How they compare

Having driven TSXs for nearly 5 years, admittedly in different transmissions and different suspension setups, I have grown to appreciate the tight predictable handling, sharp steering feel, smooth power delivery, and solid driver feedback. To me, it was one of the most enjoyable driving experiences one could have in a daily driver without spending insane sums of money. The sheer size of the TL-S gave me some pause as I was concerned that the extra weight and extra size would tamp down the fun factor a great deal, even with the extra power. Having driven a standard TL a couple of times, I was never impressed with the floaty feel of the handling and the lack of feedback in the steering.

Well, I am happy to report that the TL-S solves many of the issues that I had with the standard TL. The steering is sharp and the feel is excellent. Steering effort is suprisingly heavy, almost Germanic. The car does feel heavier than the TSX, but surprisingly, not nearly as much as I was expecting. The handling limits are high and the LSD contributes greatly towards the cars fairly neutral character in low-medium cornering speeds with a touch of understeer if you really flog it. My worry that the slightly nose-heavier TL-S would not turn as well as the TSX seems to have been cured by the LSD (which would indicate that an LSD on the TSX would do wonders!).

In terms of power delivery, there is simply no comparison. The TL-S is a beast. The torque is plentiful and dropping the hammer in almost any gear results in a surge of power that just thrusts the car forward. I have never had so many instances where I have to really watch myself in daily commuting to keep from blowing excessively beyond the posted speed limit. BUT, I was also surprised to find that acceleration in 6th gear actually felt stronger in the TSX. Most certainly a result of the gearing on the TL-S, but it is weird being in 6th and not having nearly the same level of thrust as I recall in the TSX. Interestingly enough, I find myself actually driving slower than I did in the TSX, keeping the RPMs much lower than I usually cruised at in the TSX.

Of course, I also find myself shifting less too, which is a real pity since the gearbox on the TL-S is quite good. Coming from a TSX fitted with the solid shifter housing bushings, short shifter, and skunk2 shift knob, all which combined to make shifting in the TSX feel like slamming home a rifle bolt, I was stunned at how good the TL-S shifter is. Throws actually feel shorter than the TSX's did when it was stock. In fact, I rather like it enough to leave it well enough alone. I don't feel like I need to make any changes (though I would say the same of of the stock shifter on the TSX, so who knows). The area that took some getting used to was the clutch. The TSX clutch is very linear and very easily modulated with good feedback. The TL-S is nearly as good, but the clutch is grabbier and the engagement point feels closer to the floor. Not really a positive or negative, just different.

Gadgets are absolutely no comparison since my TSXs never had the excellent Acura Navigation system. And while I rather enjoyed the stock sound system on the TSX, playing a DVD Audio in the TL just blows the TSX stereo away. The difference is minimal when playing XM radio or other lower fidelity formats, but the sound of DVD-Audio is stunning. I have never been a huge fan of navigation systems and while I think that Acura's is easily one of the best that I have used, I still contend that I would be perfectly okay without it. That said, phonebook importation from my iPhone is a truly wonderful thing and should be a standard feature on all Acura navis.

In the end, I do not regret making the move to the TL-S. It is an excellent car in its own right, but a car of a different character from the TSX. I loved the TSX for its tossable handling. I love the TL-S for its planted feel and phenomenal motor. I will not miss the sometimes jerky DBW implementation in the TSX, which seems much better in the TL-S.

At the end of the day, I thoroughly enjoy both cars immensely in their own ways. It is a larger car and that is something that I am still having a bit of a difficult time with, but will get used to eventually. I am still holding out hope that the TSX will return to its roots, but suspect that the 2nd gen car may not ever meet my desires. I still happily contend that Acura makes some of the best balanced cars in the world between performance, luxury, and value, but I hope that Acura really steps up to the plate soon because dedicated long-time Acura buyers such as me and my family are slowly going to be slipping away otherwise.

visuelz

Congrats on the new TL-S. Hopefully we can still see you in this forum . I love the TL-S.

jlukja

Nice writeup Kevin. Just don't go out and test drive the 09 TSX and find out you really would have liked it after all.

Miamicarfan

Nice writeup.

One question. What is LSD??

aprossi

Great post! I certainly appreciate you sharing your insights and experiences. I currently own a 2004 TL and my girl friend just purchased a 2008 TSX. I now have some hours behind the wheel of the TSX and am enjoying the ride of that new car. I really like the looks of the new CTS and was wondering if you can share any of your test drive experiences on that car and compare them to your TL-S?

Mister Nam

limited slip differential it helps with gripping the ground

anyways i hope you enjoy you new car! please do post some pictures

Redfish

iTrader: (2)

Great write-up, good luck with the new ride!

We have both, 04 TSX & 04 TL...wish it was an 'S'!!

godfather2

i always said that the tl-s is the logical next step from a tsx. smart choice

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

My experience with the CTS is that it is the best Cadillac to date. Engine is plenty peppy and the ride is comfy. Handling with the base suspension is mediocre with a strong bias towards comfort and understeer. The place where the CTS falls flat for me is the gauge cluster. It is too damn small and not that easy to read. Overall, I thought it was a decent car, but hardly a car I would spend my own money on, especially at the asking price.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

You be quiet, you!

And my test drive/review of the 09 TSX should be coming not too long after its release. Going to call my guy at the dealership to see if he can sneak me out for an extended test drive.

amadeus303

iTrader: (2)

The TL-S is definitely a nice ride... if I needed a car and was looking into the Acura family at this point in time, it's the vehicle I would get. That's not to say that I don't love my TSX... but the TL-S already does so many things well that I've theoretically tried to do w/ my TSX. It's loaded with everything, has ample power, and feels relatively nimble for its size. The LSD, as you've said, really does help neutralize the understeer on the car at moderate speeds.

Within the family, we have a '05 TSX, a '07 TL-S, a '05 TL, and an '03 MDX. Sadly, after seeing the '09 TSX, spy shots of the new '09 TL, and the MMC RL, I think we'll all be moving onto other brands... the '09 TSX specs are truly disappointing. IMO, the only vehicle in the lineup that has *some* appeal to me is the '08 MDX (for the wifey)

I'll be looking hard at the redesigned A4 when I'm ready to buy again...

ThirdLane

Limited slip diff. Send tq to the wheels that grip from the wheels that slip. Car with an open diff in a corner, you'll end up spinning the inside wheels. With a LSD, in a corner inside wheel slip is eliminated b/c LSD will direct the tq to the outside wheel helping it turn and eliminate the wheel spin

xenonhid

I already have to read globs of pages for School, long post indeed. Glad you like your new ride.

human668

Do you feel any difference in handling compare to those RWDs?
To me, the TL's nose is heavy. And with that much power, the front wheels are too busy.

mg7726

i'm glad you're happy with the TL-S.

still pissed why acura can't put the 2.3T motor on the 2nd gen TSX, ugh!

dom

Nice write up.

John06

Please post some pictures..... of ur ride Asm Type s

Destrejc

Nice Write-up!! Really informative. Post some Pics please!

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

For those asking for pics, check out the other thread I posted one day after getting the car.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42205

dom

Or go to Acura's website and look for the TL-S.

saw1

Very nice write-up. I agree with you. I went from an'04 TSX to an '07 Tl-s. I loved both cars, but after 12-18 months in the TSX I wanted more. So after 3 years I went for the Tl-s. I am now 16 months in the Tl-s and still very happy with my choice. I really wanted the G35s and still regret not getting it to some degree, but my wife liked the Tl-s better! (and she never drives it!)

On another note, I saw my first '09 TSX on the road last evening. It was dark red, and I have to say that it looked GREAT!!!!!! If the TSX is any indication of the 4G TL, it should be very nice, even with the fat chrome grille accent.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Honestly, at all the way up to about 8/10ths to about 9/10ths, you would barely notice the difference between the Type-S and its RWD competitors. Torque steer is basically non-existent if you leave the VSA on. When you push the car to the limit, you begin to feel some understeer on corner entry (which I must say is not something I experienced with the TSX, which was more neutral on corner entry, even at the limit) but the LSD does its job admirably and the car starts to rotate extremely well with just a slight reduction in throttle application (don't dump the throttle as that is a good way to get into trouble). The amount of sheer mechanical grip available is really impressive and numerous tests have shown that the TL-S actually has more mechanical grip available to it than many of its RWD competitors (measured as g's around a skid pad)

The RWD cars are excellent cars in their own right, but using the same handling loop I use when I test drive cars in Alexandria, VA, I honestly could not tell much if any difference in normal driving. What did make a difference for me was, again, the steering feel and feedback, the excellent shifter, wonderful ergonomics, and unbeatable value. Since I drive at 10/10ths exactly 0 times a year and occasionally have to put up with the shitty weather we get here in the Mid-Atlantic, I did not feel that RWD was necessary in my daily driver. And if I get the urge, my fiancee and I have a Miata which blows the TL-S and all of its RWD sedan competitors out of the water in terms of fun to drive factor.

mrgold35

Life would really suck if the all new 09 TL follows the same design as the 09 TSX

Then you made the right choice by purchasing the 08 TL-S.

jlukja

Kevin. Assuming your driving style has stayed consistant, how's the fuel economy of the TL-S vs. your TSXs?

LukeaTron

This description is much more marketing bullshit than an accurate description of what an LSD does. And LSD simply sends the same amount of power to both wheels when torque is applied. If one wheel starts slipping, no power is diverted away, rather the LSD just locks up harder and keeps the slipping tire from spinning any faster than the gripping tire. With an open differential, the power flows to the path of least resistance meaning the slipping tire would start spinning much faster while little power would make it to the other side.

To the OP, I'm glad you're happy with the car. It's one of the best looking sedans out there. And I agree, the DVDA is jaw dropping awesome to behold.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I wanted to wait a little before I commented on that because the break-in period always make a difference, but after two tanks of fuel, I am actually seeing nearly the same fuel economy (about 20 mpg) as I was seeing in the TSX (around 21 mpg) given my nearly all city driving routes these days. Very surprising as I was expecting to take a major hit in the wallet with the V6, but that does not appear to be the case, which is good news for me.

Newplay1

Hey nice write-up and cmon say it your going to miss the TSX...

amadeus303

iTrader: (2)

We get about 3-4 less mpg with our '07 TL-S than with our '05 TSX. I'm in mixed driving (no traffic)... maybe maneuvering through town is what's eating up the fuel. Even with that fuel economy loss in mind, it still wouldn't sway me from picking up a TL-S if I was in the market. It really is a great car that does a lot of things fairly well. At its price point, its also fairly satisfying to know that this Japanese FWD'er can hang with its German counterparts w/ ease...

On a very subjective note too, I may be one of the few who absolutely loves the dark gunmetal finish and look of the wheels... especially the way it goes with the rest of the gunmetal accents.

Of course, I also love the way the gunmetal looks on the Lexus IS-F... hehe

jmathew34

Congrads again on the TL-S, I'm really regretting the day that I have to replace my TSX with something else..

Who knows maybe I will get TODA to rebuild my motor so my TSX will be with me forever!

Kev, after break-in period we should "verify performance capabilities" between the TL-S and my TSX.

DAYTA

CGTSX2004, congrats on the new ride .

Does this mean you'll (finally) be changing your name ???




From a roll, a TSX with S/C + I/H/C/E combo vs. a TL Type-S is a very close race. I've test driven a TL Type-S (AT only) and while there definitely was oodles of power everywhere, it didn't feel like a night/day difference between my S/Ced TSX. I've also messed around with one on the highway, and neither of us pulled away from each other. Besides our ~300 lbs edge in overall weight, I believe we are at least even in hp based on my dyno results so power-to-weight ratio is in our favor.

From a dig, it's a different story. Our substantial torque deficit and lack of a LSD compared to a TL Type-S means we'd get our asses handed to us each and every time.

wackura

Which car is more fun to drive when you're simply weaving around everyday traffic and not able to push the steering or the power? I realy enjoy turning corners in the TSX at any speed, it feels light, smooth and linear and worry about losing that with any other car I move on to.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

The TSX will absolutely be missed. But in another 3 years, if Acura provides the necessary improvements, there may be hope for a return to the TSX.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Well past break-in already. I will have more time once school finished in May. We can find a place at night to properly run the cars to compare.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

In traffic, the TSX is definitely the car I would prefer since it was noticeably smaller and easier to dart through traffic (though the Miata takes the cake for that as I have yet to drive a car that can match the Miata in that category).

Luckily, I don't deal with too much traffic on my daily commute.

bhavin3623

man good write up

amadeus303

iTrader: (2)

The 6MT version and 5AT in the TL-S are similar to the TSX IMO. When I test drove both, my butt dyno told me the 6MT was quicker. How that would actually translate into an actual race... especially against your SC'd TSX, I don't know... but I'd venture that the 6MT would pull a bit more on you.

I drive my father's TL-S frequently since he alternates between 2 vehicles every week --- the 'rents live 5 miles from me. For me, I didn't necessarily notice the TL-S "off the line". It's fast, mind you... but it's deceptively fast. The one thing that really stood out for me was how effortlessly it got up to speed. In our TSX's, sure...we're respectably quick. No one can say we drive a *true* slug. However, when I mash the pedal and row through the gears, I hear AND feel the engine working. In the TL-S, the power delivery is just so much smoother. For this reason, I'm leaning towards going back to a V6 equipped vehicle in my next vehicle (prior to TSX I had 2 V6 cars), turbo'd I-4 be damned!

amadeus303

iTrader: (2)

^^^Btw... I hope I'm not coming off as someone who's touting one car over the other. I actually love both... and it helps to get my "fix" every now and then when I drive my pop's whip.

terpfan29

great post, and helpful to me. I am looking to get a car and am considering similar ones to you. Currently driving an 03 Accord EX V6 which I do like a lot, but entering the working world after I graduate in December and will need to pass the car on to my brother (get a new one for myself). I am considering the 2008 and 2009 TSX (possibly the 2007 used), the 2008 TL/TL-S new or 07 used, the 07 used Accord V6 or 08 new V6 Accord. I do like Hondas, think Toyota brand is too soft. Don't want reliability issues of BMW. Don't like the looks of Nissans/Infinitis and hear they have their own issues. So I figure I should stick with Honda (Acura).

Anyway you mention that the TL-S has hard steering which feels German like. I love that hard feel and think my current Accord isn't too shabby in this area either. My first car was a 1995 Volvo 850 and thought it had pretty hard steering as well. Do you think the TSX has stiff steering as well? I'm going to test drive the 08 and 09 TSX soon, I actually kind of like the 2009 from the looks of it. But definitely want to see it in person.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I have not driven the 2009 yet so I cannot speak to the steering on that from experience. However, per the reviews that I have read so far, people are saying that it is more boosted than the 2008. The TL-S definitely has heavier steering than the 2006 TSX did. I always felt the TSX had a good balance between steering feel and steering effort.

LoveMyTL-S

Awesome write up? Are you going to change your user name?