gilboman

a 330i with only 225 hp gets from 0-60 in 5.6sec...while cars such as new TL with 270 takes a full second longer.... that is why...and there is handling involved too.

biker

As Dan put it:
All I can say is drive one. You'll understand.
The BMW ponies behave a bit differently than the Honda ponies becasue of the way they get to the ground. The HP numbers are just that, numbers. A better measure would be real world scenarios like: Can I squeeze in front of that semi on the highway before he runs me over? There, 40-80 numbers are important and in that case the 530D with just over 200HP beats almost anything out there (because of the mountain of torque). Of course Americans shy away from diesels for one reason or another. Would everyone buy a 530 if you could get it for $35K? If packaged like the TSX with no choices and a compremises BMW could do it. But like Honda not taking chances on a RWD platform BMW won't.
BTW that 45K 530 is at that price because of consumers and BMW. The car starts out at around 25K (for BMW) and then the "adding" begins. Add bigger engine, nicer wheels, a few questionable features, pad the dealer take and voila. BMW counts on most folks getting a 530 (or bigger) with options to actually make money. If everyone bought a 525 a little over invoice via the European Delivery both the dealers and BMW would be in trouble when it comes to the bottom line. Kind of like HP giving away the printer but then making all the money on the ink.

tsx-mdxman

You just made my point, biker, they can't make money selling the cars at a reasonably high price and must resort to the old GM trick of nickle and diming you to death with options so they can obtain a ridiculously high price instead. I've driven BMW's - my dad owned three in a row, from 1980 - 1992. They're nice but ultimately not worth the price today IMHO. Terrific engineering aside, why should a consumer have to make do with cheaper looking wheels, bare-bones interior with no leather, base stereo, no nav, etc, etc, just to "get in the door" in a 5 series? Lower the price and I'd be all over a 530i like a cop on a donut (well, maybe not, it's so ugly now ). Instead though, I'd happily take a TL, a trip to Bermuda with the wife and vinyl wrap all the windows on my house for the price of a 530i today.

bob shiftright

C/D tested the 323i 4/99

(The 323i was a 2.5 but badged as a 2.3 because the "good" forged-crankshaft 6 was a 2.8 and even BMW realized some customers would blanche at the idea of paying that much more for just 300cc! The 323i has 170hp @5500rpm and 181 lb-ft of torque @3500 rpm vs the. current 325i 184hp @6000rpm 175 lb-ft. @3500rpm.) Note the torque figure BMW reported has gone DOWN from the 323i to the 325i!)

TSX hp is 200@6800 rpm and torque 166 lb-ft @4500.

For the 323i 5-60 was reported as 8.5 seconds vs. the TSX's 7.7 seconds (7/03).

Dan Martin

The point is that the consumers don't have to "make do" with the wheels, or "bare-bones" interior. They have the option to add those things at a higher cost. Some people are quite happy with the way the base 530i is equipped and wouldn't want to pay more for options they don't use. I guess it all boils down to what you value in a car.

Speaking from experience, I was going to buy a 320i with the sport package, HID+fogs, and metalic paint but I ended up with the TSX. There was nearly a $5000 spread between the two cars and I was very close to signing the papers. No question that the TSX is better equipped but I put a lot of value in RWD. The TSX would still beat a 320i on the track anyday but I just like the added control that RWD offers. If the 320i was just $3000 more than the TSX I would have bought it but the dealers wouldn't budge. The best they could do was $200! I said thanks but no thanks and I am very happy with my decision.

tsx-mdxman

Dan, don't take me the wrong way, I'm not trying to have the last word but I just want to add I think at the "base" 530i price point, I expect tons more luxury and amenities. True, it all comes down to what you value in a car...but people buying a bare bones 530i are definitely "making do." They're paying a huge premium to have the little blue and white emblem on the hood. Now my wife would kick my *ss if I brought home a $45K car without leather! FYI, the 5 series base price is now $40K for a 525i. That is obscene.

Buff-Daddy

1st of all, you shouldn't be afraid of your wife. With that said...

Your wife (and 95% of the world) couldn't tell the difference between BMW's leather and the leatherette if you gave them a magnifying glass and side by side comparison. If you haven't seen it lately, it is almost identical. We have leather in our X5 and when we bought our 3-Series, we had 2 cars side by side and as picky as I am, I could hardly tell the difference. I saved $1,450 and in 3 years the "ette" will look showroom new and the leather in our X5 will look like a road map. Honestly, don't just speak from "what you have heard", go take a look for yourself and you will see that everyone is full of crap, it is a perfect match.

And before you jump all over me on this one, we just sold our 99 Acura CL 3.0 before we picked up the 3-Series. The leather in that car looked and felt 10x worse than the "ette" in our 3-Series. We have had 50 people in our 3-Series and it is so funny to watch and hear them talk about how nice the leather is and how good it smells.
"Ette" is a superior product that people don't buy because they are too snobby. People here on this board always talk about foolishly spending more just for snob appeal, so I am surprised that people would be going after "not having leather" in a $40,000 car.
It is kind of like ripping on titanium components, they are stronger and lighter than steel, but some people out there are still convinced that steel is the toughest substance on earth. Wake up!

bob shiftright

My wife would just think I'd lost my marbles.

For FUN I looked up the prices on the other side of the pond, in the English magazine "CAR". At Friday's exchange rates the 525i goes for $43,060 and the 530i for $49,824. We're still talking cloth seats and skinny tires here. (I think this includes 17.5% VAT and import duties, too.)

But I was shocked to see that the Accord 2.4 "Executive" (best guess as to their equivalent of our beloved TSX) goes for $35,762.

$35,762?

vitocorleone

""Ette" is a superior product that people don't buy because they are too snobby."

Same could be said for the TSX, eh?

fdl

In C&D's review of the last gen accord they talked about how bad the real leather was and how even the BMW leatherette looked and felt much better.

But anyways, why all the BMW slamming again?

It seems like the only slam we can really justify against BMW is that they are expensive and perhaps less reliable than some other brands. Other than that, in every other category, they beat or at least match the competition. They also sell alot of cars so you have to agree they must be doing something right! (Although these new designs could reverse that trend). IMO BMW offers some of the best blends of luxury, style, and performance on the market. They make cars that both a lawyer and a race car driver could love.

Buff-Daddy

Nope, leather and leatherette look identical, so you are paying more when you don't have to.
The TSX and the 3-Series look totally different, interior and exterior. One is FWD the other is RWD or AWD. They handle totally different and each have thier own personalities, so there is far more criteria than just a title.

bob shiftright

Nope. BMW's leather is gathered.

So the true afficionado of dead animal skin can tell the difference quite easily. It's also available in a couple more colors than that fine German BMW vinyl, which is generally available in only black and tan. The rest of the world also is also allowed the option of cloth seats in BMWs. Not so in the US (except for the sport seats you can get on the M3).

Forget the leather. And I'd be happy as pie with a 530i (or a TSX) with cloth seats, they're warmer in winter and cooler in summer.

But the sport wheels, tires and suspension, the seat heaters, folding rear seat and the HID lights are STILL an option on the 530i. AND the leather is a "mandatory option" with the Sports Package. What IS the "Ultimate Driving Machine" with skinny tires and halogen headlights? A "Near-Ultimate Driving Machine"? So the bottom line BMW asks is north of $50k and you can almost buy TWO TSXs for the price of ONE comparably equipped 530i. So configured, the 530i is a FINE automobile. Is it "worth" it? It is to some, and not to others for a variety of reasons. Aren't free markets GREAT?

Buff-Daddy

The simple fact that you are trying to compare the TSX with the 5-Series is a joke. The 325i maybe, but not the 5-Series. You don't have to tell me about BMW's, I have bought 2 in the last 2 years and I know about each and every option that is available.
You should also check your facts, almost every person on this board feels tht the TSX rubber is crap and it is. BMW doesn't skimp on tires, brakes, "one touch" controlls, etc... And if the TSX comes with everything that everyone could ever want, why not just throw in the fog lights too? What is a sports sedan without fog lights?
The fact that you rip on BMW for not having standard heated seats and HID's is funny too. I have said it before and I will say it again, the guy in Arizona or any warm climate for that matter would rather save a few bucks on his TSX then getting stuck paying for heated seats that he will never use. And HID's are excellent lights for 75% of all drivers. For those who cannot see worth a damn, then they can choose to pay for the Xenons. Most people buy them for the look anyway, not for the beter vision.
The truth is that no matter how much you argue, BMW's will always be the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and Acura's will always be a reliable step up from a Honda, intentionally positioned and priced slightly below BMW, MB, Lexus & Audi because that is where thier market is and that is where they are effective. Acura's are usually peoples 1st nice car because it is the 1st nice car they can afford.
It might sound arrogant and/or snotty, but I can say it only say because it is exactly what I did. I went from my parents cars, to a used 92 Honda Prelude. My 1st new car was my 99 Acura CL 3.0 and then after I got married, we bought a 2002 BMW X5 and now traded in the CL for the 3-Series. I loved my Honda, I loved my Acura and now I love my BMW's...

Lorne Miller

...for all the bimmer freaks that insist on bragging rights on this forum, its your money to do as you see fit, go for it, I have many more things to do with my hard earned cash than spend a lot more just to drive a prestige symbol on wheels...the differences IMHO simply don't justify the additional expenditure, but hey, different strokes for different folks!!...just not sure why the bimmer freaks feel the neccessity to come over here and foam at the mouth over their cars, what's your point, are you trying to convince us and yourself you made a good fiscal decision? If your happy, be so, but stop trying to make anyone that doesn't own a whirling propellor badge feel inferior...sheeesh, get a life, there are many many much more important things to life than the kind of vehicle you drive...

tsx-mdxman

Audi's are fancy VW's. Lexus are Toyota's. The fact you don't care for Acuras (you've "graduated" from them! LOL) is fine, it's a matter of personal preference and to be respected. But spare me the BS about MB and BMW being inherently superior marques, you get more hilarious with every post. Save that one for your easily impressed friends. The point I was making was, at $40K, the new 525i is priced far too high. You mistakenly focused on the leather seating but that is obviously just the tip of the iceberg with respect to how few features you get on a "base" 525. Yes, it's true someone in Arizona might not want heated seats but EVERY F*CKING option he/she might actually want is extra.

Buff-Daddy

And yet here you are with 77 posts talking about your car! I guess it's ok for you, but not anyone else. And if you read my 1st few posts, you will realize that I did not start ripping on the TSX, it is a great car. Mr. Little weiner started trashing BMW's and so I had to give him a reality check. Everyone here is a hypocrite and a baby, if one car is a better performer, they will preach reliability, if one car is more expensive, they will preach value and if one car is a better value (V6 Accord), they will change gears again and preach styling. If you want to call the 3-Series overpriced compared to the TSX, then you have to call the TSX overpriced compared to the V6 accord which has more power and features for less money. You all act like the features on the TSX are free, well I hate to tell you this, but if Acura made some of those features optional, you could get into a TSX for about $23,750... The sport suspension is a joke because the stock tires cannot hold a corner anyway and the car is way to heavy. The Xenons are already outdated because they are not "adaptive" like the ones BMW are now using. The 360 watt stereo is worse than the standard Bose system that Acura used to use. All it does is help point out the inferior fit-n-finish and attention to detail. The truth is that Acura uses cheaper parts so they can have cheaper cars. They are extremely reliable vehicles and a great deal, but don't be fooled into thinking that Acura cares more about you than it does about making a profit...
You have a Honda with a different badge slapped on during the last 10 seconds of production, so please stop ripping on the Accord too!

provench

Ok - this thread is officially stupid. :busted:

Lockage.