waterrockets

You're not supposed to speak to young children with sarcasm, as they don't understand sarcasm, and take everything literally. "Just great, I wish you wet your bed every night!" will get you a wet bed every night.

So, putting quotes around something absurd, like breaking in electronics doesn't convey sarcasm? Welcome to the internets.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

the guy is 36 and still doesn't know what quotation marks are for.

GIBSON6594

OMG, your absolutly right, you're so smart...how dare I post in a thread in which you have posted oh master of the interweb...


and I didn't even use quotation marks

jlukja

Looks like we have been schooled.

waterrockets

See, now you're getting it!

waterrockets

I guess I spend too much time in FARK threads. Every other post is sarcastic over there.

GIBSON6594

Thanks, but i've had it long before crossing your path

waterrockets

good one

jlukja

back on topic or

GIBSON6594

OK, i'll lay off him, but only cause you said so Bond

jlukja

I think its a good topic for discussion and hate to see take it over.

jlukja

I can see how my avatar can intimidate you.

Dammit, now you've go me going off topic again.

waterrockets

Ok, so what are the disadvantages of not doing one of the commonly accepted break-in methods? I'm guessing that it would be loss of compression.

Does anyone have reference to a study that shows break-in method compared to compression loss after 100K (50K? 20K? 200K?) miles with standardized usage for the non-break-in miles?

curls

I don't think there's a true-to-science study of the different methods, BUT, I can assure you that a head mechanic at my dealership said the reason my car was burning oil like crazy was because of a poor, constant-rpm break-in (highway).

For reference, my compression was awesome (very little variance btwn cylinders, and it was about 230-240spsi, I think, across the board). My leakdown numbers were great (not indicative of any problems) at 7% or thereabouts. For 85,000km, that was great.

Turns out it was an improperly-seated/sealing oil control ring causing the burning oil. Compression rings were seated well (hence the good compression and leakdown numbers).

JTso

iTrader: (2)

I have similar experience with my Prelude which I bought used with ~180k miles. The compression is perfect across all cylinders and the car runs strong and good gas mileage. But the engines uses 1/2 qt per 400 miles. No smoke or any signs of oil burning or leaks. The previous owner (I believe he was the original owner) lives outside of the city and the mileage was mostly highway miles from his home to work. How the engine is broken-in makes a difference.

jlukja

IMHO breaking in the engine is essentially a process to avoid unduly stressing engine parts due to heat buildup until they have had a chance to wear in. The heat buildup would be strongest anywhere there is metal-to-metal contact, especially where lubrication is not provided, i.e. piston rings. If excessive heat is generated from friction (and combustion temeperatures) then the metals of the rings, piston, or cylinder wall will bear the brunt of the resulting damage. Most likely of this will be the warping or not proper seating of the rings. The result could include poor compression, loss of power, and excessive oil useage.

curls

Partially right, I think.

IMO, rings are well lubricated, because fo the honing pattern on the cylinder walls. The crosshatch pattern from honing leaves peaks and valleys which trap oil, thus, the rings aren't 100% metal-on-metal. The purpose of the honing is to HELP break-in the rings, by allowing the rings to wear the peaks of the honing down (think of this, vertically, with the flat spot facing the rings: V*V*V*V* )

What this does is still allow for some oil to get into the valleys, and continually lube the rings (past the oil control ring, oil is still present, and this is key!). But, what it also does it not permit too much pressure from getting past the rings from the top down. The ensuing flat spots where there were once peaks help SEAL the rings by providing more contact patch, thus, a better seal, and make it harder for pressure to get past.

By running the engine fairly hard on break-in, the pressures get behind the rings (btwn. piston and ring, in the piston ring groove), and push the ring out towards the wall (ie: expand the ring outward). This helps flatten the peaks from the honing stone, much moreso than just regular la-dee-da driving ever would. If the seal isn't made in the first couple hundred km's, glazing will occur, and the fine honing pattern will essentially be FLAT (thus, NO oil can stay up there, and thus, the rings wear out fast and then you will see some cylinder wall scoring (bad), or blowby because of ring weakness (also bad). Oil also helps seal the rings a bit, too. Think of a suction created when you put a glass down on a wet tabletop... the oil helps prevent combustion gases from getting past and into the crankcase (and is also why a healthy engine will consume a SMALL amount of oil).

curls

From what I have read, this isn't the case at this day in age. The metals used in engines are much more resilient to heat these days, AND, unless you run it past the red zone of teh temp. gauge, your cars' cooling system will prevent any harmful heat from getting a chance to ruin the engine.

I read numbers behind this somewhere but can't find them right now. The difference between the harmful point of the aluminum and alloys in the engine, and the mild heat created from running the engine within the stock systems' specs, is huge. IE: You'd have to severely overheat the engine in the middle of the Mojave Desert to cause enough damage to be noticeable.

jlukja

good posts curls. What I posted was my opinion and this is exactly the type of discussion I was hoping for when I decided not to close this thread.

waterrockets

Interesting, so it's more of an oil management problem? I guess you're more likely to have problems if you're lower on oil, or from sending burnt oil out the head.

Well, I certainly had RPM variance in my first (reads odometer) 9732 miles.

curls

I'll PM you my address and you send me a pair of gold star stickers, ok?





And waterrockets: Kinda sorta? I'd say its mechanical "mating" to achieve oil control perfection.

jlukja

AZine doesn't give us gold star stickers to hand out, but you get an "attaboy". The heat buildup I was talking about isn't the temperature of the entire engine but rather the hotsposts generated by high friction wear in isolated parts of the engine.

joerockt

This thread is comedy. Everyone is speaking like they designed the K24

Curls, please tell me you're at least a mechanical engineer...I might actually believe part of what you preach.

joerockt

I dont see any quotes around this

jlukja

Hey, I'm EE. I must have picked up some Mechanical Engineering knowhow by osmosis when I was in school.

joerockt

Well, I work with Civil Engineers...Their a lot more subdued then you guys Thus the word "Civil".

curls

Nope, can't say I am.

However, I do lots of research on my own into this kinda thing (hey, I'm bored at work, often!). Also, I have a few friends who ARE mech. engineers, and they agree with the theories I posted here. Also, head mechanic (10+ yrs. experience) at an Acura dealer also basically said "to hell with the manual, its there to keep the 98% of people who don't know anything about cars, happy".

If you search all over the net and ask anyone, you are gonna find that there are two very discinct people in this world: Those that run the engine in fairly hard, and those that run it in on a casual Sunday drive to church. Oh, and those that don't care, so make it three types of people.

There are hundreds of theories as to how to perfectly run-in an engine, and its like Liberals vs. Conservatives - they never seem to stray at the core.

GIBSON6594

You make me feel like less of a man

joerockt

Personally, I think their needs to be a balance in the 600 between hi-revs and variable RPM. So call me bipartisan

I was just curious about your background...

curls

IT Infrastructure Analyst, slash AZ junkie.

wiltok

Why not trust the manual? It seems to me that if cars were grenading at 150,000 due to improper break in - this would be a bad thing for the manufacturer as it relates to dependabilty ratings. Wouldn't they have the best opinon - afterall they did design the build the engine. All the data that I have seen regarding break in is from arm chair quarterbacks, heresay and friends of friends opinons. Just my 2 cents....

waterrockets

Hey, that's what they said. No sarcasm notation needed. Plain english.

ClutchPerformer

Makes perfect sense. Here's the key, though: The second situation, you only get a lot of blowby if your rings seat in a position that's not optimal (too much gap) as a result of a less-than-perfect break-in.

Definitely agreed there. The article recommends 2-4 seconds.

I don't think this is true because it depends too much on volumetric efficiency (the air you get in the cyl vs the air you "could" get in there)... I have to think about it some more.

ClutchPerformer

<< I'm getting a Ph.D. in mechanical engineering. My research is done HERE (link!).

You don't have to have designed the k24 to know some things about how engines work. I'm impressed at how much Curls knows for an IT guy!

ClutchPerformer

I don't think dependability ratings care about what happens past 150k miles... People just don't keep their cars that long anymore, and it's too easy to attribute any fault to use/abuse rather than something that the manufacturer screwed up.

Honda designed and built the engine, yes. And their goal is to get it to run for 50k miles with no problmes (the warranty period). After that, they don't care too much because they won't have to reimburse dealers for the work (although a company like Honda probably cares more than others). Anything good bad that happens during break-in shows up after this period anyway. Giving people as simple and safe of a break-in explanation as possible in the owner's manual is their path of least resistance.

I am not an armchair QB!

6SpeedTA95

Sorry I'm late on this thread, but that site is total bunk. The truth is you need to follow your manufacturers stated breakin procedure. Why? Because tolerances today are so tight that you can cause engine damage if you drive the piss out of it too soon. Problem with sites like this is they mix some truth with bullshit. So lots of folks take it as gospel when its just flat wrong. Yes hard acceleration pushes the rings out but with tolerances in todays motor this can cause more harm then good. As most of you already know the rings are not fully seated and have not worn in properly. Excessive abuse during the break in period can cause problems not only with the rings but it can cause the rings to scar the cylinder walls. NOT a good thing.

In short FOLLOW the manufacturers recommended procedure.

curls

Well, my boss thinks I'm an IT guy. In reality, I'd love a job where I do nothing but blab about cars all day.

Oh... wait....

joerockt

Ah, so that's where you've been hiding How much longer do you have to go?

ClutchPerformer

They say that the Ph.D. should take 3-4 years after the Masters, but I'm no superstar so I'm expecting 4.

Edit: I had to because I was studying for the qualifying exam. But I passed so it's all good now.

6SpeedTA95

lol, it took me 5 years just to get a bachelors...if you can get a PhD in 4 years after your masters thats pretty good