Dan Martin

Not a judge eh?




Well, best of luck. I know ipods are important, but man this seems a little crazy to me. I can understand being upset about buying something that doesn't work, but legal action might be a little over the top. At best, I can see you getting a refund for maybe a couple hundred bucks. Seems more trouble than it's worth IMO. I'm certain there will be a fix for it eventually.

HollywoodTSX

Acura says there will not be. Do you have an inside line?

The issue here folks is not wether or not you agree that the iPod functionality is necessary. The ISSUE is that Acura made a commitment. It doesn't matter if the commitment is about the airbags or the engine or the iPod, their word is their word, and they've shown no interest in keeping their commitments or the maintaining the satisfaction of their owners. They simply don't care, and that's why I regret buying an Acura and not a Lexus or BMW. Those are true premium brands, where we just got a re-badged Japanese econo box. The commitment to the customers of true premium brands is light years apart.

ACURA DOESN'T HONOR THEIR WORD OR CARE ABOUT THEIR CUSTOMERS. There's no other way to look at it. Law suit or not, I assure you that I and others will tell everyone who will listen when they ask about our new car that we would never buy from them again. This will cost them more that just fixing it would have, and that is sad. Companies need to be taught that doing the right thing is less expensive than screwing people.

Zephrem

Whoa. Even though I'm not pleased with the way the Music Link works or the XM bleed issue, the quoted language is way too strong. Acura builds great cars, and it is my understanding and experience that they really attempt to get it right on the customer service side.

Acura was wrong on the music link's operation. Mistakes happen. When it learned it didn't work with the 2006 TSX HU, it did the correct thing by withdrawing it from the market until it gets fixed. It is my understanding, through my dealer, that Acura/Honda engineers are working on the TSX compatibility and interface issues in response to consumer complaints. And the dealer did the right thing by giving me the option to have it removed and refund the price paid.

What I take away from this is that Acura listens to its customers, and is trying to fix the issue. And, my dealer has provided me with excellent support, including the offer of a refund. Sorry, but I can't conclude that Acura refuses to stand behind either its car or its product, or it doesn't "care about its customers" as you suggest. My experience is exactly the opposite.

joerockt

Great, just what we need, ANOTHER constant whiner. Your shit is getting old...

We get it, you're upset, move the fuck on...

Dan Martin

Best rant of the day.

Get real. Have you really looked at the comments on some of the BMW forums about customer service? Next time you're over there, search for "vanos problem" and see what comes up.

It's an optional IPOD LINK!!!! Not a problem with your engine, transmission, or the wheels falling off. I'm sure they have someone looking at it, but they aren't going to fly in a hundred asians from head office to analyze your car.

I can assure you that nobody at Honda sat at in a boardroom saying "hey, you know what? Let's make an ipod link that doesn't actually work, that way we can scam thousands of dollars from our unsuspecting customers." Please. There is no conspiracy.

The product didn't work, so they pulled it from the market. Obviously they do care about their customers, otherwise they would keep selling it.

My suggestion: Go back to your dealer, get your $250 back, and take a nice drive on the way home. VTEC sounds better than iPod anyhow. When/if they release a new version of the iPod link that works, go back and buy one.

Dan Martin

Exactly.

Kudos for dealing with your problem in a professional way.

GIBSON6594

Any of you guys with pipe dreams of law suits against Honda because they are having temp glitches with there accessories are in for a rude awakening

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Isn't this guy hilarious, Dan?

Oh, and I fixed your wording for you.

Zephrem

That's right. The rude awakening will be when Acura caves, gives the class action attorneys $2.5M in fees, and every impacted individual gets $5 off their next service or accessory purchase.

GIBSON6594

yea? how big of a class will be included in that action?

GIBSON6594

Honda has some of the best lawyers in the world sitting around waiting to chew this kinda shit up and spit it out. People think that they can just sue and that's it. They will motion you right the fuck out of the courtroom.

Zephrem

Potentially all Honda/Acura owners who purchased the accessory and don't opt out of the settlement. Who knows how many music links have been sold?

Zephrem

You don't understand the dynamic with class actions and plaintiffs' counsel, do you? Or the pressure on the companies to settle... we're talking about an unfair advertising claim, which gets lots of momentum quickly in CA.

GIBSON6594

if you understood it, you wouldn't be saying what you are saying. But you go ahead, file your notice of claim and watch Honda's attorneys tear it up in your face. There is no pressure to settle here. This kind of thing happens all the time, what are you going to sue for, libel? good luck

Ron Parr

I'm not suggesting that we or anybody else sue Acura over a delay.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say Acura never figures out how to make the iPod link work with the TSX. Would I personally sue Acura and/or my dealer for this? Probably not b/c my time is too valuable.

Could somebody sue Acura and/or their dealer and win? Almost certainly. Manufacturers have been forced to pay for things like this in the past. What would the plaintiffs get? Probably not much - but something.

When you sell something and promise that it will perform a certain way, you can be held to that promise. Including all kinds of disclaimers in a product brochure does not relieve you of the burden of this promise - for two reasons: (1) the law, and (2) common sense.

First, the law: (I'm not a lawyer, BTW.) In most states, a seller cannot escape an implied warranty of merchantability. In some states, it can be escaped with really explicit "As Is" warnings on the product, but this is not the case here. We did not buy a product advertised "As Is". The implied warranty of merchantability means that the product will do what the seller claims it will do. It's implied b/c the seller doesn't need to state it. As consumers, we all get this automatically.

Second, common sense: Acura (or anybody else) cannot write language in a brochure that excuses them from delivering on the things promised in the brochure when you purchase the product. Suppose, I took delivery of my TSX and found that instead of a 2.4L VTEC engine, it had a mouse on a treadmill. Could Acura then say, "Tough luck - our brochure said that specifications are subject to change w/o notice." Of course not. Acura could choose to inform me that they can no longer offer the product as specified in the brochure because the specifications had changed. If I don't want the deal, then I'm disappointed but it's the end of the story. I can't sue them because they can no longer offer exactly what was in the brochure. However, once we swap cash for goods, the goods had better be what was promised when they took my cash.

There's a long history of class action lawsuits over manufacturers failing to deliver on promised features. A recent example that comes to mind is the Motorola v710 phone, which had certain bluetooth features crippled:

http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/f...tices/v710.jsp

Certainly, some cases are "laughed out of court" as was suggested earlier. However, I doubt blatant failure to deliver on a clear promise (as would be the case if the iPod link is never fixed) would be particularly amusing to the courts.

Zephrem

California 17200. Sorry, I do understand it ... all too well. Look, I'm not advocating for a class action lawsuit, but there are many attorneys that would file such a claim and it would not be laughed out of court.

Dan Martin

Yes, we need more lawsuits.

Colin

This was pulled from the market so quickly, I'd bet there are only a few hundred people affected. Acura sold 3800 in December and 3200 TSXs in January, how many of these could have been affected? John and Hollywood, I'm curious, what do you want from Acura (that you're not getting now)?

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

An iPod integration that apparently was the only reason for buying the car.

Dan Martin

The solution:



It's half the price of the Acura Ipod link and you can take it with you!

Colin

But seriously, I'm curious what they want Acura to do?

Zephrem

Actually, I bet there is about 100-200 TSX owners impacted. It was on the market for, what, two or three weeks in January, the dealers didn't know much about them, and each dealership only received a limited amount. But, add in all Music Link sales for other Acura and Honda models and the number of people impacted may be much higher ... by way of example, I've heard that they are selling rapidly at our local Honda dealer and people coming back and complaining about the interface.

Ron Parr

If there's a problem with the head unit that interferes with iPod integration, then they should (1) fix this problem and (2) give people who have buggy head units free upgrades/firmware flash/whatever to the fixed head unit if they purchase the music link.

Let's think about this: They haven't promised something fundamentally impossible here. They can make it work with other head units in other cars. This is a compatibility problem that can almost certainly be addressed by some kind of modification to the music link and/or the head unit.

The only question is whether they're willing to take the steps necessary to fix it and pay for the labor (and possible part swaps) to make good on their original promise.

Setting all of the legal and moral issues aside, Acura should do this just because it's good business. When I had my first Acura, the dealer did some free repairs for me when I was one month past warranty. They had no legal obligation to do this, but the repair was authorized by corporate and I saw how it was entered in the computer: "Customer good will" This was the right thing to do, and I don't mean the morally or legally right thing. It was the selfishly right thing for them to do b/c it built good will and increased my likelihood of buying an Acura product in the future.

Good will matters. Keeping your promises matters. It's what makes people come back for their next car and what makes them suggest the product to their friends. Stiffing a customer to save a few bucks on a $30K car: That's penny wise in the short run and dollar foolish in the long run.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

There's nothing to indicate that Acura will not do this. From what I have heard, they are indeed working on a fix to correct the problem. I can imagine that if they get the appropriate fix, dealers will be notified to provide the updated software/firmware/hardware under warranty to those owners who have experienced problems.

And all I've seen thus far has been nothing but mindless ramblings from one particular lunatic who seems so obsessed with the fact that his add-on accessory didn't work that he can't even enjoy the fact that he bought one of the best cars available on the market.

Colin

Thaks for your post, and it makes more sense than a lawsuit!

So let me play the "devils advocate" here, and please understand that I'm not wishing in any way that this is what happens. Suppose that Acura is locked into a contract for the radios from their supplier. This spec cannot be changed so modifying the headunit is not possible.

Now we focus our attention on the supplier of the Music Link. What if this supplier cannot make it work? Acura has already pulled it from the market, and there are a few people with the units (as Dan said maybe 200-300). I'm certain these will all get a full (including labor) refund if they want it. Is any further action really necessary? Is any desired?

Tintin

Very good point!

Ron Parr

I hope you are correct. It's the smart thing for them to do, both from a legal, moral and business standpoint. It would be nice if there were some kind of official statement to this effect. However, the fact that they have altered the press releases on their web page to make it look like they never promised this doesn't bode well.

Here's the original press release:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4102276&EDATE=

Here's what's now on Acura/Honda's web page:

http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1018?m...asc&archives=t

You have to wonder about a firm that goes back and changes the text on a press release "archived" on their web page, while leaving the original date unaltered, to give the impression that they promised something different from what was actually promised.

So much for good will...

Zephrem

This alteration, without any type of "edited" comment and making it appear as if it was the original release, is perhaps the worst action Acura has taken regarding the Music Link. It may have been because of Hollywood's nastygram regarding the press release and the fear of a lawsuit. Nevertheless, it doesn't warrant that kind of unethical marketing behavior. On the other hand, perhaps "ethical marketing" is an oxymoron.

I've always held up Honda as a "good company" (trying to develop green, safe, utilitarian cars and other technology with certain high-minded standards), but this action has taken them down a peg in my eyes. They could have simply added a statement that the Music Link is no longer available for the 2006 TSX.

HollywoodTSX

That's easy - to make it work and deliver on their promise.

Look, there's no question that it *can* be done. Other manufacturers are doing so with ease. The ONLY question is at what cost. Clearly Acura made some bad choices and are now hoping this will quietly go away. They made it extremely clear that they are NOT working on it. It's a done deal.

I don't know what you do for a living, but for most of us who are professionals when we make a commitment we have to stick to it, even if sometimes we loose money on the deal. I don't care of they have to replace the Nav. I want what I paid for. That's part of the cost of doing business, and that's what makes a company ethical and brings repeat customers. Honda clearly needs to be reminded of that.

It's sad that even here some people have so misunderstood this issue they dismiss it as petty. What they're not getting is that it's not WHICH promise they've broken that's the issue. An iPod is NOT the end of the world. It's that they've broken ANY promise that's the problem. It's NOT about iPod, it's about commitment, it's about ethics, and it's about honest business.

HollywoodTSX

Yes - simply to "make it work for those affected prior to the recall of the claims at any cost up to and including replacing the unit and/or purchasing third party products to provide the funtionality that was claimed".

I've got a lawyer looking into this. Anyone interested in participating please contact me.

Colin

I'm sure if it was easy, it would be working now. A supplier approached Acura and "sold" someone on this idea. It is obvious that either the prototypes functioned properly, or this one glitch was not detected in time. Brochures are printed months before the cars are released in November, and the specs were probably "locked" sometime around August. This is the reason for the disclaimer, some thngs can change without notice.

As for what I do, I thought you knew: I sell Acuras for a living and have done so for 11 years now. I've tried to explain what I know from the dealers side (with whatever 'inside" info I might know) If you are correct and they are not working on a fix , what then? I'm afraid it's not as easy as "waving a magic wand" over your car and fixing the problem.

So proactively, are you going to try to Lemon Law the car? File a lawsuit with what goal in mind? Financial compensation beyond the cost of the part? In the end, its obvious you feel betrayed by this, and I'm not trying to be a jerk. But Acura has a problem with this, they've pulled it to prevent further problems. How should they handle the 4000ish 2006 TSXs sold in Dec and part of Jan?

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

For someone who claims to be 38 years old, you're rather naive in your belief of how businesses operate.

Ron Parr

What he has described is the way businesses ought to operate and the way the law, in fact, requires them to operate.

Does it always work out this way? Of course not. The legal process isn't perfect and the gain from going through the process may not justify the cost, so people manage to get away with things more often than they should - but not always.

Dan Martin

I can't understand why a refund isn't enough. It's like Hiroyuki Yoshino kissed his wife and he wants retribution.

-The product didn't work as advertised.
-It was pulled from the market.
-Refunds are being offered to those affected.

Shit happens, and it sounds like Honda has handled it pretty well if you ask me.

If it gets fixed, buy it again.

Ron Parr

A refund on what - the music link or the car?

If Acura came out with the music link accessory as a separate thing and never implied compatibility with specific models as part of their efforts to sell those models, then I would agree that a music link refund would be sufficient.

The problem is that the car doesn't function as advertised. The car was advertised as having a capability to connect to a music link device that had certain functions. This was listed as a feature of the car itself and was part of Acura's marketing to influence people to purchase the car.

I don't think a refund on the car would be a workable solution. The best choice would be to figure out a way to fix the problem. Failing that, they could offer a discount on an alternative. For example, they could offer a discounted connection package for the AUX jack/power outlet in the armrest, and an RF remote with some kind of clip or bracket to mount it nicelely somehwere in easy reach. It's not a perfect solution and not exactly what they promised, but it would demonstrate a good faith effort to compensate customers for a warranty violation.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Seriously, IF you based your entire decision to spend $30k on a vehicle around the availability of a THIRD-PARTY accessory, you have some other problems to think about.

And the car functions just fine. It's the MusicLink that does not function properly. To request a refund on the whole car is absolutely ludicrous.

And marketing, regardless of who is doing it, is supposed to influence people. If it didn't, then what is point of doing marketing?

And the MusicLink was never listed as a feature of the CAR. It was listed as a feature of an available ACCESSORY!! If the accessory fails to live up to expectations, then that needs to be corrected. But to say that the whole car fails to function properly because of an add-on accessory, that is not standard equipment, is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

GIBSON6594

seriously, what planet do you live on? I'm really curious

Ron Parr

That's a straw man. I never suggested this.
No - the car does not function as promised. The car was advertised as being compatible with a music link device that had certain features. The music link device exists and works fine with other cars.
This is why I specifically said in the message to which you replied that a refund on the car would not be workable solution.
This seems like another straw man. I never suggested that influencing people was bad. Promising and not delivering is bad. This is why we have laws to protect consumers.
The ability to connect to the music link accessory was listed as a feature of the car. That's a fact. There's nothing stupid about expecting the car to have the feature it was advertised to have.

If you think that expecting a product to perform as advertised is the stupidest thing you have heard, then I would love to sell you some things!

Ron Parr

Seriously, I live on earth.

Do you live on one where there are no laws or where class action lawsuits against large companies always fail?

There's so much history on things like this that you seem to ignoring. I'm curious: What makes you think that Honda/Acura is different from other huge corporations that have settled with customers over problems like this - either voluntarily or through the courts.

You seem to think that Honda/Acura is special in some way. Please explain that to us.

Reach

This is just one more data point to suggest Hollywood people don't understand real life.

You're clearly not poor. You could probably afford a nicer 'quality' vehicle such as a BMW or Audi and probably not care like the rest of us when litle things like 'mechanical issues' happen. Just go buy one! You car *should* make you happy, seriously! If yours doesn't, sell it, eat them meager 1g depreciation (it'd be more on another car!) and buy something else.

This is by large an enthusiast board, with members who are happy with their car and don't like ridiculous complaints and empty threats about minutia functionality. Look at the guys who are patiently dealing with enfig or logjam for their 3rd or 4th Blitzsafe, still hoping they get it right.

<napoleon dynamite voice> GOSH.