Avoid Dealer Extortion Fees
08-11-2003, 02:03 PM
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Burning Brakes
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Avoid Dealer Extortion Fees
Dealer Extortion Fees (DEF) typically happen when you are ready to pick up your car, and the salesperson is writing up the sales contract, and you're only minutes away from getting the keys to your new car. The dealer then springs the DEF under different GUISES, but it's all the same. Sometimes the dealer calls it a Dealer Association Fee, a Preparation Fee, or an Advertisement Fee. They want to add anywhere from a few hundred to several hundred dollars to your sales contract.
The salesperson makes a statement by saying that the DEF is REQUIRED. There's nothing legally required about including the DEFs, however. By the same token, there's nothing illegal about it. It's a combination of extortion and a negotiating ploy. Yes, long after you had thought that you had already negotiated a deal, the dealer continues playing games.
DEFs are pure profit to the dealer, other than the tremendous cost of the pen ink that added the DEF to the contract. The effect of the DEF is to fully or partially negate the good deal that you had thought you had gotten. Even worse, is when the dealer refuses to negotiate below MSRP AND the dealer adds the DEF to the contract. It's adding insult to injury. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Other DEF-like tactics are to try a hard sell on extended warranties to you. A customer's "no" isn't "no" until they ask you five times and you say "no" five times. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Then they try to scare you into buying undercoating that your car does not need. Some added-on undercoating can trap moisture or block moisture drainage and cause more harm than good. In all likelihood, your car was properly designed and built and does not require any special undercoating. Some dealers install it regardless and insist that you have to pay for it, at a tremendous mark-up. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Other scams include mandated dealer-installed accessories.
The most blatant DEF is the add-on tag to the legally required computer printed MSRP that the manufacturer provides. These are two TOTALLY separate documents. Some add-on tags simply say "dealer markup". It call it toilet paper with very expensive ink.
Dealers that employ any of the preceding tactics of extortion, misinformation, pressure, duress, or "smoked mirror requirements" do not deserve your business. It's all very expensive ink from a very cheap ballpoint pen.
The salesperson makes a statement by saying that the DEF is REQUIRED. There's nothing legally required about including the DEFs, however. By the same token, there's nothing illegal about it. It's a combination of extortion and a negotiating ploy. Yes, long after you had thought that you had already negotiated a deal, the dealer continues playing games.
DEFs are pure profit to the dealer, other than the tremendous cost of the pen ink that added the DEF to the contract. The effect of the DEF is to fully or partially negate the good deal that you had thought you had gotten. Even worse, is when the dealer refuses to negotiate below MSRP AND the dealer adds the DEF to the contract. It's adding insult to injury. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Other DEF-like tactics are to try a hard sell on extended warranties to you. A customer's "no" isn't "no" until they ask you five times and you say "no" five times. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Then they try to scare you into buying undercoating that your car does not need. Some added-on undercoating can trap moisture or block moisture drainage and cause more harm than good. In all likelihood, your car was properly designed and built and does not require any special undercoating. Some dealers install it regardless and insist that you have to pay for it, at a tremendous mark-up. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Other scams include mandated dealer-installed accessories.
The most blatant DEF is the add-on tag to the legally required computer printed MSRP that the manufacturer provides. These are two TOTALLY separate documents. Some add-on tags simply say "dealer markup". It call it toilet paper with very expensive ink.
Dealers that employ any of the preceding tactics of extortion, misinformation, pressure, duress, or "smoked mirror requirements" do not deserve your business. It's all very expensive ink from a very cheap ballpoint pen.
08-11-2003, 04:28 PM
#2
'12 TL (prev '04 TSX 6MT)
FWIW, I refused the extended warranty, etch-guard, etc. There was a $499 dealer charge they typically add, but that was negated early on in the dealings. Then that amount was pre-printed on the sales agreement, so they dropped the agreed-upon price by $499 to counter-balance it.
08-11-2003, 05:59 PM
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When I went to Ron Tonkin Acura...I paid MSRP, free accessories (cargo net, etc. cheap stuff), and title/doc fees ($30,$33, $50). That's it.
Pleasant to just walk in and not put up with all the B.S. (like the last Hondas we bought).
Overall: A+ to Ron Tonkin Acura.
On a side note, Acura of Portland (Dick Hannah) was wanting to charge $4K over MSRP and was generally the same old "dealer runaround".
EDIT: I wanted to add that the buyer has all the power. I was negotating deals as far away as Bellvue for $300 under MSRP. With e-mail/phone you don't have to just stick with the local dealers.
Pleasant to just walk in and not put up with all the B.S. (like the last Hondas we bought).
Overall: A+ to Ron Tonkin Acura.
On a side note, Acura of Portland (Dick Hannah) was wanting to charge $4K over MSRP and was generally the same old "dealer runaround".
EDIT: I wanted to add that the buyer has all the power. I was negotating deals as far away as Bellvue for $300 under MSRP. With e-mail/phone you don't have to just stick with the local dealers.
08-11-2003, 06:10 PM
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Re: Avoid Dealer Extortion Fees
Originally posted by Brad
.....DEFs are pure profit to the dealer, other than the tremendous cost of the pen ink that added the DEF to the contract.....
.....DEFs are pure profit to the dealer, other than the tremendous cost of the pen ink that added the DEF to the contract.....
08-11-2003, 08:05 PM
#5
GEEZER
Brad...you are a tad cynical....Who FUCKED you over???
There are not that many dealers like that around anymore....
A good safegaurd..."Buyer Beware" do your homework and cover your ass...and you won't get screwed like Brad did.
There are not that many dealers like that around anymore....
A good safegaurd..."Buyer Beware" do your homework and cover your ass...and you won't get screwed like Brad did.
08-11-2003, 11:35 PM
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Dealers like this exist - Mike Harvey Acura in Burlingame tried all of the tactics listed by Brad above to me, except for the Dealer Association Fee/Preparation Fee/Advertisement Fee. They may have tried that on me, I'll never know because I said "I'm not going to pay for any BS Advertising or other charges"
Oh, and everytime they tried the other crap, I laughed at them and said "No other Acura dealer is doing this stuff, how can you guys get away with it??"
Oh, and everytime they tried the other crap, I laughed at them and said "No other Acura dealer is doing this stuff, how can you guys get away with it??"
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08-12-2003, 12:04 AM
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Burning Brakes
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Originally posted by 1killercls
Brad...you are a tad cynical....Who FUCKED you over???
There are not that many dealers like that around anymore....
A good safegaurd..."Buyer Beware" do your homework and cover your ass...and you won't get screwed like Brad did.
Brad...you are a tad cynical....Who FUCKED you over???
There are not that many dealers like that around anymore....
A good safegaurd..."Buyer Beware" do your homework and cover your ass...and you won't get screwed like Brad did.
Where did I state that I got screwed with those charges?
I didn't get screwed. I've personally seen some dealers trying to pull these stunts. Read some of the replies to my original posting. It happens!
Cynical? No. How about Realistic?
You haven't met some of the dealers I have. I've known some in the business. It's very real in some areas, particularly the San Francisco Bay Area. That said, there are some very good reputable dealers in the area too.
Believe me these tactics are very real to the sucker that's born every day. That's not cynicism.
08-12-2003, 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by Brad
Pardon me?
Pardon me?
As it stands, it's kind of a linguistic puzzle, which makes it more interesting, although certainly dumb.
The way I see it, either he meant he got screwed a little bit on his car;
or he meant to put a "?" at the end (but forgot), meaning he didn't understand what Killer meant.
(I know, too much free time.)
08-13-2003, 01:23 PM
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Ways To Avoid Dealer Rip Off - Extortion Fees
A. To compare pricing, get quotes from many dealers via Web/email. The important thing is to get it in print or writing before you visit a dealer or talk with a salesperson. Be suspicious of dealers who do not honor your request for an email quote. Go ahead and let the salesperson squirm.
B. From the onset, after you get your quoted or negotiated price that you're (more or less) happy with, talk with the dealer contact and:
--Make it clear that in addition to the agreed-upon price, that you will pay ONLY legally mandated fees, like sales tax, registration, smog, and government fees.
--Make it clear face-to-face or via phone with the dealer contact that you do not pay extra dealer fees. Does the salesperson understand and agree? And ask how much their doc fee is. (I'm in the high-priced San Francisco area, and my dealers typically charge $50 or less for a doc fee.) If you and the dealer are in agreement, go forward.
C. Get a "Review Deal" sheet. This sheet shows the agreed-upon price, plus legally mandated fees, AND your total out-the-door price. This is a printout that you should KEEP, especially if you are placing a deposit on a car. There's no reason for the salesperson to refuse to print that. This is NOT the sales contract. It's only a computer-printed review sheet, a commonly available document.
D. If the dealer has any trumped up fees on the Review Deal sheet, tell them to remove them NOW not later, and reprint the Review Deal sheet CORRECTLY. Remind the salesperson that his/her use of "REQUIRED" is not the same as LEGALLY mandated fees. (For examples of trumped up fees, see my first posting in this message string.)
There's no reason for me to be defensive--or be accused of being cynical--but these are real issues facing some customers at some dealers. Some customers forget that they are in the driver's seat, so they literally throw away hundreds or thousands of dollars in meaningless dealer extortion fees.
A. To compare pricing, get quotes from many dealers via Web/email. The important thing is to get it in print or writing before you visit a dealer or talk with a salesperson. Be suspicious of dealers who do not honor your request for an email quote. Go ahead and let the salesperson squirm.
B. From the onset, after you get your quoted or negotiated price that you're (more or less) happy with, talk with the dealer contact and:
--Make it clear that in addition to the agreed-upon price, that you will pay ONLY legally mandated fees, like sales tax, registration, smog, and government fees.
--Make it clear face-to-face or via phone with the dealer contact that you do not pay extra dealer fees. Does the salesperson understand and agree? And ask how much their doc fee is. (I'm in the high-priced San Francisco area, and my dealers typically charge $50 or less for a doc fee.) If you and the dealer are in agreement, go forward.
C. Get a "Review Deal" sheet. This sheet shows the agreed-upon price, plus legally mandated fees, AND your total out-the-door price. This is a printout that you should KEEP, especially if you are placing a deposit on a car. There's no reason for the salesperson to refuse to print that. This is NOT the sales contract. It's only a computer-printed review sheet, a commonly available document.
D. If the dealer has any trumped up fees on the Review Deal sheet, tell them to remove them NOW not later, and reprint the Review Deal sheet CORRECTLY. Remind the salesperson that his/her use of "REQUIRED" is not the same as LEGALLY mandated fees. (For examples of trumped up fees, see my first posting in this message string.)
There's no reason for me to be defensive--or be accused of being cynical--but these are real issues facing some customers at some dealers. Some customers forget that they are in the driver's seat, so they literally throw away hundreds or thousands of dollars in meaningless dealer extortion fees.
08-13-2003, 01:38 PM
#12
Suzuka Master
To make a long story short, just pay what is legally required. If a dealer has any sort of fees (whether Doc. fees that exceed $100, advert. fees, etc.) don't pay them. Tell them that you aren't legally required to do it by your state and that you won't buy with them included. The dealer will have to remove them. Though there are a few dealers out there that try to stick you with a thousand bucks in fees, there are a few of them out there (we're lucky to be a nice one) that try to be straight and legit.
12-09-2003, 07:21 PM
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Here's an article about the very same dealer scam (aka dealer extortion) that millions of car buyers unknowingly fall prey to:
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autoscon...b02-345645.htm
Don't fall prey! It's ALL a game that some compare to mobster tactics.
tsk, tsk. The Industry downplays the tactics! If the car manufacturers had guts, a lot of dealers would lose their franchises! That the manufacturers tolerate the scam makes them secondary parties, IMHO.
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autoscon...b02-345645.htm
Don't fall prey! It's ALL a game that some compare to mobster tactics.
tsk, tsk. The Industry downplays the tactics! If the car manufacturers had guts, a lot of dealers would lose their franchises! That the manufacturers tolerate the scam makes them secondary parties, IMHO.
12-10-2003, 01:22 AM
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I got taken at Acura of Mobile on the damn dealer extortion fees. First time I bought a car with my own money and I basically fucked up that part of negotiations. Document fees were $300 on the car, which I knew was at least 200 too high. I argued it for a minute and folded due to the fact that they had the exact car, configuration, and color on the lot. I got 500 under sticker before that though, so I still ended up 200 under MSRP, but everytime I think about that damn $300 fee it pisses me off a little bit.
Lessons learned, eh?
Lessons learned, eh?
05-24-2005, 04:37 PM
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I just reviewed the comments posted by Brad, and have some difficulty with them.
His comments do not consider the sales person at all. I have worked for almost 7 years now and have found MANY of the "buyer beware" myths to be untrue.
1) The sales person is just trying to make a living, feed his family, etc. -- without the salesman, you wouldn't be able to get the car. Don't insinuate that just because a man is trying to make a profit that he's a scam artist. The salesman's commission is not on the total cost of the car, its on the commissionable gross. Total Price - Dealer Cost = Commissionable Gross. Of the CG, roughly 50% is "Front-End" gross, and the other half is "Back-End". Salesman typically get 10-25% of Front-End gross... which is anywhere from $100 - $300 on most cars. Stop grinding the guy for a few bucks.
2) Do you realize what the average commission is on a new car? Do you even know how much paper work *is* involved on the salesperson's side alone? The average comission is $100-$200... and for that you have to consider after the sale needs as well.
3) How much do you value the car you're buying to begin with? Some customers aren't happy no matter how much they pay. They call that being stingy. If you won't be happy unless you save $100, $200 or more just for principle, chances are you're stingy.
My final thought: don't be afraid to pay for a car. The happiest customers in the world are the ones who pay a little more for their car. The reality is, you're most likely financing the vehicle anyways. Unless you're paying CASH for your car, why should you complain about paying $1 more per month to help a man feed his family?
Unless perhaps your only motive is to get as much as you can for yourself, all the time.
His comments do not consider the sales person at all. I have worked for almost 7 years now and have found MANY of the "buyer beware" myths to be untrue.
1) The sales person is just trying to make a living, feed his family, etc. -- without the salesman, you wouldn't be able to get the car. Don't insinuate that just because a man is trying to make a profit that he's a scam artist. The salesman's commission is not on the total cost of the car, its on the commissionable gross. Total Price - Dealer Cost = Commissionable Gross. Of the CG, roughly 50% is "Front-End" gross, and the other half is "Back-End". Salesman typically get 10-25% of Front-End gross... which is anywhere from $100 - $300 on most cars. Stop grinding the guy for a few bucks.
2) Do you realize what the average commission is on a new car? Do you even know how much paper work *is* involved on the salesperson's side alone? The average comission is $100-$200... and for that you have to consider after the sale needs as well.
3) How much do you value the car you're buying to begin with? Some customers aren't happy no matter how much they pay. They call that being stingy. If you won't be happy unless you save $100, $200 or more just for principle, chances are you're stingy.
My final thought: don't be afraid to pay for a car. The happiest customers in the world are the ones who pay a little more for their car. The reality is, you're most likely financing the vehicle anyways. Unless you're paying CASH for your car, why should you complain about paying $1 more per month to help a man feed his family?
Unless perhaps your only motive is to get as much as you can for yourself, all the time.
05-24-2005, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tekn0mage
I just reviewed the comments posted by Brad, and have some difficulty with them.
His comments do not consider the sales person at all. I have worked for almost 7 years now and have found MANY of the "buyer beware" myths to be untrue.
1) The sales person is just trying to make a living, feed his family, etc. -- without the salesman, you wouldn't be able to get the car. Don't insinuate that just because a man is trying to make a profit that he's a scam artist. The salesman's commission is not on the total cost of the car, its on the commissionable gross. Total Price - Dealer Cost = Commissionable Gross. Of the CG, roughly 50% is "Front-End" gross, and the other half is "Back-End". Salesman typically get 10-25% of Front-End gross... which is anywhere from $100 - $300 on most cars. Stop grinding the guy for a few bucks.
His comments do not consider the sales person at all. I have worked for almost 7 years now and have found MANY of the "buyer beware" myths to be untrue.
1) The sales person is just trying to make a living, feed his family, etc. -- without the salesman, you wouldn't be able to get the car. Don't insinuate that just because a man is trying to make a profit that he's a scam artist. The salesman's commission is not on the total cost of the car, its on the commissionable gross. Total Price - Dealer Cost = Commissionable Gross. Of the CG, roughly 50% is "Front-End" gross, and the other half is "Back-End". Salesman typically get 10-25% of Front-End gross... which is anywhere from $100 - $300 on most cars. Stop grinding the guy for a few bucks.
Originally Posted by tekn0mage
2) Do you realize what the average commission is on a new car? Do you even know how much paper work *is* involved on the salesperson's side alone? The average comission is $100-$200... and for that you have to consider after the sale needs as well.
[QUOTE=tekn0mage]
3) How much do you value the car you're buying to begin with? Some customers aren't happy no matter how much they pay. They call that being stingy. If you won't be happy unless you save $100, $200 or more just for principle, chances are you're stingy.
There is no car worth MSRP...Period...
Originally Posted by tekn0mage
My final thought: don't be afraid to pay for a car. The happiest customers in the world are the ones who pay a little more for their car. The reality is, you're most likely financing the vehicle anyways. Unless you're paying CASH for your car, why should you complain about paying $1 more per month to help a man feed his family?
Unless perhaps your only motive is to get as much as you can for yourself, all the time.
Unless perhaps your only motive is to get as much as you can for yourself, all the time.
05-24-2005, 05:09 PM
#17
My Garage
Originally Posted by tekn0mage
I just reviewed the comments posted by Brad, and have some difficulty with them.
His comments do not consider the sales person at all. I have worked for almost 7 years now and have found MANY of the "buyer beware" myths to be untrue.
1) The sales person is just trying to make a living, feed his family, etc. -- without the salesman, you wouldn't be able to get the car. Don't insinuate that just because a man is trying to make a profit that he's a scam artist. The salesman's commission is not on the total cost of the car, its on the commissionable gross. Total Price - Dealer Cost = Commissionable Gross. Of the CG, roughly 50% is "Front-End" gross, and the other half is "Back-End". Salesman typically get 10-25% of Front-End gross... which is anywhere from $100 - $300 on most cars. Stop grinding the guy for a few bucks.
2) Do you realize what the average commission is on a new car? Do you even know how much paper work *is* involved on the salesperson's side alone? The average comission is $100-$200... and for that you have to consider after the sale needs as well.
3) How much do you value the car you're buying to begin with? Some customers aren't happy no matter how much they pay. They call that being stingy. If you won't be happy unless you save $100, $200 or more just for principle, chances are you're stingy.
My final thought: don't be afraid to pay for a car. The happiest customers in the world are the ones who pay a little more for their car. The reality is, you're most likely financing the vehicle anyways. Unless you're paying CASH for your car, why should you complain about paying $1 more per month to help a man feed his family?
Unless perhaps your only motive is to get as much as you can for yourself, all the time.
His comments do not consider the sales person at all. I have worked for almost 7 years now and have found MANY of the "buyer beware" myths to be untrue.
1) The sales person is just trying to make a living, feed his family, etc. -- without the salesman, you wouldn't be able to get the car. Don't insinuate that just because a man is trying to make a profit that he's a scam artist. The salesman's commission is not on the total cost of the car, its on the commissionable gross. Total Price - Dealer Cost = Commissionable Gross. Of the CG, roughly 50% is "Front-End" gross, and the other half is "Back-End". Salesman typically get 10-25% of Front-End gross... which is anywhere from $100 - $300 on most cars. Stop grinding the guy for a few bucks.
2) Do you realize what the average commission is on a new car? Do you even know how much paper work *is* involved on the salesperson's side alone? The average comission is $100-$200... and for that you have to consider after the sale needs as well.
3) How much do you value the car you're buying to begin with? Some customers aren't happy no matter how much they pay. They call that being stingy. If you won't be happy unless you save $100, $200 or more just for principle, chances are you're stingy.
My final thought: don't be afraid to pay for a car. The happiest customers in the world are the ones who pay a little more for their car. The reality is, you're most likely financing the vehicle anyways. Unless you're paying CASH for your car, why should you complain about paying $1 more per month to help a man feed his family?
Unless perhaps your only motive is to get as much as you can for yourself, all the time.
Don't feel bad for salesmen not making enough money, they can find another job if they are not happy, one where commission isn't the only mean of income.
I don't blame salesman for trying to earn money, but you can blame us for trying to save some. I certainly don't consider them scam artist or crooks. If you overspend on a car its your own fault for getting suckered. But if you get a really low price on a car its thier fault for giving in to easy.
05-24-2005, 06:30 PM
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Joerockert:
You're on one side of the bell curve of buyers that can never be pleased. Along with the thread author.
If the battles in life you choose to fight are the ones where you haggle over pennies on the dollar, I'm sorry to say, but you fall into the category of people I refer to in my above analysis.
It's typical to see just how greedy, scarcity-minded people are the ones who are fueling the fires that we deal with when buying cars. Joe's philosophy: rip them off as they rip me off.
I guess that does have merit, if my world were as warped as yours.
You're on one side of the bell curve of buyers that can never be pleased. Along with the thread author.
If the battles in life you choose to fight are the ones where you haggle over pennies on the dollar, I'm sorry to say, but you fall into the category of people I refer to in my above analysis.
It's typical to see just how greedy, scarcity-minded people are the ones who are fueling the fires that we deal with when buying cars. Joe's philosophy: rip them off as they rip me off.
I guess that does have merit, if my world were as warped as yours.
05-24-2005, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tekn0mage
Joerockert:
You're on one side of the bell curve of buyers that can never be pleased. Along with the thread author.
If the battles in life you choose to fight are the ones where you haggle over pennies on the dollar, I'm sorry to say, but you fall into the category of people I refer to in my above analysis.
It's typical to see just how greedy, scarcity-minded people are the ones who are fueling the fires that we deal with when buying cars. Joe's philosophy: rip them off as they rip me off.
I guess that does have merit, if my world were as warped as yours.
You're on one side of the bell curve of buyers that can never be pleased. Along with the thread author.
If the battles in life you choose to fight are the ones where you haggle over pennies on the dollar, I'm sorry to say, but you fall into the category of people I refer to in my above analysis.
It's typical to see just how greedy, scarcity-minded people are the ones who are fueling the fires that we deal with when buying cars. Joe's philosophy: rip them off as they rip me off.
I guess that does have merit, if my world were as warped as yours.
So explain to me how (in my case with my TSX) gettin $2,000 off MSRP equates to "pennies on the dollar"?
Im sure I would have felt so much better had I paid that 2K more
This has nothing to do with greed. I work hard for my money (well, not really
), why would I want to piss it away if I dont have to? If haggling for a car is so bad, then why do dealerships do it? Its called competition, and anytime someone spends thousands of dollars on anything, you should know that your getting the best deal possible. Thats all...I dont buy The sob stories of sales guys not getting paid. Its the profession they chose, and like all professions, you have to take the bad with the good...So then tell me tekn0mage, are you such a saint that you've never negotiated a price on anything in your life?
05-24-2005, 07:56 PM
#20
I agree with the "stingy" people on here. When's the last time you bought your wife, kid, mother a $300 present? Probably been a while. I always pay as little as I can and then forget about it. I think I got a fair but not the greatest deal in the world on my TSX but at the time I was negotiating, I definitely tried to pay as little as I can without worrying about the salesperson. He's doing his job as some of you mentioned (trying to make a sale and at the highest price I'm willing to pay), and I was doing my job as an educated consumer (trying to get the lowest price for the product I want). Believe me, I worked in sales and I know all the little stupid tricks my salesperson tried to pull on me including outright lies about the product (either ignorant or just a lying salesperson or both), all the little financing tricks (how much do you want to pay a month bs), and stall tactics (the car is in the port, just put a deposit and I'll call you when it comes in).
I told him to call ME when the car came in. Since I knew it was a much desired 6M Navi (hard to find in SoCal) in the color that I wanted so I was willing to pay enough to have the dealer sell to me since I knew they would be able to sell to someone else in a few days. They ALWAYS start at a high price and make you bring it down. Believe me, I negotiate on million dollar buildings every day and its about the give point that everyone has. And you've just got to know where that point is for the dealer and it may be different for each car since each one has different issues (color, how long it's been sitting on lot, if they have multiple of the same one, if it's ordered vs. on the lot, time of month, if that salesperson REALLY needs to make a sale or not eat, etc.). I enjoy negotiating and don't feel a bit bad about getting an extra $5 off my car.
I told him to call ME when the car came in. Since I knew it was a much desired 6M Navi (hard to find in SoCal) in the color that I wanted so I was willing to pay enough to have the dealer sell to me since I knew they would be able to sell to someone else in a few days. They ALWAYS start at a high price and make you bring it down. Believe me, I negotiate on million dollar buildings every day and its about the give point that everyone has. And you've just got to know where that point is for the dealer and it may be different for each car since each one has different issues (color, how long it's been sitting on lot, if they have multiple of the same one, if it's ordered vs. on the lot, time of month, if that salesperson REALLY needs to make a sale or not eat, etc.). I enjoy negotiating and don't feel a bit bad about getting an extra $5 off my car.
05-24-2005, 08:46 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by 1killercls
Brad...you are a tad cynical....Who FUCKED you over???
There are not that many dealers like that around anymore....
A good safegaurd..."Buyer Beware" do your homework and cover your ass...and you won't get screwed like Brad did.
There are not that many dealers like that around anymore....
A good safegaurd..."Buyer Beware" do your homework and cover your ass...and you won't get screwed like Brad did.
I think Brad is just trying to help out fellow Azine members that are interested in buying a car & telling them to try to avoid these dealer tricks!
05-24-2005, 11:38 PM
#22
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True. My parents and my friend both got below MSRP, only to get a bunch of fees tacked on to it.
What sucks: My parents bought a new Sienna, and were all excited and told me they got it under MSRP, but when I looked at the final price there was like a couple grand of fees; in essence, they didn't really get a good deal, only a decent deal with DVD and some other stuff bundled in.
The ideal situation is when your current car still runs and you have a 6 month period to car shop. However, if your car's broke and you need a car right away, then you will feel desparate. If at all possible, wait until the year after the 1st model year, so there'll be less demand in the market and you won't have as much trouble finding your car, thus lessening the chance of you paying too much for it.
What sucks: My parents bought a new Sienna, and were all excited and told me they got it under MSRP, but when I looked at the final price there was like a couple grand of fees; in essence, they didn't really get a good deal, only a decent deal with DVD and some other stuff bundled in.
The ideal situation is when your current car still runs and you have a 6 month period to car shop. However, if your car's broke and you need a car right away, then you will feel desparate. If at all possible, wait until the year after the 1st model year, so there'll be less demand in the market and you won't have as much trouble finding your car, thus lessening the chance of you paying too much for it.
05-25-2005, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by KingV
I got taken at Acura of Mobile on the damn dealer extortion fees.
Given all of that, I wasn't too disappointed, but I had to haggle for an hour at least. In the end, I essentially said, "Why buy from you when I can fly to GA and get it for cheaper?" Their response was, "Go to GA then, have a nice day." Very prickish salespeople but since they are the only dealership within xx miles (pensacola?), we really don't have much of a selection.
I paid around $500 off MSRP, however, I got exactly what my private party price was on my trade-in, so I feel that I made out a little. Especially since it was the start of the 05 model year.
05-25-2005, 09:12 AM
#24
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i went with my ex to go buy her solara.. they tried to add that charge on there. I told him no.. he insisted all the advertisement charge and shit....i told him..he will not have my business that day, you pay for your own advertisement for ME to come in. NOT me come in to pay for your advertisement. I told him then ill just spend few bucks of gas and drive down to another dealer right now where they wont charge me that fee if i go...how stupid.. i shouldnt have. but got the car from this place anyway cause of distance.. at least without that stupid fee..
05-26-2005, 12:20 AM
#25
Drifting
Originally Posted by Brad
Dealer Extortion Fees (DEF) typically happen when you are ready to pick up your car, and the salesperson is writing up the sales contract, and you're only minutes away from getting the keys to your new car. The dealer then springs the DEF under different GUISES, but it's all the same. Sometimes the dealer calls it a Dealer Association Fee, a Preparation Fee, or an Advertisement Fee. They want to add anywhere from a few hundred to several hundred dollars to your sales contract.
The salesperson makes a statement by saying that the DEF is REQUIRED. There's nothing legally required about including the DEFs, however. By the same token, there's nothing illegal about it. It's a combination of extortion and a negotiating ploy. Yes, long after you had thought that you had already negotiated a deal, the dealer continues playing games.
DEFs are pure profit to the dealer, other than the tremendous cost of the pen ink that added the DEF to the contract. The effect of the DEF is to fully or partially negate the good deal that you had thought you had gotten. Even worse, is when the dealer refuses to negotiate below MSRP AND the dealer adds the DEF to the contract. It's adding insult to injury. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Other DEF-like tactics are to try a hard sell on extended warranties to you. A customer's "no" isn't "no" until they ask you five times and you say "no" five times. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Then they try to scare you into buying undercoating that your car does not need. Some added-on undercoating can trap moisture or block moisture drainage and cause more harm than good. In all likelihood, your car was properly designed and built and does not require any special undercoating. Some dealers install it regardless and insist that you have to pay for it, at a tremendous mark-up. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Other scams include mandated dealer-installed accessories.
The most blatant DEF is the add-on tag to the legally required computer printed MSRP that the manufacturer provides. These are two TOTALLY separate documents. Some add-on tags simply say "dealer markup". It call it toilet paper with very expensive ink.
Dealers that employ any of the preceding tactics of extortion, misinformation, pressure, duress, or "smoked mirror requirements" do not deserve your business. It's all very expensive ink from a very cheap ballpoint pen.
The salesperson makes a statement by saying that the DEF is REQUIRED. There's nothing legally required about including the DEFs, however. By the same token, there's nothing illegal about it. It's a combination of extortion and a negotiating ploy. Yes, long after you had thought that you had already negotiated a deal, the dealer continues playing games.
DEFs are pure profit to the dealer, other than the tremendous cost of the pen ink that added the DEF to the contract. The effect of the DEF is to fully or partially negate the good deal that you had thought you had gotten. Even worse, is when the dealer refuses to negotiate below MSRP AND the dealer adds the DEF to the contract. It's adding insult to injury. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Other DEF-like tactics are to try a hard sell on extended warranties to you. A customer's "no" isn't "no" until they ask you five times and you say "no" five times. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Then they try to scare you into buying undercoating that your car does not need. Some added-on undercoating can trap moisture or block moisture drainage and cause more harm than good. In all likelihood, your car was properly designed and built and does not require any special undercoating. Some dealers install it regardless and insist that you have to pay for it, at a tremendous mark-up. It puts some people under pressure or even duress.
Other scams include mandated dealer-installed accessories.
The most blatant DEF is the add-on tag to the legally required computer printed MSRP that the manufacturer provides. These are two TOTALLY separate documents. Some add-on tags simply say "dealer markup". It call it toilet paper with very expensive ink.
Dealers that employ any of the preceding tactics of extortion, misinformation, pressure, duress, or "smoked mirror requirements" do not deserve your business. It's all very expensive ink from a very cheap ballpoint pen.
Ok...
So in my case what would you have done?
In Atlanta, iv'e called all of the dealers. They all are selling at close to MSRP. Even when i walked in ready to buy. The best deal at the time was barely $300 off MSRP. This went on for weeks after visiting all dealers around Atlant aand even towards the end of the month.
I finally got a little group buy together and one dealer was willing to come off. I finally got it for $28000.
When taxes and everything came out to $30,100. i asked to be at $30,000. They even refused that.
What would you have done in my case about the $350 doc fee? They wouldn't even take $100 off, why would they have come off of the doc fee?
05-26-2005, 01:59 AM
#26
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Originally Posted by Alin10123
Ok...
So in my case what would you have done?
In Atlanta, iv'e called all of the dealers. They all are selling at close to MSRP. Even when i walked in ready to buy. The best deal at the time was barely $300 off MSRP. This went on for weeks after visiting all dealers around Atlant aand even towards the end of the month.
I finally got a little group buy together and one dealer was willing to come off. I finally got it for $28000.
When taxes and everything came out to $30,100. i asked to be at $30,000. They even refused that.
What would you have done in my case about the $350 doc fee? They wouldn't even take $100 off, why would they have come off of the doc fee?
So in my case what would you have done?
In Atlanta, iv'e called all of the dealers. They all are selling at close to MSRP. Even when i walked in ready to buy. The best deal at the time was barely $300 off MSRP. This went on for weeks after visiting all dealers around Atlant aand even towards the end of the month.
I finally got a little group buy together and one dealer was willing to come off. I finally got it for $28000.
When taxes and everything came out to $30,100. i asked to be at $30,000. They even refused that.
What would you have done in my case about the $350 doc fee? They wouldn't even take $100 off, why would they have come off of the doc fee?
05-29-2005, 12:09 AM
#27
White and Nerdy
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The point for me is that once the price is agreed upon, thats the deal. Adding fees and other such baloney should negate the deal. If a salesman is not comfortable with the price, then he/she should not have agreed upon it. My advice is to walk out if things get fishy, and find another dealer.
The first Acura dealership I went to was very stingy on price (not even close to MSRP). Eventually, however, we agreed upon a price (I wasn't bananas about the price, but I wanted the car). I then went to arrange the financing, telling the salesman that I would be back that afternoon, and he agreed to meet me and close the deal. I came back three hours later with the financing in order, and the salesman told me the price was over $1,000 more than what we agreed upon. I immediately walked out.
I traveled to the next closest dealership, about an hour away in the next state. Was treated very well, and bought my car there.
I must not be the only one in my area to have had this experience, as I have seen a few other Acuras from the "one hour away" dealership I bought my TSX from around here. The local dealership is a "mega" dealership (about 10 nameplates, from various GM to Toyota and Honda). In my experience with such "mega" dealerships, they are so big, that they don't give a rats ass about their customers, because they own nearly all the nameplates and are basically the only dealership that is within reasonable driving distance. The dealer I did buy my car from is rather small, but treated me extremely well. Sadly, however, I am seeing more and more of these "mega dealers" cropping up.
The first Acura dealership I went to was very stingy on price (not even close to MSRP). Eventually, however, we agreed upon a price (I wasn't bananas about the price, but I wanted the car). I then went to arrange the financing, telling the salesman that I would be back that afternoon, and he agreed to meet me and close the deal. I came back three hours later with the financing in order, and the salesman told me the price was over $1,000 more than what we agreed upon. I immediately walked out.
I traveled to the next closest dealership, about an hour away in the next state. Was treated very well, and bought my car there.
I must not be the only one in my area to have had this experience, as I have seen a few other Acuras from the "one hour away" dealership I bought my TSX from around here. The local dealership is a "mega" dealership (about 10 nameplates, from various GM to Toyota and Honda). In my experience with such "mega" dealerships, they are so big, that they don't give a rats ass about their customers, because they own nearly all the nameplates and are basically the only dealership that is within reasonable driving distance. The dealer I did buy my car from is rather small, but treated me extremely well. Sadly, however, I am seeing more and more of these "mega dealers" cropping up.
05-29-2005, 02:26 AM
#28
I was lucky to deal with a very nice salesperson.
XXXXXXXXX, from Acura Markham (Ontario, Canada), was very nice to me and not pushy at all. Once I first arrived to the dealership, she asked me if I wanted to go for a test drive, before even giving me her sales pitch. Now, I'm not sure whether this is the new sales tactic for Acura Markham or Acura in general, but I was pleasantly surprised.
I highly recommend her, she was very helpful and did not seem to play the b/s games I'd read and heard about. She told me the total price, and asked me to think about it and come back later if I really wanted it so that we could negotiate on a price. After knowing what I wanted, XXXXXXXXXX also had advised me beforehand on whether the script she was about to tell me was dealer policy, and to just ignore what she was saying.
All in all, very straightforward and was very easy doing business with. I think she wanted the referrals more than the actual dollar amount on her commission.
XXXXXXXXX, from Acura Markham (Ontario, Canada), was very nice to me and not pushy at all. Once I first arrived to the dealership, she asked me if I wanted to go for a test drive, before even giving me her sales pitch. Now, I'm not sure whether this is the new sales tactic for Acura Markham or Acura in general, but I was pleasantly surprised.
I highly recommend her, she was very helpful and did not seem to play the b/s games I'd read and heard about. She told me the total price, and asked me to think about it and come back later if I really wanted it so that we could negotiate on a price. After knowing what I wanted, XXXXXXXXXX also had advised me beforehand on whether the script she was about to tell me was dealer policy, and to just ignore what she was saying.
All in all, very straightforward and was very easy doing business with. I think she wanted the referrals more than the actual dollar amount on her commission.
05-29-2005, 02:42 AM
#29
Drifting
Originally Posted by Godwhacker
The point for me is that once the price is agreed upon, thats the deal. Adding fees and other such baloney should negate the deal. If a salesman is not comfortable with the price, then he/she should not have agreed upon it. My advice is to walk out if things get fishy, and find another dealer.
The first Acura dealership I went to was very stingy on price (not even close to MSRP). Eventually, however, we agreed upon a price (I wasn't bananas about the price, but I wanted the car). I then went to arrange the financing, telling the salesman that I would be back that afternoon, and he agreed to meet me and close the deal. I came back three hours later with the financing in order, and the salesman told me the price was over $1,000 more than what we agreed upon. I immediately walked out.
I traveled to the next closest dealership, about an hour away in the next state. Was treated very well, and bought my car there.
I must not be the only one in my area to have had this experience, as I have seen a few other Acuras from the "one hour away" dealership I bought my TSX from around here. The local dealership is a "mega" dealership (about 10 nameplates, from various GM to Toyota and Honda). In my experience with such "mega" dealerships, they are so big, that they don't give a rats ass about their customers, because they own nearly all the nameplates and are basically the only dealership that is within reasonable driving distance. The dealer I did buy my car from is rather small, but treated me extremely well. Sadly, however, I am seeing more and more of these "mega dealers" cropping up.
The first Acura dealership I went to was very stingy on price (not even close to MSRP). Eventually, however, we agreed upon a price (I wasn't bananas about the price, but I wanted the car). I then went to arrange the financing, telling the salesman that I would be back that afternoon, and he agreed to meet me and close the deal. I came back three hours later with the financing in order, and the salesman told me the price was over $1,000 more than what we agreed upon. I immediately walked out.
I traveled to the next closest dealership, about an hour away in the next state. Was treated very well, and bought my car there.
I must not be the only one in my area to have had this experience, as I have seen a few other Acuras from the "one hour away" dealership I bought my TSX from around here. The local dealership is a "mega" dealership (about 10 nameplates, from various GM to Toyota and Honda). In my experience with such "mega" dealerships, they are so big, that they don't give a rats ass about their customers, because they own nearly all the nameplates and are basically the only dealership that is within reasonable driving distance. The dealer I did buy my car from is rather small, but treated me extremely well. Sadly, however, I am seeing more and more of these "mega dealers" cropping up.
This is exactly why when i negotiate. I always negotiate "drive off" pricing. Never negotiate the price alone for the car. You know that there are always fees being tacked onto the price. It'll never be just the car and tax.
05-30-2005, 12:06 AM
#30
White and Nerdy
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Good point. But in my case, we didn't even get to the fees and "add ons". He wanted to charge my about $1,000 more for just the price alone.
I think he was mad that I didn't go with Acura's financing program (which I hear very often dealers and salesmen get extra money for). BTW, another bit of advice is that, unless they are running a good deal for financing, you are more often better off financing with someone other that the dealership's financing institution. When I bought my TSX, the dealer was offering around 5%...I got a little over 3% via Costco's program.
I think he was mad that I didn't go with Acura's financing program (which I hear very often dealers and salesmen get extra money for). BTW, another bit of advice is that, unless they are running a good deal for financing, you are more often better off financing with someone other that the dealership's financing institution. When I bought my TSX, the dealer was offering around 5%...I got a little over 3% via Costco's program.
05-30-2005, 10:02 AM
#31
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One way to avoid the whole dealer hassle and rip-off is to use an auto broker. This is the way I bought my car (6MT, Nav) in SoCal. I only went to the dealer to test drive. I told the broker what I wanted, he spent some time looking at inventory lists for the state of California trying to locate the car I wanted, and got it for me for a good price after about two weeks. When the car was located, he flatbedded it to my house and I signed the papers. Total broker commission was $150, but I saved tons of time and didn't have to deal with the dealer at all. I knew all the costs up front before the deal was closed.
This is quite different from having to spend time with a salesman and then the F&I guy at the dealership.
The broker does not have a vested interest in getting a high price; he is working for YOU on a flat rate; he wants to get the best deal he can for you so you'll come back and maybe tell your friends.
My broker put in a lot of work to locate the car I wanted (I talked to him about every other day on the phone during the deal), so I asked him how he can make any money charging $150 flat. He said for every car like a TSX that he has to work hard for, there are a dozen Camrys or Accords that he simply makes one phone call and closes the deal. So most sales are just a phone call or two for him.
Anyway, if you are sick of salesman and dealers, you might try an autobroker. My experience was really good. (BTW, I used to do some consulting for Lexus, so I know how the car biz works.)
This is quite different from having to spend time with a salesman and then the F&I guy at the dealership.
The broker does not have a vested interest in getting a high price; he is working for YOU on a flat rate; he wants to get the best deal he can for you so you'll come back and maybe tell your friends.
My broker put in a lot of work to locate the car I wanted (I talked to him about every other day on the phone during the deal), so I asked him how he can make any money charging $150 flat. He said for every car like a TSX that he has to work hard for, there are a dozen Camrys or Accords that he simply makes one phone call and closes the deal. So most sales are just a phone call or two for him.
Anyway, if you are sick of salesman and dealers, you might try an autobroker. My experience was really good. (BTW, I used to do some consulting for Lexus, so I know how the car biz works.)
05-30-2005, 12:30 PM
#33
Needs more Lemon Pledge
My experience with auto brokers has been that they generally will get you a vehicle for about $500 over invioce, and charge (in my area) $500 for the service. So, if you want to know that all you overpaid was $1000, go for it.
Some people would consider that a good deal, especially to avoid the hassle of negotiating, etc...
Personally, I would rather save the thousand bucks and do the work myself, but I totally understand why some people would go the route of the broker.
Some people would consider that a good deal, especially to avoid the hassle of negotiating, etc...
Personally, I would rather save the thousand bucks and do the work myself, but I totally understand why some people would go the route of the broker.
06-01-2005, 04:53 PM
#34
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The easiest way to avoid surprise add-ons is to only negotiate on final "out-the-door" price including all fees, and make that clear from the start. At the end of the day, there is only one number that counts - your total cost. So only negotiate on that.
Of course the finance guy will still try to hit you up for more useless extras, but at that point you already have a deal, so all you have to do is keep saying "No" until he stops talking.
Of course the finance guy will still try to hit you up for more useless extras, but at that point you already have a deal, so all you have to do is keep saying "No" until he stops talking.
09-19-2006, 11:28 PM
#35
Originally Posted by tekn0mage
I just reviewed the comments posted by Brad, and have some difficulty with them.
His comments do not consider the sales person at all. I have worked for almost 7 years now and have found MANY of the "buyer beware" myths to be untrue.
1) The sales person is just trying to make a living, feed his family, etc. -- without the salesman, you wouldn't be able to get the car. Don't insinuate that just because a man is trying to make a profit that he's a scam artist. The salesman's commission is not on the total cost of the car, its on the commissionable gross. Total Price - Dealer Cost = Commissionable Gross. Of the CG, roughly 50% is "Front-End" gross, and the other half is "Back-End". Salesman typically get 10-25% of Front-End gross... which is anywhere from $100 - $300 on most cars. Stop grinding the guy for a few bucks.
2) Do you realize what the average commission is on a new car? Do you even know how much paper work *is* involved on the salesperson's side alone? The average comission is $100-$200... and for that you have to consider after the sale needs as well.
3) How much do you value the car you're buying to begin with? Some customers aren't happy no matter how much they pay. They call that being stingy. If you won't be happy unless you save $100, $200 or more just for principle, chances are you're stingy.
My final thought: don't be afraid to pay for a car. The happiest customers in the world are the ones who pay a little more for their car. The reality is, you're most likely financing the vehicle anyways. Unless you're paying CASH for your car, why should you complain about paying $1 more per month to help a man feed his family?
Unless perhaps your only motive is to get as much as you can for yourself, all the time.
His comments do not consider the sales person at all. I have worked for almost 7 years now and have found MANY of the "buyer beware" myths to be untrue.
1) The sales person is just trying to make a living, feed his family, etc. -- without the salesman, you wouldn't be able to get the car. Don't insinuate that just because a man is trying to make a profit that he's a scam artist. The salesman's commission is not on the total cost of the car, its on the commissionable gross. Total Price - Dealer Cost = Commissionable Gross. Of the CG, roughly 50% is "Front-End" gross, and the other half is "Back-End". Salesman typically get 10-25% of Front-End gross... which is anywhere from $100 - $300 on most cars. Stop grinding the guy for a few bucks.
2) Do you realize what the average commission is on a new car? Do you even know how much paper work *is* involved on the salesperson's side alone? The average comission is $100-$200... and for that you have to consider after the sale needs as well.
3) How much do you value the car you're buying to begin with? Some customers aren't happy no matter how much they pay. They call that being stingy. If you won't be happy unless you save $100, $200 or more just for principle, chances are you're stingy.
My final thought: don't be afraid to pay for a car. The happiest customers in the world are the ones who pay a little more for their car. The reality is, you're most likely financing the vehicle anyways. Unless you're paying CASH for your car, why should you complain about paying $1 more per month to help a man feed his family?
Unless perhaps your only motive is to get as much as you can for yourself, all the time.
I could give a rats ass about a salespersons family or his income. Buying a car is not welfare, its not a public service. I owe a salesperson nothing more than to treat him with a degree of respect in order to get a fair deal. Period. Its the second largest transaction people make next to their homes.
I got a dissertation from my salesperson about their air conditioning fees (30 ft high ceilings in the Las Vegas Dealership) and the typical "your stealing from my babies mouths" speech.
As I sat and waited for my salesperson to give me one jinxed deal after another, I was listening to another salesperson working a couple in the next cubicle. They tried, in vein, to talk the salesperson out of the $1200 "desert protection" package.
After I told the salesperson when I arrived that I would work from the invoice price up, not from the sticker price down, he still tried, twice, to work the sticker. In the end, I payed a fair 3% over the invoice price + taxes. Out the door.
Did I steal from his baby! You bet I did. Am I stingy? Yes!
09-19-2006, 11:50 PM
#37
Originally Posted by Alin10123
Ok...
So in my case what would you have done?
In Atlanta, iv'e called all of the dealers. They all are selling at close to MSRP. Even when i walked in ready to buy. The best deal at the time was barely $300 off MSRP. This went on for weeks after visiting all dealers around Atlant aand even towards the end of the month.
I finally got a little group buy together and one dealer was willing to come off. I finally got it for $28000.
When taxes and everything came out to $30,100. i asked to be at $30,000. They even refused that.
What would you have done in my case about the $350 doc fee? They wouldn't even take $100 off, why would they have come off of the doc fee?
So in my case what would you have done?
In Atlanta, iv'e called all of the dealers. They all are selling at close to MSRP. Even when i walked in ready to buy. The best deal at the time was barely $300 off MSRP. This went on for weeks after visiting all dealers around Atlant aand even towards the end of the month.
I finally got a little group buy together and one dealer was willing to come off. I finally got it for $28000.
When taxes and everything came out to $30,100. i asked to be at $30,000. They even refused that.
What would you have done in my case about the $350 doc fee? They wouldn't even take $100 off, why would they have come off of the doc fee?
I had already negotiated my deal of 3% over invoice, but I explained to him that was the price I was willing to pay out the door. He was nice and gave me an additional 600 for my trade. I didnt even have to fight him.
The lesson I learned is to not only make a great deal on the car (3% over invoice is a fair price to pay for any vehicle) but to watch for the spoilers in the deal after the fact. The dealer played hardball at first and it was a lot of fun, because I knew I would win if I were persistant or willing to walk away.
It is particuarly challenging to make a deal on an Acura especially if there is only one dealership in the area, or in my case, the entire state of Nevada. Acuras, BMW's etc are "want" items, not "need" items and they are priced accordingly.
09-20-2006, 12:59 AM
#38
'05 TSX 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2006
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When i picked up the tsx there was a vin etching fee of $300 or more on the closing statement. I refused to pay it, and they had to recalculate and print the whole thing. The vin numbers are etched on my glass, i guess they are just not registered in whatever database, looks to be some third party scam.
Was warned of the scam by vw dealer! I bet 90% of buyers fall for it.
Was warned of the scam by vw dealer! I bet 90% of buyers fall for it.
09-20-2006, 08:07 AM
#39
Recovering SUV Addict...
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Age: 46
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VIN Etching is useless...so if your car is stolen and parted out, they can trace your glass. WOO HOO! My Insurance agent pretty much laughed at that.
At the end of the day, I think that we're in the minority being so hard nosed on auto negotiations. Most people just go in, say "here's what I want" get a bone thrown to them, and then go for the deal. Some people are basically afraid of negotiating. I walked from a BMW dealer that wouldn't move off an insanely overpriced used 330xi. For every 5 people that I talk to about that, 3 say they would have felt bad leaving. Why? You don't owe them anything, they don't owe you anything. It's all business, and a lot of people have problems with that. I think most people get 'fair' deals on cars. Some people are able to get decent deals, some aren't, and some get ripped. Acknowledge, accept, learn and move on.
I certainly didn't get the best deal on my TSX, but the fact is that there are only 2 dealers in western PA in resonable distance, and only one had the car I wanted, and the other one that had my second choice wouldn't negotiate on the car. I had some wiggle room, got out the door around $28k with the extended warranty and some extras, and that was it. Very little hassle, except for being low-balled at first on my trade in.
Incidently, they took my trade in ('03 trailblazer) to the auto auction, and a used car lot 1000 ft from my house ended up with it (and I traded it at a dealer 62 miles away). I got $12600 for it, and the used dealer had it at $13600. I assume the dealership made $500, and this guy is making $500. Can't complain...good for them. I got what I wanted out of it, not sure they got what they wanted.
At the end of the day, I think that we're in the minority being so hard nosed on auto negotiations. Most people just go in, say "here's what I want" get a bone thrown to them, and then go for the deal. Some people are basically afraid of negotiating. I walked from a BMW dealer that wouldn't move off an insanely overpriced used 330xi. For every 5 people that I talk to about that, 3 say they would have felt bad leaving. Why? You don't owe them anything, they don't owe you anything. It's all business, and a lot of people have problems with that. I think most people get 'fair' deals on cars. Some people are able to get decent deals, some aren't, and some get ripped. Acknowledge, accept, learn and move on.
I certainly didn't get the best deal on my TSX, but the fact is that there are only 2 dealers in western PA in resonable distance, and only one had the car I wanted, and the other one that had my second choice wouldn't negotiate on the car. I had some wiggle room, got out the door around $28k with the extended warranty and some extras, and that was it. Very little hassle, except for being low-balled at first on my trade in.
Incidently, they took my trade in ('03 trailblazer) to the auto auction, and a used car lot 1000 ft from my house ended up with it (and I traded it at a dealer 62 miles away). I got $12600 for it, and the used dealer had it at $13600. I assume the dealership made $500, and this guy is making $500. Can't complain...good for them. I got what I wanted out of it, not sure they got what they wanted.
09-20-2006, 11:41 AM
#40
Instructor
Join Date: Aug 2006
Age: 43
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The way I do it is to just talk the OTD (out the door) prices. Get your own financing elsewhere before hand, I used eloan, then just email all the dealers asking for their best OTD price. The good thing about this method is that it factors in the tax as well. I'm in Los Angeles where the tax is 8.25% but a 30 min drive gets you to OC where its like 7.75 or something you can get a difference of a couple hundred bucks not accounted if you just compare base prices. Plus this way you don't have to worry about extra fees they try to add. I could care less if they add a $100 or $1000 fee as long as I'm getting the best OTD price.