cgull

If I walk into the dealer with 30k cash and a good trade, whats the lowest I can go? I am hoping for 25k with Nav. Is that reasonable? I am in Atl, Ga.

larchmont

Don't understand exactly what you're saying. What do you mean, walking in with 30K but paying only 25K? I don't get it at all.

Anyway.....if you mean giving them your car PLUS 25K, it just depends on if your car is worth a few thou to them.
But if you mean that 25K would be the price of the TSX, unfortunately you're WAY off. Nobody has come close to that on a Nav car.

A couple of other things: Cash usually doesn't help. In fact, they often prefer you to finance because that's how they make a lot of their money.

And to a dealer, "good trade" means just that they're ripping you off -- that they're getting your car for a lot less than they can sell it for.

jlukja

$25K for a TSX w/Navi is dreaming. Just about the best I've seen on this board is somewhere near $2k below MSRP (don't recall if that was w or w/o Navi).

cgull

Good points. So what is a 29k car worth the moment it's driven off the lot? Probably 25k at best. This is my concern. At any rate, I will see what they can come up with and make a descision.

larchmont

Why is that more of a concern in this case? Isn't that a concern with ANY new car that you buy? I don't see why you expect or hope for any slack on this basis. That's just how it is when you buy a new car.

cgull

It has always been a concern to me as I consider vehicles an investment. I normally buy slightly used to get around this but there are very few (none in Atl.) TSX's used. It is a nice enough car to break that rule perhaps.

Colin

IMO no car is an investment. Unless you are buying a classic like a Cobra or Ferrari, they are guaranteed to go down in price. There is a funny story with the MDX, when the car had been out around a year, the retail Blue Book was HIGHER than the factory MSRP, but to me it's still an expense.

7or8

The invoice price of the TSX w/ Nav is about 26K even. Add around $500 for the destination charge and you're at $26,500 already. Generally 3% - 4% is a good profit to make for them so add around $850. Then add around $300 for doc fees, title, and reg and you come to around $27,700 as a pretty good price to get it for.

Acura's holdback is 3% of the base msrp. So if they sell the car within the first month that it shows up on the lot the dealer will get around $850 dollars back from Acura. But don't count on using that to negotiate on any cars that the dealers aren't having a really hard time moving.

cgull

Fair enough. Is there any way to bypass the dest charge? What other junk fees do they try to tack on? Your numbers look pretty good...

http://edmunds.com/new/2004/acura/ts...ader..1.Acura*

7or8

Destination Charge
No way to get around the destination charge since that is what Acura charges the dealer for shipping the car there.

Documentation fees
A lot of time they inflate the documentation fees to make a profit. Don't pay more than $300, in fact try to keep them at around $250 but if they won't budge than $300 isn't too bad.

Preparation charge
Junk fee. If they're an honest dealer they won't even try this one, but if they do, tell them you're not goin for it.

Emission Test
Some states (like MA) require an emission test even on a new car. It's just a way for the state to make more money. If that applies in your state it should only be around $40.

There should be no charges other than these or what I mentioned in my previous post.

Off course be aware that if the dealers in your area are having no problem moving TSXs you may have a hard time getting the price you want. Don't narrow your scope to just your local dealers if your really hunting for a good deal.

Here's some info you should check out. Lot's of good tips.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...ng.buying..2.*

pollofrito21

Hahahah this guy has got to be kidding...right??? These are the people that Salesman have fun with when they come in trying to buy a car. My man wants to buy a car that costs 29K, that is in short supply, that is in high demand, for almost invoice. His main concern being that he thinks cars are investments and it will depriciate to 25K after he drives it off the lot.

Thats about as funny as people who wanted Siennas for invoice about 6 months ago when I used to sell them. You know what I would tell those people. I'd give them a crash course on Economics, and supply and demand.

You know what theres a breaking news story on CNN's Home page. CARS ARE NOT INVESTMENTS!! They are depriciating assets. If you dont want to take a deprication hit than lease the car. Remember you have to pay to play buddy. If you want a hot selling car you gotta pay for it. if you want it for invoice try again 2 years down the road.

cgull

Point taken Frito. Thanks for the feedback. But for future reference you could be a little less condescending to relatively inexperienced car buyers. Of course, if you have an axe to grind for all of the Sienna salesmen out there who can’t spell then be my guest.

7or8

I second that. Pollofrito21, it'd be more helpfull if you 'depreciated' your insults, than make a useless post like that.

biker

I don't understand this one. What exactly are you paying for? When I bought my last car I don't remember any fees. There was the price of the car+options (negotiated down to a resonable figure) and something like $5 for the temporary plate. I went to DMV about a month later and did my own paperwork (this also put off the state sales tax by a month). Is everyone paying $250-300 for this?

7or8

It's just the papework processing charges. If you do it yourself than sure you can get out of the documentation fee. I think in California the documentation fee is state regulated to a certain fixed amount, so the dealership cannot inflate the charge. It really is just pure profit. You can negotiate your way out of it if the dealer is more desperate to get rid of the car than you are to buy it.

biker

I always wondered if anyone has ever tried this approach. Say you have the final price sort of negotiated and then the payment options come up. Has anyone tried to pay for the whole car on their credit card? What would the dealer do? I assume they can't refurse your credit card but it would mean a loss of about 3% (depending on card) to them. On a typical 1% cash back CC that would mean $270 (1% of 27,000) for you and a loss of several hundred $ to the dealer. Would the dealer lower the price of the car when faced with such a deal?

Biker, who wonders what other creative ways there are to squeeze the odd buck out of the dealer.

larchmont

Sure they could refuse it if they wanted to. They could say that it's extremely unusual for someone to request it, and therefore that when they quote a price it's under the assumption that you'll be paying in a more direct way.

I'm no lawyer, but I believe that would stand up in court, as John Wayne Bobbitt might say.

The usual ways of doing business carry a lot of weight about things like this, I think.

cgull

Well, I just took the plunge and my Carbon grey AT / Navi is being delivered Monday. It was there but the salesman wanted to get the car cleaned up, etc... and I have to get the XM transeiver removed from my A4. I told him Audi should have named the A4 the "RN" for Ramen Noodles since that is all you can afford after maintenance . Audis are sweet until the warranty expires, then look out. I need Honda reliability. Anyways, I ended up paying 28,000 +TTT & the $299.00 "service" fee. I also added mats, trim and flaps. The interest rate with Acura was better than my quote from People First - 4.25% vs. 4.29% so I went with that. Still in a bit of shock as I have never bought a brand new car. Oh well, should be worth it.

ostrich

Congratulations, cgull! You have chosen a really beautiful color (Carbon Gray) so I am sure you will love it! What interior does it have - quartz or ebony?

I heard that same thing about Audis too - they are fine until the warranty runs out! Then all hell breaks loose and it's very expensive to fix them. That's one big reason why I picked the TSX over A4 or 325.

Have fun! Tell us how ecstatic you are when you pick up the car on Monday!!!

7or8

Congrats cgull! I doubt you'll regret your decision.

cgull

It has the ebony interior with the chrome. My dealer is looking into the Acura XM receiver that goes into the compartment between Navi and shifter. Probably going to add clear bra ASAP also... http://www.xpel.com.

I will let you folks know how it goes. The sales guy is actually delivering it to my office to save me the trip
Thanks again for helping out a TSX newbie.

Revenent

Anybody here think asking for $1,000 to $1,300 off MSRP is out of the question?

I'm looking at the 5AT/non-Nav CG/(EN or QZ).

Thanks!

7or8

Yeah those are great, I'll be getting one too. Good luck.


Again, a lot of it depends on how well the TSX's are selling in your area. Cgull got $900 off, so $1,000 - $1,300 is doable depending on you're area and how far you're willing to look.

Revenent

Well, I'm currently looking at Seattle area and Portland area now.

I'm hoping Seattle area will try to match or beat the Portland area, but that might not happen with all the Microsoft-ies willing to pay full MSRP for a car!

cgull

If you are trading then there is more flexibility as they can add to the trade vs. going down on the MSRP. The old shell game but it works.

Revenent

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately ), this will be my first car, so no trade ins.

7or8

Revent, try to email all the dealerships in your area with your offer instead of actually visiting the dealership...see if anyone bites. In your email list how you came up with the price of your offer (i.e. invoice price, % over MSRP that your willing to pay, Doc fees, etc.).

Revenent

Thanks - I'll definitely try that.

Unfortunately, I've already said I'll go and visit Acura of Lynnwood (nagging salespeople), so I'll be visiting them today.

Of course, that doesn't mean I can't nag them through e-mail from the comforts of my full-back, lumbar-supported executive chair!

cgull

You can get quotes over phone here and save some pain...

http://autobuytel.com/

Revenent

Been there, done that - it just redirects you to the local dealerships who will love to discuss quotes - at the dealership.

They're why I bussed (2 hours one-way) to Lynnwood today.

$26,500, w/ protection package (trunk tray, splash guards, wheel lock, film coating on door edges to prevent chips).

7or8

Keep trying other dealers before you settle for that price. $26,500 may be the best you'll be able to do in your area but look around to make sure. Personally, with the options you listed I wouldn't want to pay more that $26,000. Looking around will at least gives ya the peace of mind that you got the best you could for your vicinity.

TeigerSX

Hey Larch, I don't know for sure either, but I think I remember my salesman mention that you CAN pay with a credit card. It would obviously depend on the credit limit of a given card (which is a problem for many people, but not all), and the card's policy on maximum amount of transaction. Depending on these things, though, I don't think the dealer can actually DENY your attempt to pay in this manner. I believe the reason has to do with accepting deposits. It they accept a credit card for a deposit, they are required to accept a credit card for much larger amounts.

Not an expert, just going on what I remember.

TEIGER

jlukja

My dealer didn't even blink when I asked to put a part of the sales price on my credit card. I charged $11k (could have charged more but for the credit limit). I get the impression they would have let me charge all of it if I could have. I'll pay it off at the end of the month and have 11,000 frequent flyer miles to use.

jonredraider

My dealer said they would only let me charge 3k (I would have dont closer to 10k if I could). They said that they get charged a higher premium by the card company over that ammount. Was that BS? Or, did Jlukja just get better customer sevice I wonder?

larchmont

I think what Jlukja described is extremely unusual. And anyway I'm very doubtful that the dealer would have let him charge the whole amount.

jlukja

You know, I thought so too at the time. I told him ahead of time I'd write him a check. When I was there picking up the car I asked him if it was OK to charge a portion of it. His exact words were "I don't care, they might not like it (nodding his head towards the other offices) but so what?" At the time I thought "Gee, maybe this guy is gonna quit at the end of the year or something (I picked up 12/19) so he doesn't care". But, as a customer, he treated me great.

Thanks again to Dale Shirmer at Acura of the Desert

TSXhopefull

Sorry for sounding like the newbie I am, but I'm lost on a few aspects of this issue.
First off, when the word invoice price is tossed around, isn't it the the absolute worst price a dealer would acquire a vehicle for. Dealers that move record numbers within the manufacturer probably get a much better price as an incentive to keep up high sales. I have also heard from several friends within the buisness that getting good customer service ratings effect vehicle invoice prices. Also, as far as destination charges go, wouldn't a dealer that orders more vehicles at a time recieve a price break. I just find it hard to believe that all the dealers accross the nation pay the same price per TSX.
Heres an example. I open the sunday paper every week and see miller infiniti ad's. They list New 2004 M45's for $10,000+ of MSRP. Obviously, there must not be a huge demand for M45's. But why would a dealer even accept new shipments on a car if they are asking for $7,000+ under invoice. I just think that this whole notion of a fixed invoice price doesn't make too much sense.
Now I understand that Acura and infiniti are completely different companies. And there is an obvious demand differance between a TSX and a M45. The TSX exceeded expectations, and the M45 fell short.
I guess the big question is, this thread started by asking if it is possible to get a TSX w/ nav for $25000. Beside the opportunity cost, would acura dealerships really lose any money by giving this deal?

larchmont

I doubt there's much of "different dealers getting the same cars for different prices." But, when a car is just not selling, I can imagine that maybe the manufacturer reduces the amount that they charge dealers in general. Never heard of it, but I imagine it's possible.

BTW remember also that the dealer's profit is more than just the difference between "invoice" and what you pay; they also later receive "holdback" from the manufacturer, which is an extra amount that they get later on. I've never understood quite why they do that, why they have this extra backwards step rather than just subtracting that amount from invoice in the first place.

Maybe it's just to confuse people into thinking that "invoice" is really the rock-bottom cost to the dealer.

jlukja

Lets use a 6MT as an example. Dealer invoice (per Edmunds.com) is $25,967. I read that the dealer holdback is 3% so that makes it $25,187. Destination charge is $535 (per kbb.com) makes it $25722. My understanding is that the destination charge is non-negotiable. So, for a dealer to sell you a car at NO profit to them it would cost you $25,722. Now, you may find a dealer that is willing to sell you a car for less if other benefits accrue to the Dealer. They could lowball you on your trade-in. They could finance it for you at a higher rate than their best rate (i.e. give you price break equal to the NPV of the rate difference). They could offer it to you for less as a loss leader (some dealers advertise a few units at below cost to bring the customers in). Other than that I don't see how you can get it for less.

justinjsw

Invoices are all the same from dealer to dealer, regardless of make or model. Holdback is money paid to the dealer to help offset the cost of running factory ads, flooring, etc. The difference between invoice and MSRP is the net profit of the vehicle. From that net profit or the remainder of it, a % its used to pay the sales dept. and all others on the payroll. Why do a dealer have to buy a RL or M45 even though we know its not selling well? Because we do not have a choice. For example if we place an order for 15 TSXs for the month of March, the factory will make you accept 4 RLs also. It's a package deal so to speak. Over at Infiniti we order 20 G35s we get shipped 2 M45s as a pakaged deal, regardless if we want them or not.

Why can a large volume dealer sell cars at a lower price then a small dealer? Look at it as a Walmart vs a mom/pops store. They make up the smaller net profits by selling in bulk. If dealer A sells 200 cars a month they can afford to take a smaller deal on each car, where if dealer B only sells 40 cars a month they have to sell their cars at a slightly higher price to offset the cost of running the dealership.