MrChad

That was the intent of my post.
In addition, in plain english.

the Accord Euro-R edition is the highest performance version of the Accord/TSX platform. Even though it only has a tiny 2.0 liter iVTEC engine nearly identical to the RSX type-R (Integera type R japan only.) at 220hp(Euro-R) vs. 200hp(TSX). Yes torque is lower in the Euro-R but look at the redline! And the tranny is geared closer for even more shifting fun. The Euro-R is the TSX I would sell many possesion currently to own. Buy rights with the Standard Recoro seats it could deserve to be called the:

Acura TSX type-S or (Type-R) if brought over and rebagde for the US market.

Wonder why we don't get this engine choice? The header on the exhuast side is missing the pre-cat like the US-TSX and will not pass US-CAFE ULEV standards as Honda of America wants all its cars to be super clean emissions. Thus the TSX/Accord Euro-R, would likely pollute much like the old H22A powered Prelude did. Ever watch a Prelude hit VTEC and see the cloud of smoke from the tail pipe?

moda_way

take a look at my post from the "CrapSite" show you the differences. They really are very few differences and if you've followed Mr. Chad (his Accord has quite a few Acura parts on it), the god on interchangability between honda/acura, you notice that there is very little to say on the Honda vs. Acura point. Acura is a feeling, is a different warranty/service plan, and it is packaging of minor accessories to seperate it from it's fraternal twin Honda.

larchmont

The tag-team of Brad and Chad are probably sick of this persistent grilling -- but all I seek is the truth!

If it's really true that there's no difference between Euro Accord and TSX in terms of driving/riding aspects (forget bells and whistles), does that mean Odessa was wrong?

If Odessa was RIGHT, then there are significant differences -- which is all that's necessary for us delusional Santa Claus/Easter bunny dupes to be not so delusional and not such dupes.

Finally: Actually the real comparison, to see if we're delusional, is between the Acuras and Hondas that have been marketed and available in North America. It's like this: We who have believed that Acuras are different from Hondas started out with a certain image of Hondas based on what we had here in North America. Then came Acura, which was supposedly "luxury." And the question really is, have the N.A. Acuras really not been superior to the N.A. Hondas? I'm talking just about the quality of driving/riding aspects; forget leather, bells and whistles, stereo etc. etc. I'm still interested to know about the differences between Euro Accord and TSX, but the heart of the issue is this other comparison.

So, what's the answer? Have N.A. Acuras really been not at all superior to N.A. Hondas?
(In terms of driving/riding aspects only.)

Depending on the answers, I'm ready to write on the blackboard 1000 times, "It's really a Honda, It's really a Honda......"

MrChad

Dude are you afraid of your car being a Honda? Please pull the spark plug sheild on your engine and read the name.

One of the main reasons Acura was made (Lexus, Infinit too.) was that import laws at the time limited the number of Hondas that could be imported. This was before the 1-million NA Honda MFG sites (joke). So Acura was made to allow more Honda's to come into the US under a new car company banner.

Proof: Honda's are Acura's

My car a 2000 Honda Accord EX it is using -- 2002 Acura CL/TL type-S front and rear sway bars and strut tower brace. The 98-02 Acura CL, TL, and Honda Accord under the skin are the same platform and effectively the same car. Any number of parts can be interchanged. The same holds true for the 03 Accord and 03/04 TSX. Many parts can and will interchange.

Did you read Moda-way's post?
Did you click on my links above? The TSX: IS A JDM/UK ACCORD through and through. There is no Acura special assembly processes or plant. They may have a few unique parts but 9 out of 10 times these Acura's are Honda's in the rest of the world.

Ever seen a JDM Lexus? There isn't one.
The is no Acura in Japan or Europe.
Click on
www.honda.co.jp and
www.honda.co.uk and
www.honda.de
and look at the line-up. What US Acura is the Honda Legend; what US Acura is the Integra; What US Acura is the JDM Inspire?
In Japan the Inspire is More Luxury then the Accord (TSX). Boy that inspire sure looks familiar save for a part or two...hhhmmm what car is that?

MrChad

Acura is:

An Image

A Dealer network

A 4yr-50k warranty and road side assistance

Acura is not:

A car, An assembly plant, or a mfg. company.

It was a Marketing Image ment to help higher end and well optioned Hondas compete at the Luxury entry level. It is a neat trick that works really well for some peoples' perceptions.

larchmont

Chad --

As always you provided a lot of great info, but you didn't really answer the main Q's!

Not that you have to if you don't feel like it, but those Q's are still out there, and they're the ones that get to the heart of the issue.

Ozzman

Just a question for all you re-badgers. Do you put you money where your mouth is?

If a hot girl in a bar :-*(who probably doesn't know much about cars) asks you what kind of car do you drive, do you answer Acura or Honda?

I'm just trying to point out that we do live in a superficial world where most North Americans believe Acura is a higher-end manufacturer (which I agree is not totally true). I want the average person to think my car is nicer than it is. I have had both Acuras and Honda's and I must admit it feels better telling the average person I drive an Acura than saying I drive a Honda.

Also, why does Acura rate much higher than Honda in the JD Power Initial Quality survey?

http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/...ID=736&CatID=1

larchmont

About that last thing, even being the most avid Easter bunny believer on this thread, I can easily think of reasons that would have nothing to do with any superiority of Acura over Honda. Those surveys are just that -- SURVEYS. All they do is count the average number of "complaints" per car. Obviously this is susceptible to all kinds of things besides actual quality of the car. I won't list my own speculations about this, because all of you can imagine them as well as I could.

That first thing you say up there seems to imply that in your opinion it's PARTLY true -- which is what I'm trying to figure out. If it's even partly true, then IT'S TRUE.

The discussion isn't over whether it's extremely true; just over whether it's partly true or not true at all.

MrChad

.......So, what's the answer? Have N.A. Acuras really been not at all superior to N.A. Hondas?
(In terms of driving/riding aspects only.)

--------

You just like post whoring don't you?


I've shown you proof, there is NO Acura car mfg.
There is no blue print for engineering an Acura. There is no Acura R&D.

Honda MFG. Tokyo Japan and the US take a car, Usually one with leather and alloys and a robust engine. This car 99.9% of the time is a Honda someplace else in the globe. This car has the H removed and the A attached and is sold at the Acura dealership--tada, it's an Acura. As is the case more and more since North America is the largest car consumer in the globe they build the cars here. They stick the A on here, and remove the A when they sell it in Europe and Japan.

The point is, the Acura is not built better, the Acura does not perform better because of the A, it performs as it was intended as a great Honda.

Ok here is your test:
Go to the Honda dealer, drive a fully loaded Accord 4cylinder and fully loaded Accord 6 cylinder.

Now go to the Acura dealer -- drive the TSX, or if you own one skip this step. Now, look all 3 cars over very well. Do you find a build quality difference. If you want to be really anal find an Accord with a VIN starting with "J" these come from Japan and compare them to the TSX, as the J Accord and the TSX came from the same plant. Is the leather the same? Is the body gap tolerance the same? Is the texture and feel of interior materials the same? Does the Acura have a fancier badge? Since we can't go to Japan and test a JDM Accord 2.4TL against the TSX this is our best comparo to comparo for build quality. They are the same.

As for Ozzman's point, I'm proud to own an Accord and I would rebadge my TSX and call it an Accord and look anyone in the eye. Why, I could give a hoot what image my car exudes. My car is modified for my tastes. Alas--I have diverged from the topic at hand.

If the TSX was the superior build of all the Accord chassis cars, why didn't it get the super German style-key w/ the built in buttons like the Accord and the (EURO-R Accord-japan)? Why does it have an out-dated fob like all the other Acura's? They didn't want you to notice the Accord keys are the same. They gave the TSX the same old fob as all other Acura's to maintane the Acura brand image. Personally I'd see if my TSX could have a Honda Accord key programed to it at the dealership so I could ditch the fob and have the way trick German style key--but that is just me :P

larchmont

Chad, I really get a lot out of your posts. Sorry if you're annoyed -- I wouldn't blame you. Indeed I'm being persnickety here, but it's about a point that a lot of people on here are very interested in. And really, you still haven't exactly answered the main questions -- not that you need to if you don't feel like approaching the issue that way.

Odessa pointed out a couple of specific differences between TSX and Euro Accord, at least as far as he is aware of. If these things are true, then indeed there are at least a couple of significant differences between the two cars. Nobody yet has said that Odessa's points aren't true.

As for the other main question -- which is really the central question on this issue, namely have the N.A. Acuras really not been any better in quality than the N.A. Hondas -- we've gotten a lot of great info that RELATES TO this question, but, as far as I can tell, no definitive answer. Yes, I know that all the Acuras have been "basically" the same as Hondas from other parts of the world; but even besides the doubts raised by the "basically" part of it, that comparison isn't highly relevant to the main question here.

As to the idea of checking out Hondas vs. Acuras and comparing them, I've done that, and I think the Acuras are better -- but admittedly I'm no expert, I don't know what to look for technically, and therefore my feelings are subject to all kinds of bias. That's why I'm asking, because you guys DO know.

larchmont

Maybe let me be clearer:

The extensive info from our knowledgeable posters has been mostly itemizing of the many things that are the same between Honda cars and Acura cars. But the question is, ARE THERE REALLY NO POSITIVE DIFFERENCES IN ACURA'S FAVOR? If there are even just SOME such differences, that could be significant. And, at least as far as I can tell, I don't see a clear denial of any positive differences.

Odessa's observations about differences between Euro Accord and TSX are of great interest, because those are exactly the kinds of "little" things that can make a significant difference. Even though that's a comparison of an N.A. car with a European car -- which isn't the most relevant kind of comparison for the main question here -- it's an example of how tricky the subject can be, and how closely we need to look at it before totally dismissing the idea of differences.

MrChad

Odessa's observations were flawed.

There is an exact duplicate to the TSX found in the [Accord 2.4TL JDM. in Japan the TSX 17" wheels and suspension are an option package--in the US it is not, remember it's not like it's free in the US] The JDM Accord Euro-R is not a Japanesse TSX. It is a 2.0liter ~220hp Type-R esk machine.

The 2.4TL model Accord found in Japan has the same HP and features as the US spec TSX.

I'll say it again:

Acura is a dealership, a warranty package, and special name associated with your Honda. The build quality and reliability are the same as any other Honda. It is not a build quality.

All features found on Acura model cars are found on some other Honda model as either a feature or an options. These options are usually standard to acura however.

If you are looking for a 200hp 4-cylinder leather Honda Accord with HID's you won't find it in NA because its sold as an Acura.

What do you justify as a superior diffence of items? Every items is a Honda item--that is my point?

larchmont

Thanks Chad. I'm glad you haven't just abandoned the discussion, as well you might have.

I get the point loud and clear that everything "Acura" is really made by Honda, and that all the features exist on Honda cars sold somewhere in the world.

I got that a long time ago.

But the main question is still unanswered. (See above.)

I do very much appreciate all of your great info. I've learned a lot I didn't know.

But it doesn't refute the belief of us American ignoramuses that the Acuras that have been sold in N.A. are (at least in some ways) better quality cars than the Hondas that have been sold in N.A. and which are (correctly) responsible for the notion in N.A. of what a "Honda" is.

Brad

That's VERY well put, Mr Chad! It's the same song I've been singing.

I've owned 3 Accords in the past 20 years, and I know what fine and capable cars they are, from ho-hum boring basic transportation to well-equipped and powerful cars--eeeks, family cars.

What we have seen here are the emotional responses to Acura's marketing position and marketing perception that would hope--or grope--to totally segregate the common Accord "family car" platform from the basis of various Acura models. That is, some take the suggestion that the TSX is an Accord as an insult. But that's exactly what the TSX is in one of the Accord's many product marketing variations around the world. It's called badge engineering with tweeks--very nice tweeks at that.

I'm buying my TSX because it IS an Accord, which to me lends a lot of credibility to the TSX. The trimmer styling of the TSX is beautiful and truer to traditional Accord styling, in contrast to the bloated squawky-awkward, disjointed, and non-harmonious styling of the 2003 NA Accords--both 4 door and 2-door models.

Honda nearly lost me as a customer were it not for the introduction of the TSX. I was at a total loss at what to replace my trusty 1990 Accord coupe. I was even considering something as drastic as a Mini Cooper, but that would have been for sentimental reasons.

larchmont

Exactly. I'm just trying to pin down whether the tweaks relate not just to frills, but to the guts as well. From the way the cars feel to me, I've thought "yes."

Then we could look at how significant those tweaks are.

BTW I likewise view the "Honda" part as a great positive, not an insult.

But I thought this part of the discussion was about whether those of us who view Acuras as better quality cars than Hondas (i.e. N.A. Hondas) actually do have some basis. That's been the focus in these last few posts, anyway.

Brad

That there are more Hondas out there to survey than Acuras might have something to do with it. Since Honda split its product line for NA into two units--Acura and Honda--and generally assigned the most expensive models (except Integra/RSX) to the Acura product line, maybe there are additional quality checks for the more expensive models (for example, an NSX or RL) than there is for a high-volume basic Civic. I would hope so! Consider how many Civics Honda sells compared to how many NSX's they sell--mass produced vs hand-built.

Another factor are the miserable Isuzu-built wagons that sported Honda or Acura labels, the Passport and the SLX. From what I've read, those had very high warranty costs for Honda. And naturally, those models impacted survey satifaction averages.

Also remember that in surveys outside of NA, that the entire product line is averaged under one brand name--Honda, whereas the NA market is unevenly split.

MrChad

I told you to end the quality debate. Go down and compare all the areas of quality on your Acura with all the areas of quality with an Accord that starts with the VIN "J" It was made at the same plant as the TSX and will have the same quality level. Thus, all Honda Accords are the same quality level.

Accords and TSX's are built the same, they use the same bolts, clips, jigs, and machine welds, and the same level a plastic and fabric through-out.

NA Acura owners can percieve a quality difference all they want, but a difference is not there. Trust me, I did this with the EX V6 Accord coupe and the CL when both were new.

Good Mooly Goo--this thread is repeating. [insert smiley here of smiley hitting head against wall-HARD!]

larchmont

I spoke to Chad on the chat last night, and it seems he's only moderately pissed at me, for which I'm grateful.

I'm still not 100% convinced. Chad (and Brad too) is extremely knowledgeable and very thorough, and he's done good by us to hang in so long in this obsessive interchange. I'm sure he's right about every specific that he's pointed out. But I know from long experience that just because someone says there's no difference between 2 things and that he's looked real hard and he didn't find any differences, and even when he's extemely knowledgeable and capable, that doesn't mean for sure that there aren't any differences. Even if there are only SOME differences, that could be a legitimate basis for the cars feeling and seeming significantly different -- as I still think they do. Remember what the relevant comparison is -- it's between Acuras and Hondas that have been available in North America.

I'm going to stop bothering Chad and Brad and the rest of you on this thread, but I'm planning on writing to Honda/Acura and asking THEM about this. If they can't point out any genuine specifics about how Acuras are superior to N.A. Hondas, there will be no escaping that any perception of superiority in Acuras is just an illusion.

P.S. Some specifics have been mentioned on this thread and elsewhere about actual superiority of TSX over the Euro Accord. Although this isn't the main relevant comparison here, it's a good example of what might be the case -- and no one has said they're not true. (See Odessa's stuff on this thread.)

MrChad

Please browse the JDM and UK honda web sites and you will find there is nothing US unique to the TSX save for the Acura specific logo'd parts.

Larch you keep saying no one has disputed Ods. comments?

Brad

Let's take that first Acura, the then semi-luxury Legend. Which Honda are you comparing it to? What else could you compare it to but the HONDA LEGEND, which is what the _same_ car is called everywhere else in the world outside of North America. That a more expensive car has higher quality feature sets is no surprise, but an Acura Legend is no better or no worse than a Honda Legend, made on the same assembly line. By marketing regions, there are certainly feature spec differences, but it's still profoundly the same car of the same quality. In fact, the Honda Legend is still called the Honda Legend outside of NA.

What _if_ the TSX had been introduced as a Honda branded car in North America with the exact same specs. Would it be of lesser quality because of the _badge_? I think not. And that's the point. It's an Accord (which has numerous regional feature spec variations) everywhere else in the world. Are these overseas Accords that come down the same Japanese assembly line as the TSX of lesser quality? No one has established that, and there's no logic to assume there are differences. That's up to marketing.

Some people covet marketing brand perception and defend it to no end; other people see through the smoked mirror marketing facade and take it for what it is. Some people have the utmost respect for Honda--the maker and producer of all Acuras.

larchmont

I think I see what the bottom line is gonna be here.

It looks like there is agreement that Acura models, considering each car as a whole rather than looking at each component and asking if it's unique -- at least the TSX, and presumably Acuras in general -- have been at least DIFFERENT than any Honda model. You've pointed out that there's no superiority in quality of any one given thing, and I guess you must be right (maybe we'll see if Honda/Acura has something to say about that). But when the overall constellation of things is a bit different, that creates the possibility that the overall car could have a better balance of things, to an extent that arguably it's a better car. Certainly it could feel and behave different -- which really is all that I am talking about.

Perhaps the best example is the TSX. Probably the most common praise about the car is that it seems greater than the sum of its parts, and greater than any spec on any of its parts.

Yes, maybe this is a stretch. Most objective observers, looking at this whole discussion, especially the facts from Chad, would probably say that my perception of superiority of Acura cars must be just an illusion.

But it's not a slam dunk.

Brad

Some points to consider:

- The global picture is very relevant, and isn't limited to only vehicles available in North America.

- To do any comparison, you compare apples with apples. There are many kinds of apples with different "personalities". Some are sweet; some are tart; some are mushy; some are firm; et cetera. I wouldn't compare an NSX with a Jazz or Hit, or an RL with a Civic or Insight.

That some people want to perceive something inherently superior quality-wise about an Acura over a Honda (or vice versa), you have to look outside the shell of what an Acura is and think globally. Acuras are by and large unknown outside of the North American market.

Honda divied up their product line with some overlap, with the higher-priced models being labeled as Acura and the lowest-priced models being labeled as Honda. In the middle, there are models that share more in common, such as the platform or chassis.

They did a wonderful job differentiating the Civic-platform-based Integra from the Civic, for example. The two cars look very different.

However perhaps the Acura marketing department does not expect most TSX owners to be aware of the JDM Accords or the Euro Accords, so they don't expect most people to make any association between the TSX and the Accord. Afterall, the TSX looks very different (and thank god I'm happy at that!) from the North America Accords.

Variations in product specifications can take on countless permutations. Others on this forum have been very clear to point out different tyre sizes, different upholstery, different suspension, different shocks, different paint, different engines, different fuel systems, drive trains, different trannies, different gov't requirements, et cetera. But these very same spec variations happen on countless other global car platforms. The labeling is but another product spec permutation of what is essentially and profoundly the same car.

I'm very happy with the introduction of the TXS. I would have been equally happy whether it was called an Acura or a Honda.

gogozy

they are both fine cars, just, i feel Honda cars are more like...workhorse... i reno my place last year and had my beloved 95 carry everything from Homedepot home(several trips over weeks for varies projects), 10' liminated kitchen countertop, 8' lumbers, french doors, floor sanding machine, pave stones, picnic table @#$#$#$%$@$ i close trunk and see the depot worker drop their jaw, the space design is amazing. that is my workhorse. but i will not do it with my new TSX..... but don't mind putting a H on it because H make me proud!!!

larchmont

I disagree totally. I'm sure you believe I'm missing the point, and being very dense to boot.

But really, you're missing THE point -- because (truly) you know too much.

Since you know so much, you're failing to see where the average ignoramus (like me) is LEGITIMATELY coming from.

Once upon a time, in North America there was only the Hondas, basically the Civics and Accords, and no Acura. Then came Acura, made by Honda, which was supposedly better. BETTER THAN WHAT? Well, as far as we here were concerned, BETTER THAN THE HONDAS THAT WE HAD HERE AND WHICH FORMED THE BASIS FOR OUR NOTION OF HONDAS. (And the Toyotas and Nissans etc., but let's forget about that; it'll just clutter the discussion.) And, as time has gone on, the comparison STILL is, to the Hondas that we have had here. So, if Acuras are superior to the Hondas that we have had here, that's a legitimate reason for our feeling that Acuras are superior. The fact that elsewhere in the word there are Hondas that may be just as good (or even exactly the same) doesn't address this point at all.

You're making it into an academic and (almost) moral point. But for us, it's not -- it's just whether Acuras are better than our Hondas. That's all that we're talking about. The fact that maybe "Acura" is no better than Honda in a more global sense (literally) is a completely different issue.

MrChad

Larch, I have yet again been beaten down by your dumbness. (If such a phrase can exist?)

You reapetedly ask for proof of the Acura/Honda difference. All that have contributed to this subject have academically shown that the manufactoring is the same. We have reapetedly demonstraited that the Acura complex was created by Honda marketing and gov't constraint as a way to sell more cars in North America. You come within inches in everyone one of your replies to admiting you understand as much. Now, of recent, you in so many words have stated that unless Honda itself tells you Acuras are Hondas you will never except the fact.

I think this issues comes down to several key points. One you (Larch) keyly lack a knowledge base of vehical manufactoring. (Just as I lack grammer and spelling.) This must help in clouding your understanding of our explinations to you. In addition, you must clearly (perhaps deep down in your psyci) hate the fact that your car could be a Honda.

The fact is; Acura is a dealership network, warranty package w/ roadside, and marketing campaign that sells Honda vehicals of equal quality/build as any other Honda. The bottom line is the TSX is a F&%%ing Wonderful car. If the TSX in its exact form was sold at the Honda dealer next to the current Accord and was called the Accord Euro-R spec model. It would still be a F@%%ing wonderful in the exact same right. (I might even love it more sans HID, leather, and lower the price.) The TSX is a wonderful car because it was made that way not because it is an Acura. For Pete's sake it was the Japanesse car of the year only it wears an H over there. The TSX is great because it is the TSX/Accord made by Honda. For anyone that thinks Acuras are wonderful because they are Acuras. I have one car for you--the SLX, if you thought that was superior to other Hondas you need your keys pulled away from you and your a$$ beat cherry red--it was a G%% D@## Isuzu Trooper POS!

larchmont

Chad, I'm genuinely embarrassed to be putting you through all this.
You're absolutely right, I lack the automotive knowledge to understand much of what's on here.

But I do understand this to the extent of gathering that we are largely approaching the subject in terms of completely different questions, because we have different frames of reference.

It's not the case at all that I will accept the answer only from Honda; it's that if Honda/Acura is unable to state in a clear and convincing way that N.A. Acura cars are superior to N.A. Honda cars, then that in itself obviously will put the subject to rest -- but I don't mean that's the ONLY thing that would do it. And no, I won't hate it that I actually drive and love a Honda. I WOULD be surprised, though, that I could have been so fooled and hypnotized by PR and image, but it would be fine.

Obviously you already KNOW the answer, in terms of your frame of reference, and any other frame of reference that you would regard as reasonable, and surely you're right. But I'm not sure you're giving credence to my frame of reference, which admittedly is a more ignorant one but which may very well be the frame of reference of most American drivers -- and legitimately so.

Lorne Miller

...maybe you guys should go ask your dealer whats taking place on a world wide basis with regards to the "Acura" name, I have been told that in order to more effectively compete with some of the well known european brands, the Acura name will be introduced soon outside of the North American marketplace. So your argument can now go on forever, as there will be Acuras and Hondas side by side everywhere. If we really want to get stupid about it, Cadillacs, Chevy's, Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles should all just have GMC badges on them, along with rebadging all Mercury products with blue Ford ovals. If you really get your jollies from wasting money on Honda badges and taking the painstaking time to remove the Acura ones, why not go all the way and come up with some other totally ficticious name as well. By the way, my current ride is a car made only in Canada and sold only at Acura dealerships in Canada, it is based on a Honda Civic sedan, but only shares 40% of the parts with the Civic sedan, the mechanicals are the same as those found in the Civic Si coupe, with the body panels for the trunk, rear bumper and valance, and the entire front of the car, including different headlights and turn signals being totally unique to this vehicle. It was called an Acura 1.6EL. I am looking forward to getting an Acura TSX in the near future, I will consider it to be an Acura, which is a proud division of the Honda Motor Company.

'99 Acura 1.6EL Clover Green Pearl/Ivory AT

joedokes

Hey Lorne could you please post a pic of your car, or a link to a pic. Thanks
I have never seen an Acura 1.6 EL



Joe D

larchmont

OK, let's put it this way. What do y'all think Honda/Acura would say to such an inquiry?

Suppose it were put to them this way (I'm practicing for the real letter):

As a long-time Acura owner, I would be pleased if you could reply to the following inquiry.

I am one of your many thrilled TSX customers. The car has been everything that I hoped it would be. In fact, I have been so enthusiastic that I have been an active participant on two internet boards, most recently "acura-tsx.com." My name on these sites is "larchmont," and as is evident from my contributions, I am an avid fan.

A question that frequently comes up is the relation between "Honda" cars and "Acura" cars. Of course we all regard BOTH as excellent and superior cars. But from there, we have some divergence. Many members, including myself, have the impression that Acuras are, in significant ways, "superior" to Hondas. However, many others, particularly those with the greater automotive knowledge, assert that there is no significant difference in quality between "Acuras" and "Hondas."

We are aware that Acura currently is a name that is used only in North America, and that most if not all "Acuras" have been very similar to cars sold as Hondas elsewhere in the world. But in this context the question is solely with regard to cars that have been sold in the U.S. and elsewhere in North America. What we are wondering is: Excluding "bell and whistle" factors, on which Acuras obviously are superior -- i.e. looking only at what might be called the "driving and riding" aspects -- is it true that Acuras are superior to the "Hondas" that have been sold in North America in any significant respects? And if so, in what specific ways is this the case?

I would emphasize that regardless of the answers, we will love our cars no less. Most of us either own TSX's currently or are planning to own them in the near future; many of the rest of us drive Hondas, especially Accords. It is a friendly camaraderie among us, and occasionally an enjoyable rivalry. We know that the cars are brothers (or sisters if you will), and so are we.

Thank you for your consideration. I look forward to any reply that you may wish to provide.

So, what would they say? Here's how I would handicap it:

(a) No reply -- 10%
(b) A very limited reply not addressing anything -- 20%
(c) A reply saying basically (not directly, but real close to it) that there's no significant difference -- 5%
(d) A reply explaining very well and convincingly that there are significant differences -- 35%
(e) A bullshit reply -- 30%

larchmont

While we're waiting for Lorne to wake up and post his pic, I thought I'd give you this link, which shows some pics:

http://www.fsa.ulaval.ca/personnel/paradisj/acura1.6el/

joedokes

Hey Larch thanks for the link.

Speaking of waking up, it's almost 4:00 am in NY. Do you sleep???


Joe D

MrChad

Larch, I can no longer answer your replies....
I will now be this threads post whore...

For me personally I would love to have the ultimate Accord.
Accord Type-R or the JDM Euro-R. Well the JDM Euro-R was the only one to make it through the model change. And if anyone takes the time to research this car and look at it's specs--woo-hoo! Euro-R

Well, the Euro-R isn't available in this country. But, the TSX is kinda close for me. 6-speed (not as close ratio as the Euro-R) 17" wheels, No recaros's like the Euro-R, No 2.0 liter Hand built iVTEC engine making ~220hp(220PS) but the 2.4 at 200hp isn't giving up much save for its ultra long 100mm SE-R type stroke does limit it's Reving. So all things considered the TSX is likely as close to a Euro-R as I will ever see up close. And for that reason I will have to settle for one. Or more currectly, I have to beg the wife to settle for one when we sell her Spyder in a year or so
Hey, at least the TSX is WAY closer to the Euro-R then my Cord EX 5-speed was to the Accord UK Type-R. And after nearly 4 years of hard work I think I finally have the suspension to rival the Euro-R 2000 edition, however, that engine thing still kinda has me beat :P Help, someone needs to make a professional quality K20 or K24 engine swap mount kit for the 98-02 Accord, and wire harness converter so I can be twice as lazy I don't see this happaning, EVER.

Larch:
What features do you feel make the TSX or Acura line superior to Honda's? Surely some thing other then marketing plays a role for you. Instead of me trying to sell you Acura is a Honda, why don't you sell me on why Acura is better, at least in your minds eye? I assume you own the TSX why do you feel its better then the Accord EX or V6 USDM. And granted looks or objective. Believe it or not--I like the looks of the USDM 4dr and the TSX--call me silly-I just love Accords

provench

I guess I don't get all this ....

Acura = Honda that comes standard with a ton of stuff, better warranty, tend to be the high end Honda products

Honda = A great car

So using some algebraic substitutions ...

A = High end H product + Loaded Options + Better warranty

A = High end great car product + Loaded Options + Better warranty

It's all about marketing and configuration variation ... the name Acura just specifies a certain type of Honda variation and config options to expect ...

Can't we all get along?

MrChad

We all get along:

Larch just likes to get him selfed at.

ClutchPerformer

...more like at!

larchmont

Thanks for not banning me, Prov!

Yeah, like Chad said, we're getting along fine. Yeah, I'm being a pain in the neck, and yeah, he thinks I'm being stupid, or that I AM stupid -- and that's right, I am, but not exactly in the way that he thinks.

IMO, what Prov is saying seems exactly what I've been saying, or trying to say, but in a different way.
I think this whole thing is just how we look at it, and how much we make of small differences.

Chad: Indeed I don't expect you to answer my questions, many of which (in general) are hair-splitting, or at a much lower automotive level than where you are, or both. But, I'd sure be interested to know how you think Acura/Honda might reply, if you feel like thinking about it.

Regarding what features make me like Acura over Honda, I thought you could tell from what I've been saying that IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH "FEATURES." For me it's just the overall question of how the car behaves and feels, with extra brownie points thrown in if one car is smaller than another. I also think that except for the "smaller" part of the equation, that's how MOST car buyers decide their preferences -- not on features, and not on anything technical.

dnb

My guess is an engineer would say "b" or "c" while someone in marketing/sales would say "d". Reasonable arguments can be made for either case.

Let me start off with a much simpler example: Suppose Honda offers model Y which has standard cloth seats. Acura sells model Z which is identical to model Y except for the standard seat cover material, which is leather. Now, is the Acura "better" than the Honda? Does the leather improve the riding and ownership experience?

I don't think we'll all agree on the answers to the above questions here, nor will we be able to resolve the more complex cases brought forth in this discussion.

*sigh* BTW, participating in this discussion takes more work than real work.

Lorne Miller

...I am finally awake, didn't get to the sites til later, here's some shots of my '99 1.6EL, that's my son at the wheel, not me...enjoy!!

Lorne Miller

BuddySol

Actually, your model year EL was based off the Honda Domani.

larchmont

No, sir.

Good example. In a way of course the answer would be "yes," but if that's all that they (or anyone) could point out, then I would come out completely on Chad and Brad's side here -- even given my different "frame of reference."

Thanks for taking a look, DNB!