Junkster

So channel surfing last night after watching Antoine Walker back in Beantown (Nuggets won baby!), I saw that this documentary was on, so I figured what the hay...

I missed the first ten minutes of the hour, but from what I caught, it was focusing on the Japanese import invasion of the US market, with the main pivot being the development and introduction of the Titan and the new F150. It was interesting to hear about what many experts thought about the car market in general, as well as the Titan launch. They also talked about what is an "American" car, since many importers build cars in the US now. If you can catch this show, do so, very fun and informative. There is this guy in the show who is a psychologist who deals with cars... kinda wacko and maybe racist...

Anyways, the thing that shocked me the most was the difference between the people involved at Ford and Nissan, especially the upper level honchos...

One guy from Ford says, and I'm paraphrasing all things here...
"Nissan is coming into a very competitive market in the full size pick ups, and they better watch out, because their going to find out that this is our market"

"The Japanese have great productivity, but we are catching up by learning from Mazda about their way of doing things. We are not far behind in producing equal or better products."

First of all, the first statement is the kind of statement that got Ford to lose out in the family sedan market!! Did they not learn their lesson on being complacent in their dominance?

Secondly, Mazda?! When did Mazda become a quality leader in production? Seriously, this dude at Ford needs to go.

The other Ford guys were also pretty defensive as well, with the designer of the F150 being the most sensible...

"I think the Titan design is too Japanese for the core truck market of the mid western states, in my opinion".

... which I think is pretty true, Titan looks too Japanese.

The Japanese designers and Ghosn among others were more liberal in their answer...

"The Big 3 will catch up again, the industry is a cycle and everything keeps going around."

"We are up against a very tough market where people have been loyal to their trucks for years. We have to be innovative."

The design team at Nissan actually asked regular truck users why they bought their trucks and why they didn't buy a Toyota Tundra, which I thought was a pretty good market analysis for finding out what the regular joe thought.

The journalists were pretty harsh on the US makers, one even suggesting that at least one nameplate will disappear in the next two decades.

The most fascinating thing was when they showed the debut of the two trucks at the NAIAS this year. Ford's designers were scrambling to take a look at the 160 degree openning doors of the Titan, talking to their president that they would give it a thorough look. I found new found respect for Bob Lutz, who actually went to the F150 booth and listened to their designer's information and sat in the car, commenting that their were things to learn for GM from the new F150. Lutz never seemed like he was uncomfortable with listening and learning from their competitors.

If you can catch this show, it's on Discovery Times channel.

Junkster, who usually doesn't watch auto shows on TV.

dom

"The Japanese have great productivity, but we are catching up by learning from Mazda about their way of doing things. We are not far behind in producing equal or better products."

Dilusional exec. Ford is in big trouble, if they don't pick things up they may be the company that is'nt around in the next 2 decades. We know GM ai'nt going anywhere and Chrysler is backed by MB. I wonder how much market share these American companies can lose before the realize something's wrong.

I would'nt take a Ford if they paid me to take it.

And I had respect for Bob Lutz and then I saw the new Malibu.

But some of that respect came back when he bit the bullet and started buying 3.5L's from Honda.

I hope he bites the bullet again and puts the Honda 3.5L in the new Chevy Equinox, I'll be in the market for a new SUV and a V6 will be a nessesity.

larchmont

Nice post, Junkster!

Larchmont, who has learned that when you see a long post by Junkster, all you really need to do is read the last line.

Brad

Excellent post, junkster! I would have liked to have seen the show, but I guess you are referring to a cable-only show?

From your description, the show highlights a theme that repeated itself over and over and over for the past 30+ years. "Detroit" (and I mean GM, Ford, and Chryzler) has had this very unhumble attitude toward foreign competition. I had hoped that Detroit would have learned by now that mediocrity isn't good enough.

Just look at the crash tests on the new F150 Ford: a 5mph front end collision results in over $5,000 in damage to the F150.

I keep hoping that "Detroit's" head-in-the-sand" arrogance will have passed, but sadly, it looks like it hasn't at least for one company.

Detroit needs to get all of their models and factories and engineering in line for being the best. Sadly, in over 30 years since the Japanese makes really started to take hold, they clearly haven't done that, given their on-going spotty records.

briny319

I also watched the show. I think it should have been called "American Truck"

Junkster

I was thinking that too. They featured the Hummer H2 and it's sales stradegy and such during the show as well.

This was my first time watching this channel (too many channels in digital cable), is this a series, Briny? I don't know, I think I'll query the Discovery channel for more information.

Junkster, who would love to see a feature on family sedans in such a program.

Junkster

You're a clever lad, Larch. That's right, all you really need to do with most of my posts are to read the first sentence (mostly what I was thinking/doing before the event), and the last sentence (what conlclusion I've come to).

I'm a simple man, really... no really...

Junkster, who thinks Larch is smarter than the average bear.

briny319

I watch the digital discovery channels a lot, this is the first time I have seen american car so I don't think it's a series. I also visited times.discovery.com for more info and didn't find out if it is a series.

Junkster

Yea, you know that guy I was talking to you about, the car psychologist? Here he is, listen to this weirdo...Strange...

BTW, no wonder Chrysler is floundering, they got this guy working for them.

http://times.discovery.com/convergen...rt/expert.html

He makes some decent points, but some are just odd.

Junkster, who thinks psychologist should stick to consulting mentals, not car makers... and also pets, stay away from pets.

RogerPodacter

I agree, but Ford is a well established company. I would be willing to bet that they would receive assistance from good old uncle sam if they ever started to go under...

Junkster

We've seen alot of established playas go down the drain throughout business history, either through total meltdown or absorption by another.

Ford really needs to stop being steered by idiots... by which I mean the Ford family and their own little pet projects and obsessions. The GT40 is a great reminder of the great Ford heritage... yea, all it does is remind enthusiasts of how great Ford once was (in Japan, the old GT is worshiped like a greek god). Yea, bringing a retro-Mustang also reminds us that Ford USED to be a creative force in auto industry. The Focus was a great step in the right direction, but it never led to any further experimenting with other model lines. The worst is, of course, how they destroyed the Taurus line, when it had the potential to be the leader in the family sedan market for years on end.

I wish Ford would do well, because they don't have the massive corporate lockdown like GM and have more direction than Chrysler, who has no clue what they are suppose to be as a company.

Junkster, who thinks Ford and Dodge should group up.

Buff-Daddy

I have to agree with this... I can't see too many farmers tooling around in the Titan. That whole midwest truck market is pretty proud of the "Made in the USA" so I can see thier point of view on that one, but still, without the F150, Ford would be out of business.

Junkster

And, I'm Ford-biased here, the new F150 isn't a bad-looking truck at all. The GM designs look over designed, as well as the Titan. Dodge's 'huge' grill look is just getting old (that company needs a design team). If I had to, without brand loyalty, buy a full sized truck, I'd go with the F150.

I've heard that Toyota is also planning a full size launch (no, the Tundra doesn't count), which could make it really intersting in the next few years. I know most farmers in CO would say 'I wouldn't buy a truck from Nissan." while their wives and kids drive Camrys and Celicas. I think people in the farm states might not bite on a Nissan full size or Honda for that matter as well. Toyota, I think, would be able to market to the famers due to the reputation that they now have. Toyota would just have to figure out how to undercut the price of the big three, just like the Titan, which is I believe almost 2 grand under the price of the F150 (Ford just started a rebate of 2 grand to even the price).

Junkster, whose family has never owned a Big 3 car.

TSXautoXer

The Ford guy said they learned from Mazda probably because Ford owns Mazda thus make it the best place to learn "japanese productivity".

dom

damn Larch, now I can't read any of Junkster's posts because I find myself going directly to the last sentence.

Sorry Junkster.

The only Ford product I would even consider owning these days would be a F-150, I think they did a great job with that truck. And no I would'nt buy the GT. For 150 large, I'd be in a 360 Modena.

johnnym_RENAMED

Nice post (even though this is a TSX forum). I missed the TV show, but I too wonder why GM and Ford have sat idly by as their market share drops year after year. THEY JUST DON’T GET IT: They must manufacture high-quality reliable products with overall value taken as a whole, as well as to achieve performance in concert with efficiency and environmental consciousness. And they need to recognize that people don’t want to go back to the dealer to fix stupid things. How long will it take them to figure out that patriotism doesn’t sell things any longer? Ford let their family sedan (Taurus) go from a top-seller to nothing more than a rental fleet car by failing to continually improve it. Not to mention styling the second-generation model in imitation of their oval corporate logo. Now we have GM’s brand new Malibu with low-tech push-rod engines and, is it just me or is that car ugly too. Bob Lutz appears to be a first-rate car guy, and I wish him luck. But overall, the top management at GM and Ford has been responsible all these years for bringing down their formerly dominant companies. It’s not the American worker on the assembly line. Instead of whining about their competition, they need to start emulating RIGHT NOW the way Honda builds their products and runs their dealerships, or they will go to the wayside as all poorly run companies do. The Acura TSX is such a sweet car. GM and Ford are so far behind it and it is almost hopeless that they will ever catch up.

Speaking of TV shows, did anyone watch the Ken Burns PBS episode of Horatio Jackson’s first cross-country car trip back in the early 1900’s? That was terrific.

Junkster

Hey there Johnnym, welcome to our forum. Yea, if you search through most of my posts, they are pretty off topic at times. I'm surprised people put up with me so much in here.

I think the new malibu isn't a great car, although I believe it is a step in the right direction. From what I've seen, the material quality as well as the build quality is quite good in the Malibu, almost comparable to a Mitsu Galant. the design is kinda odd, but overall, I think the packaging of the car is pretty good. Not saying I would buy one or something...

I missed the Horatio Jackson one on PBS, I think I caught something about the event way back in high school. There was also a recent story similar that happened in China...

A student, who didn't want to be stuck in Beijing during the SARS scare, decided to drive her car as far from the city as possible. Two weeks later, she was all the way to Tibet!!!

Junkster, who thinks people don't watch enough PBS.

johnnym_RENAMED

That the Malibu is a step in the right direction is a good point, Junkster. But it takes GM and Ford far to long to make even baby steps, when their foreign competition continually improves product by leaps and bounds. You totally reinforce my main point by saying that you wouldn't buy a Malibu. And more and more people come to this same conclusion each year.

Our purchasing decisions are the votes that really count. That's why GM and Ford are in such a precarious position. Lets see if or when GM makes significant advances on their new car. History says that they already moved on to something else. Take my Odyssey van as a comparison: It was just about perfect when it was first released, and they couldn’t keep them on the lots. Did that stop Honda from further developing it? Nope. In the next year they gave it a 5-speed automatic, more horsepower AS WELL AS better gas mileage, and made minor tweaks like intermittent rear wipers. Did they have to make these improvements when they had a top-selling vehicle? In Honda’s way of thinking, of course they did. Unfortunately, GM and Ford don’t think this way, hence their ultimate downfall.

RSLand

This kind of reminds me of an interview I saw about 13 or 14 years ago on one of the morning TV shows. Execs from Mercedes, Volvo and BMW were being asked if they thought that the Japanese could compete in the luxury market with the upcoming Lexus and Acura brands. These pompous jerks agreed unanimously that the Japanese didn't stand a chance. Japan could never be taken seriously as manufacturers of luxury cars. I wonder who these crystal ball experts are working for now.

larchmont

Back then, that was just about what I thought too. Actually, you have to go back further than that, like 17 years ago, when "Acura" first came out. I thought it was absurd -- Who's ever gonna take "Honda" seriously as a "luxury car"? Who's gonna pay $20K for a Honda? (Yeah, those were the numbers then.)

What turned it for me was, first of all, seeing the great reviews that the Legend was getting, and then especially, test driving the car. I got an '88, and it was great, and for a long time too. "Japanese" has come a long way in prestige since then. But I guess Acura hasn't kept pace in this regard. Would you believe, I didn't really realize that until I started reading this site (although I got some drift of it when I was buying my '03 TL-S and my sister was like, "Oh, no!).

I've thought of Japanese cars, including Acura, as high prestige for the last 16 years.

kiteboy

For those who haven't read it, The Machine That Changed the World is a great book that describes the issues raised in this thread. It was written over ten years ago. GM and Ford still don't get it.

I think part of the problem is that GM and Ford concentrate too much on their high end. Corvette, XLR, CTS, LS, GT40 are all pretty decent cars, but GM couldn't be bothered to redesign the Cavalier / Sunfire after 11 years and Ford has a gift of taking perfrectly good European cars and wrecking them on the way to North America (Mondeo, Focus).

In the meantime, the Japanese can build top-quality Civics, Accords, Camrys, Corollas, Altimas, Maximas, TL, EL, Odysseys, Pilots, MDX, RX330, with a North American workforce. Staggering.

johnnym_RENAMED

It even goes back more than that, to about 30 years ago when Honda and Toyota brought their Civic and Corona to the American market. There's a new book (just released but I haven't read it yet) that also outlines the abundant blunders by Ford and GM. It specifically documents how, for instance, Ford let the top-selling Taurus collapse by ignoring it and concentrating instead on SUVs (Stupid Utility Vehicles). I don’t understand how their competition manages to continually improve all of their model ranges, while GM and Ford -- who have a great deal more resources -- can barely concentrate on one line at a time.

By this time, why haven’t GM and Ford designed and built high-tech engines for ALL of their cars? Why, for example, is it possible that Nissan can totally refresh their entire lineup in a relatively short number of years and bring out a viable large pickup truck at the same time? The answer, again, is at GM and Ford’s incompetent top management. Another area where they are way behind is hybrid engine technology. How long did it take Toyota to put out their second-generation Prius? By all accounts they turned it into a mainstream car in a few short years.

By now, the new Malibu should have been our Accord. The Corvair Monza and Corsa from the 60’s should have been our Boxter. The Taurus SHO and Olds Aurora should have been our 5-Series. And the Pontiac GTO, Grand Am and Grand Prix should have been our TSX and TL.

kiteboy

I think it has to do with the short-term bottom line. Being able to sell body on frame pickup with a cap on it and 2nd and 3rd row seating as a $40k Explorer has _got_ to be appealing. There's a silly amount of profit and volumes in SUV's, which sadly, is supported by a willing NA public that can get gas dirt cheap.

Similarly, why bother spending billions on redesigning cars and engines when you can push out the same cr^p year after year and move it with 0% financing? The design and tooling costs were long since paid for, and it's all gravy at this point.

Sadly, it does nothing for long term brand equity. In the compact segment, they are seen as competeing with the Koreans (and losing). Many other segments too. It _will_ catch up to them; their size has given them a 30-year grace period. But now Chryco is Daimler and Toyota is about to take over #2.

kiteboy

Nissan, to their credit, got an impressive number of vehicles out of the FM and VQ platforms.

Altima, Max, Murano, FX, G35, Skyline, Quest...

johnnym_RENAMED

Kiteboy's got it right. Short-term thinking will kill them -- and many other companies, of course -- in the long run. Meanwhile, the top execs get paid lavishly for steering a steady collapse.