Brandon24pdx

Havent seen a post about this (and I searched even.)

I was wondering if anyone has found the switch that disables the clutch starter kill?

On my old Eagle Talon there was a little wire harness you could unhook on the clutch pedal that made it so you didnt need to push the pedal in to start the car. (This prevents engine wear...you're not really supposed to push on the clutch without the engine running and no oil pressure.)

Also I just like not having to push the clutch to start the car....

ILoveMyHonda

So im assuming you dont park the car in gear and just rely on the parking brake?

Cuz if you park in gear aren't you goin to press the clutch anyway.

Also why would engaging the clutch with the engine off cause "engine" wear?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

It's very dangerous to bypass the clutch switch. The car can launch forward or backward when you turn the key with the transmission in gear. Just imagine someone is standing in front or behind your car when this happens.

Not sure why you think pushing the clutch pedal has anything to do with engine wear when the engine is not running. They are two totally different components.

Brandon24pdx

Without exception I always park the car in neutral (unless on some seriously steep hill, which I usually just dont do anyway) so I would not classify this mod as a "very dangerous" one.

You might be suprised to know that lots of larger vehicles, like semi-tractors and thing like that, dont have those stupid starter kills on the clutch. (yes, I have driven a real semi-tractor before, so im not blowing smoke here.) They are merely things they add to consumer level cars to keep people from their own stupidity.

Honestly I cant describe in completely clear terms why its bad for the engine. I know it has something to do with not being good for the crank bearings to do this without oil pressure. Alot of the DSM and Supra guys will tell you this. Something I might check on again for a better answer

JTso

iTrader: (2)

I did a quick search on the engine problem you are describing and it seems to be all DSM related problems. I have never heard of such "crankwalk" problem due to the clutch switch on a Honda.

ChrismanTSX

wouldn't cranking the engine with the clutch engaged be way more dangerous for the engine than depressing the clutch with the engine not running?

cp1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all that happens when you push in the clutch is the clutch disc moves away from the flywheel. I'm not sure how that can harm your engine with or without oil pressure.

SoCaliTrojan

How far can a large vehicle shoot out if the vehicle is started in gear? Put a remote start on a car, try to start it, and watch it fly a few yards. If you did that in a semi-truck, I don't think it will jump that far before dying. It'd have to overcome all that weight. Automobiles need the extra safety measure...accidents are just that...accidents. No one intends on doing it, and if it happens, it can be quite destructive. In one thread, a guy let his friend borrow his car. The friend had left the car in gear, and upon returning, tried to do the remote start. Needless to say...the car took out the bus stop bench....good thing no one was sitting there!

By the way, the engine and transmission are two different things. A clutch is used because an engine is always spinning, but the wheels are not. Otherwise, we would have to be burning rubber at every red light! A clutch can interrupt the power flow between the engine and transmission, so an engine can stay on while you're braking.

Now, there are various types of linkages...mechanical and hydraulic. First of all, hydraulic systems don't use engine oil, they use a noncompressible fluid (ie: brake fluid). Stepping on the clutch pedal causes a rod to push the clutch master cylinder piston...fluid then flows from the master cylinder to the slave cylinder through the clutch line. The slave cylinder's piston then pushes a rod that moves the clutch release bearing fork. This in turn disengages the clutch plate. Fluid doesn't flow out to lubricate anything when you step on the clutch...it's just used as a medium to transfer/multiply force from one piston to another (or whatever resultant device you desire). In fact, if fluid were to leak onto the clutch plate, you'll suffer premature clutch failure (ie: oil from the transmission input shaft)

The only thing you have to worry about is the clutch wear when the engine is started and you take your foot off the pedal.

I just looked up "crankwalk", and although it can happen to any vehicle, the problem mostly comes up with 7-bolt engines (mitsu eclipse, eagle talon, and plymouth lasers). The clutch plate puts pressure on the crankshaft (via flywheel), so when you have crankwalk, you can notice clutch problems. The clutch doesn't cause crankwalk...rather, crankwalk causes clutch problems

Brandon24pdx

were assuming the transmission is in neutral here, not in any gear.

Brandon24pdx

Its unlikely to cause any catastrophic problems like crankwalk in a TSX since the clutch has such a light pressure plate, but wear is wear. Its still not good for the car to be disengaging the clutch without oil pressure.

So, has anyone looked for the clutch switch yet? (Been busy and crappy weather here.)

JTso

iTrader: (2)

I hope you realize by pressing the clutch down removes the load off the engine, and pedal up puts load on the engine. You can test it yourself very easily by watching the rpm on the dash. Pressing the clutch allows the engine to turn easier without the load. I think someone got the theory backward on how the clutch works.

Whoever that originated the idea of bypassing the clutch switch might have a certain reason to do so for the DSM. But the same problem is not common on Honda cars.

Not trying to stop you from doing what you think is right. But can't provide any info on bypassing a safety feature either.

poltergeist

Sorry, but engaging/disengaging the clutch causes NO WEAR on the engine/crankshaft/bearings etc...it just doesn't. The only thing that wears when the clutch is engaged is the throwout bearing and the springs in the pressure plate. Oil pressure or not makes no difference.

If you really want to risk starting your car in gear, the switch is right under the dash. It could be easily bypassed (don't forget to tell your insurance company).

Hondas pre-1989 didn't not have clutch interlock switches. As a tech for 15+ years I can tell you that it's not pretty when someone accidentally starts an older car like this in gear (never done it myself, but I've seen the effects) Fortunately in a shop there's a usually a wall/toolbox in front of the car to stop it, but why take the risk of KILLING someone (or yourself) for absolutely no gain?

Brandon24pdx

I appreciate everyones input here. I'll look for the switch I guess.

I still get the nagging impression everyone here thinks I'm trying to start the car with the transmission in 1st gear or something, LOL. (I'm talking about starting the car in neutral. The input shaft into the transmission spins freely when the car is in neutral...no load on the engine...only enough to spin the input shaft which is virtually zero.)

I called my insurance agent and asked her if it was OK to eat, smoke, talk and shift at the same time...we had a good laugh over it.

SoCaliTrojan

I guess Brandon doesn't do accidents. Let's be sure to bookmark this page so we can point to it when he comes back asking where to get a mugen bumper or something =P

And we all start it in neutral. With the switch bypassed, the clutch plate will be putting pressure on the flywheel, so I think the engine will have to work harder since the clutch plate will have to be moved as well. As poltergeist mentioned above, having the clutch pedal down has the springs and throwout bearing moved. I think by starting the car with the clutch engaged, the clutch plate will act as extra inertia for the crankshaft to overcome. Remember, the clutch simply provides a mechanism to transmit/interrupt power between the engine and transmission. Sure, you can start it in neutral...but the engine will have to spin the clutch, input shaft, and all those other gears and stuff connected to the input shaft. On the other hand, if you disengaged the clutch, the engine is isolated from the extra stuff, which means an easier start for it.

The only difference between OP's way and the normal way is whether or not the clutch is on the flywheel. Oh, that and the risk of going through a wall, activating your airbags and bringing up the repair costs so high that it'll be totaled (airbags are expensive)

Oh, and you forgot to mention to your insurance agent about bypassing the safety feature ;-P

Brandon24pdx

I looked for the switch for a minute but couldn't find it. theres a plastic cover that blocks access to most of the upper pedal area I couldn't really tell what I was looking at.

What is interesting is the number of people who obviously park their car in gear. I never do that just out of habit.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Well, that's bad habit and another safety issue. You can't really trust the hand brake 100% to hold the car in place... So, no hills in Portland, OR?

SoCaliTrojan

That's a bad habit. Obviously you don't have much experience with MT's. The parking brake isn't 100%. What if someone hits your car, a vandal breaks in and releases your handbrake for fun, or maybe you're just sitting in your car and you accidently knock it off? I had one BMW who's parking brake seemed to slowly go out. Eventually, I had to stick my finger inside the handle to be able to push the button in far enough. As I remember it, I had to pull it all the way and then some in order to get it to work...otherwise, if I didn't leave it in gear, it'll roll.

By putting your car in gear, you're setting up a backup for your brakes. If your brakes fail, then the engine can hold your car in place. Maybe one time you're in a hurry, and you drive up to your gf's driveway with an incline...you quickly pull up the parking brake and step out. You were so in a hurry that you didn't pull it enough, and your car takes off. It reminds me of those police videos on max X or whatever. In one video, the cop pulls someone over, but when he slammed the door, I guess it gave the car enough nudge that it started rolling backwards. The cop didn't realize it until the car was already about halfway across the street. You park an automatic in gear (sorta), so why not do it with a manual? (Or at least I don't think my accord rolls unless I move it into neutral...)

cp1

Try living in Berkeley or SF for a few years and you'll park your car in gear and curb your wheels no matter where you are.

Doesn't the Helm's manual have the location and wiring harness you need?

ILoveMyHonda

And to echo everyone else, starting the car with the clutch disengaged, if anything, would logically cause more wear and strain on the motor in gear or out.

And, parking with just the hand brake is defiantely a bad habit. The hand brake is never 100%, in gear and curbing is always a recommended backup.


but i think you mean....a few days

jimbo3123

Have you been listening to anything that has been said here?

1) It's a bad idea to override safeties.
2) Even if you never (usually) leave the car in gear, accidents happen.
3) What happens if you loan your car to someone else who doesn't know about (or forgets about) your "modification"?
4) It's not bad for your car, the clutch's hydraulic actuator has nothing to do with engine oil pressure.
5) It would put MORE wear and tear on an engine to crank the extra mass of the clutch/transmission components (even in neutral) when starting with the clutch engaged.
6) It's a bad idea to override safeties.


Seriously.

ChrismanTSX

...and see what happens next time you take your car in for service, the attendant takes it in, parks it in 1st, and tries to restart it.


This has BAD IDEA written all over it...

Brandon24pdx

you guys sure like to snivel around here

BoxedUp

Hey, why just stop at diasbling the clutch starter kill switch. Who needs all the other safety features we have to put up with? Let's continue and disable the airbags, the ABS, take out the seat belts...and while we're at it, let's remove all the emmision devices that rob our car's performance.
Brandon, it seems you were born a little too late....there was a perfect car for you, a 1963 Corvair.

Don't me....I'm j/k.

Cornell

I sympathize with the original poster about disabling the switch. My previous car was a 99 Contour SVT and I was able to find out how to do it on that car. It was a matter of shorting 2 contacts under the dash using a paper clip. This may sound trivial but one thing I miss about killing this clutch switch was that I was able to start the car without having to get into the car, just reach over and turn the ignition. For some reason, I did that quite a bit, like when I want to warm up the engine, when changing oil, and numerous other occasions.

SoCaliTrojan

When I brought my car in for an oil change, the person put my car in the aisle after it was done. As I got in, I noticed that he had left it in 1st gear with no handbrake. Now if OP was my service guy, my car might have started rolling....

Brandon24pdx

no, oil change guy is an idiot. Parking brake is not supposed to be optional ever...leaving it in 1st while parked is.

poltergeist

Per the owners manual, M/T should be left in gear when parked.

jpt

If your car rolls away and you did not BOTH have the car in gear (preferably reverse due to its shorter gear ratio, but first is so close as to make no difference) AND have the parking brake set (plus your wheels curbed if you were parallel parked), your insurance company will deny your resultant claim on the grounds of gross negligence on your part.

Handbrakes can fail in two ways. The rear brake (go out and look at that tiny little thing) can fail to provide enough stopping power, or the cable can go slack (all cables eventually do when stretched repeatedly). Both of these things are easy to miss in normal maintenance between safety inspections (and even in a safety inspection lazy mechanics often gloss over verifying parking brake operation). Putting your car in gear can also fail to prevent a roll due to compression loss in the engine or a failure of the clutch or transmission to hold, but these things are significantly less likely to go unnoticed, and anyway are totally uncorrelated with the handbrake so using BOTH anti-roll measures is necessary.

And no, it's not only on a hill that your car can roll away. Your car can get hit, pushed, leaned on, or otherwise influenced to roll by things completely outside your control, so do everything you can to prevent it!

Lastly, disengaging the clutch (i.e. pushing down the pedal) without oil in the engine has no detrimental effect on anything, because as has been mentioned, the clutch is not oiled.

joerockt

I wouldnt trust my parking brake as far as I could throw it. I always leave my MT parked in gear. In 1st on an incline and R on a decline. And really its not even designed to hold your car in place while parked. Its for emergencies when your brakes fail, using a cabled line, to slow you down...